ARCHIVE: The Apostle Pauls affirms that a Christian can sin.

[elected4ever]

That club is so big you will probably never notice him. :baby:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Does anyone have any wading boots? This is really getting deep.

 

[PKevman]

If Christians do not sin, how would you explain the struggle that Paul speaks of in Romans 7:13-25?
Would you be among those who believe he is talking about himself before he was saved?

For context here is the text:

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

When we sin we are in the flesh, when we do right we are following the Spirit. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. I find it impossible to believe this text is talking about Paul as an unredeemed sinner, BECAUSE an unredeemed sinner is a slave to sin, and there is no war going on inside.

 

[PKevman]

ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Two types of sinners:
1. Saved sinners on their way to Heaven.
2. Unsaved sinners on their way to Hell.

 

[Poly]

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.

".....the one who wills to do good"?

Which one is that? Could that be..... the Christian? :think:

 

[PKevman]

".....the one who wills to do good"?

Which one is that? Could that be..... the Christian? :think:

Of course it is.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Two types of sinners:
1. Saved sinners on their way to Heaven.
2. Unsaved sinners on their way to Hell.

I realize the following is semantical but I do not typically refer to Christians as "sinners" (used as a noun), because Sozo, e4e and Lighthouse are correct to distinguish our identity in Christ. However, I do use the word "sin" as a verb the way the apostle Paul uses it.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. 7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. 9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.

Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil.

Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

1Corinthians 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.​

 

[PKevman]

I realize the following is semantical but I do not typically refer to Christians as "sinners" (used as a noun), because Sozo, e4e and Lighthouse are correct to distinguish our identity in Christ. However, I do use the word "sin" as a verb the way the apostle Paul uses it.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. 7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. 9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.

Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil.

Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

1Corinthians 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.​

I do understand that a lot of it is just semantics. But we agree on the principle that Christians struggle with sin. Christ purchased a victory that we could not have had without His sacrifice. Before we are saved we are slaves to sin. After we are saved we no longer have to live in sin, but can now have victory over sin through the power of the Holy Spirit who dwells within us. This doesn't change the fact that we still live in the sinful body, and when we obey its desires, we sin.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I do understand that a lot of it is just semantics. But we agree on the principle that Christians struggle with sin. Christ purchased a victory that we could not have had without His sacrifice. Before we are saved we are slaves to sin. After we are saved we no longer have to live in sin, but can now have victory over sin through the power of the Holy Spirit who dwells within us. This doesn't change the fact that we still live in the sinful body, and when we obey its desires, we sin.

I agree with that.

You realize that now you are going to hell with me right?

 

[PKevman]

I agree with that.

You realize that now you are going to hell with me right?

Golleee I hope Logos is right then!

 

[elected4ever]

Can someone preach the wrong gospel due to bad teaching?

And don't sell me short..... both you and Sozo have both already told me that I worship a different Jesus than you do.

Yes they can and if they believe the wrong gospel it still adds up to unbelief.

I have a better understanding of where you are coming from now. While I don't express it as you do it amounts to the same thing. I express it better than you because I use discernment in defining who is doing what. It is our relationship in and to this world that Paul is addressing and not our relationship to God. We do miss the mark often in our dealings with the world and we must be taught. That involves the mind that must learn a different skill than what we received as just being human. The battlefield of the mind is another subject for a different tread.

I sure hope I was wrong in my judgement. I do not wont to believe such a thing and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt because of a what is a better understanding of what you are trying to say. The jury is still out on that. I will need more evidence.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

It is our relationship in and to this world that Paul is addressing and not our relationship to God.

You do believe Christ is God, don't you?

1Corinthians 8:12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.


...you sin against Christ.
...you sin against Christ.
...you sin against Christ.
...you sin against Christ.
...you sin against Christ.
...you sin against Christ.

The word sin can be used as a verb, Paul used it that way you should as well.

 

[kmoney]

I am taking your side. It is more balanced and biblical.

Ok. :think:

 

[elected4ever]

If Christians do not sin, how would you explain the struggle that Paul speaks of in Romans 7:13-25?
Would you be among those who believe he is talking about himself before he was saved?

For context here is the text:

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

When we sin we are in the flesh, when we do right we are following the Spirit. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. I find it impossible to believe this text is talking about Paul as an unredeemed sinner, BECAUSE an unredeemed sinner is a slave to sin, and there is no war going on inside.

I am one of those that believes that Paul was speaking of his preconversion experience. An experience that we we all had in common with him before salvation.

 

[elected4ever]

You do believe Christ is God, don't you?

1Corinthians 8:12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.


...you sin against Christ.
...you sin against Christ.
...you sin against Christ.
...you sin against Christ.
...you sin against Christ.
...you sin against Christ.

The word sin can be used as a verb, Paul used it that way you should as well.

Who do you think is sinning against Christ? The person we are in Christ or the flesh that hates Him? Where is all decisions made? From what sources do we get information? Does dead mean dead like pushing up daisies or separated from God? You are using no discernment what so ever to determine anything. You are missing the whole point of what Paul is saying. You cannot be one thing in one place and something else somewhere else. Is this the limit of you knowledge of the word and of God?

 

[kmoney]

Who do you think is sinning against Christ?

You are.

The person we are in Christ or the flesh that hates Him?

It doesn't matter, it's still you. Paul didn't say your flesh, he said YOU.

Where is all decisions made?

From your will and mind.


I laugh at your attempt to twist that scripture to fit your view. :chuckle:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Who do you think is sinning against Christ? The person we are in Christ or the flesh that hates Him? Where is all decisions made? From what sources do we get information? Does dead mean dead like pushing up daisies or separated from God? You are using no discernment what so ever to determine anything. You are missing the whole point of what Paul is saying. You cannot be one thing in one place and something else somewhere else. Is this the limit of you knowledge of the word and of God?

Yet Paul uses the word "sin" just as I do.

If Paul were here on TOL you would be rebuking him (possibly even telling him he isn't saved). :shocked:

If a person who is a Christian sins, even if it's just their flesh that sins, that person still sins. (just as the Bible states so clearly)

 

[Poly]

Who do you think is sinning against Christ?

The one who wills to do good.

Roman 7:21".... that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good"

 

[Poly]

I laugh at your attempt to twist that scripture to fit your view. :chuckle:

Sometimes it's almost painful. Almost as painful as watching an episode of "The office".

 

[elected4ever]

You are.

It doesn't matter, it's still you. Paul didn't say your flesh, he said YOU.

From your will and mind.


I laugh at your attempt to twist that scripture to fit your view. :chuckle:

When are you going to get saved? Until you do shut up.