ARCHIVE: Finding my way

[docrob57]

The only part I had was to follow God's truth and stop being rebellious. Is it your belief that God elects some people for rejection and that this was preordained?

Yes, and that is the position of all orthodox Protestantism. Or at least it was.

 

[docrob57]

I already took it upon myself to answer a while back. Did you have another question you would like to ask me?

My question to you and to all Arminians and even Open Theists is this. How is it that you, in your flesh are better than those that have not accepted God's gift of salvation? And if you are better, can you truly not boast of your own merit in obtaining salvation, at least to some small extent?

 

[docrob57]

Is the entire mind "carnal"? Is man's spirit entirely carnal? That fact that many people come to Christ would seem to suggest that there is something in us that wants to be with God I would think.

Yes, the unregenerated mind and spirit are entirely carnal. The fact that many people come to Christ is due to the fact that, per Scripture, God chooses them and enables them to come.

 

[docrob57]

God could have predestined the entire future, by preprogramming every action of every molecule. But out of love, He didn't. He chose not to create a reality that was for "show".

God values our freewill more than our earthly security.

We could all lock our kids in the closet and they would never scrape their knee's learning to ride their bike but the trade-off isn't worth it.

What about Columbine, something made much of in the debate with Lamerson, did that happen because God didn't know it would? Wouldn't God have suspected something when He saw those guys leaving for school with guns?

 

[docrob57]

again, I believe that that has to do with Isreals present stuggles, specifically Babylon

In the context of the present discussion, that really doesn't matter. Who is the One who ordained the havoc here?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

What about Columbine, something made much of in the debate with Lamerson, did that happen because God didn't know it would? Wouldn't God have suspected something when He saw those guys leaving for school with guns?

Huh??? Of course!

God knows our hearts He knows our intentions He knows what we plan to do.

That is a million miles from God directing Columbine for His glory :vomit:

God grieved that awful day. Columbine was the work of evil hands not the work of a righteous God.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

My question to you and to all Arminians and even Open Theists is this. How is it that you, in your flesh are better than those that have not accepted God's gift of salvation? And if you are better, can you truly not boast of your own merit in obtaining salvation, at least to some small extent?

Better?

I wouldn't say better, all men deserve separation from God but God as a standing offer for redemption. God asks US to humble ourselves before Him. If we humble ourselves before Him through His mercy and grace He allows our relationship to be repaired through Christ's faithfulness on the cross.

God does all the work in repairing this relationship therefore we have nothing to boast about. All God asks is that we choose Him. All God asks is that we say "I do".

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Yes, the unregenerated mind and spirit are entirely carnal. The fact that many people come to Christ is due to the fact that, per Scripture, God chooses them and enables them to come.

And all the rest are condemend without even the slightest hope for life.

That isn't the message of the Bible.

The good news is that there is hope for all men. Christ's work on the cross is big enough for all men.

 

[docrob57]

Huh??? Of course!

God knows our hearts He knows our intentions He knows what we plan to do.

That is a million miles from God directing Columbine for His glory :vomit:

God grieved that awful day. Columbine was the work of evil hands not the work of a righteous God.

It most certainly was not the work of a righteous God. However, God uses unrighteous instruments to accomplish His purposes. And sometimes His purpose in the expression of righteous wrath.

 

[docrob57]

And all the rest are condemend without even the slightest hope for life.

That isn't the message of the Bible.

The good news is that there is hope for all men. Christ's work on the cross is big enough for all men.

No, that is what you want to believe, but it is not the message of the Bible. Indulge in a bit of introspection for a minute. I didn't say that you or anyone here is unsaved, or unChristian. I merely say that you did not play any part in your salvation. Why is that disturbing to you?

 

[docrob57]

Better?

I wouldn't say better, all men deserve separation from God but God as a standing offer for redemption. God asks US to humble ourselves before Him. If we humble ourselves before Him through His mercy and grace He allows our relationship to be repaired through Christ's faithfulness on the cross.

God does all the work in repairing this relationship therefore we have nothing to boast about. All God asks is that we choose Him. All God asks is that we say "I do".

You are still evading the question. Why do you say "I do" and Smiles or Zakath don't?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

It most certainly was not the work of a righteous God.

I agree.

However, God uses unrighteous instruments to accomplish His purposes. And sometimes His purpose in the expression of righteous wrath.

I thought you just said "It most certainly was not the work of a righteous God." but now your saying it was? :dizzy: Doc, if you can't type two sentences without contradicting yourself you need to re-examine your theology.

And it sickens me that you would say....

Students killed by God's "righteous wrath"....
Cassie Bernall....(17)
Steven Curnow.....(14)
Corey DePooter....(17)
Kelly Fleming.....(16)
Matthew Kechter...(16)
Dan Mauser........(15)
Daniel Rohrbough..(15)
Rachel Scott......(17)
Isaiah Shoels.....(18)
John Tomlin.......(16)
Lauren Townsend...(18)
Kyle Velasquez....(16)

Teachers killed by God's "righteous wrath"...
William "Dave" Sanders (47)

Others injured by God's "righteous wrath"....
Brian Anderson....(17)
Richard Castaldo..(17)
Jennifer Doyle....(17)
Stephen Eubanks...(17)
Nicholas Foss.....(18)
Sean Graves.......(15)
Makai Hall........(19)
Anne Hochhalter...(17)
Patrick Ireland...(17)
Joyce Jankowski...(45)
Michael Johnson...(15)
Mark Kintgen......(17)
Lance Kirklin.....(16)
Lisa Kreutz.......(18)
Adam Kyler........(16)
Stephanie Munson..(17)
Patricia Nielsen..(35)
Nicole Nowlen.....(16)
Jeanna Park.......(18)
Kasey Ruegsegger..(17)
Valeen Schnurr....(18)
Danny Steepleton..(17)
Mark Taylor.......(16)

I am friends with the father of Daniel Rohrbough and frankly your comments offend me deeply.

And then to add insult to injury you also are claiming that Harris and Klebold were God's hitmen.

 

[docrob57]

I agree.

I thought you just said "It most certainly was not the work of a righteous God." but now your saying it was? :dizzy: Doc, if you can't type two sentences without contradicting yourself you need to re-examine your theology.

And it sickens me that you would say....

Students killed by God's "righteous wrath"....
Cassie Bernall....(17)
Steven Curnow.....(14)
Corey DePooter....(17)
Kelly Fleming.....(16)
Matthew Kechter...(16)
Dan Mauser........(15)
Daniel Rohrbough..(15)
Rachel Scott......(17)
Isaiah Shoels.....(18)
John Tomlin.......(16)
Lauren Townsend...(18)
Kyle Velasquez....(16)

Teachers killed by God's "righteous wrath"...
William "Dave" Sanders (47)

Others injured by God's "righteous wrath"....
Brian Anderson....(17)
Richard Castaldo..(17)
Jennifer Doyle....(17)
Stephen Eubanks...(17)
Nicholas Foss.....(18)
Sean Graves.......(15)
Makai Hall........(19)
Anne Hochhalter...(17)
Patrick Ireland...(17)
Joyce Jankowski...(45)
Michael Johnson...(15)
Mark Kintgen......(17)
Lance Kirklin.....(16)
Lisa Kreutz.......(18)
Adam Kyler........(16)
Stephanie Munson..(17)
Patricia Nielsen..(35)
Nicole Nowlen.....(16)
Jeanna Park.......(18)
Kasey Ruegsegger..(17)
Valeen Schnurr....(18)
Danny Steepleton..(17)
Mark Taylor.......(16)

I am friends with the father of Daniel Rohrbough and frankly your comments offend me deeply.

And then to add insult to injury you also are claiming that Harris and Klebold were God's hitmen.

I'm sorry it sickens you, but does not God have the right to remove them from this life in accordance with His purposes? Whatever they might be.

And there is no contradiction. Harris and Kleibold sinned, their actions were vile. God is sovereign, He can use vile actions for His purposes.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

You are still evading the question. Why do you say "I do" and Smiles or Zakath don't?

They refuse to humble themselves.

Romans 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man — and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Notice how God says THEY did these things?

In fact... they are "without excuse"
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Yet if God predetermined their choice not only do they have an excuse they have a rock solid case.

 

[PKevman]

No, that is what you want to believe, but it is not the message of the Bible. Indulge in a bit of introspection for a minute. I didn't say that you or anyone here is unsaved, or unChristian. I merely say that you did not play any part in your salvation. Why is that disturbing to you?

Open Theists and even most people who would identify themselves as Armenians don't believe that we play any part in our salvation. Salvation is purely of God and by His grace. That doesn't change the fact that we have the ability to choose or reject that grace. Again, God's salvation is called a free gift. A free gift can either be accepted or rejected, but you did nothing to earn that free gift. For example at Christmas time if you buy your kids a gift, what did they do to earn it? Nothing, that is what makes it a gift. Now say your son chooses to accept that gift from you. Does it change the nature of the gift? No. Does it change the person offering the gift? No. Does it change the fact that he did nothing to earn it? No. So you see where Calvinists go horribly wrong is constantly trying to cling to saying that we believe we "play a part in our salvation" when we believe no such thing!

In summary: Choosing or rejecting the gift has nothing to do with the person who accepts or rejects the gift. It is still a free gift offered to them.

God's salvation is offered to all mankind. We can choose it or reject it. It is a gift!

A gift is not a gift if you are forced to take it. Then it is a burden.

God bless

 

[Nathon Detroit]

And there is no contradiction. Harris and Kleibold sinned, their actions were vile. God is sovereign, He can use vile actions for His purposes.

Lets focus in on that statement.

I agree God can use the vile actions of evil men and bring about good. But you are saying something much MORE than that. You are saying God orchestrates, plans, ordains the evil actions of evil men in every detail, and that is very different.

Do you feel comfortable with your own theology?

Will you admit here on TOL that you believe that every evil event for all of time was meticulously designed by God Himself?

Every time Harris and Klebold pulled the trigger and brutally ended each life that day it was by God's design.

Are you bold enough to affirm your own theology?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Open Theists and even most people who would identify themselves as Armenians don't believe that we play any part in our salvation. Salvation is purely of God and by His grace. That doesn't change the fact that we have the ability to choose or reject that grace. Again, God's salvation is called a free gift. A free gift can either be accepted or rejected, but you did nothing to earn that free gift. For example at Christmas time if you buy your kids a gift, what did they do to earn it? Nothing, that is what makes it a gift. Now say your son chooses to accept that gift from you. Does it change the nature of the gift? No. Does it change the person offering the gift? No. Does it change the fact that he did nothing to earn it? No. So you see where Calvinists go horribly wrong is constantly trying to cling to saying that we believe we "play a part in our salvation" when we believe no such thing!

In summary: Choosing or rejecting the gift has nothing to do with the person who accepts or rejects the gift. It is still a free gift offered to them.

God's salvation is offered to all mankind. We can choose it or reject it. It is a gift!

A gift is not a gift if you are forced to take it. Then it is a burden.

God bless

Extremely well put! :up:

 

[docrob57]

Lets focus in on that statement.

I agree God can use the vile actions of evil men and bring about good. But you are saying something much MORE than that. You are saying God orchestrates, plans, ordains the evil actions of evil men in every detail, and that is very different.

Do you feel comfortable with your own theology?

Will you admit here on TOL that you believe that every evil event for all of time was meticulously designed by God Himself?

Every time Harris and Klebold pulled the trigger and brutally ended each life that day it was by God's design.

Are you bold enough to affirm your own theology?

Why didn't God stop Columbine?

I do boldly affirm my own theology not because it is my own but because it is the truth. I denounce your theology not due to you but because it rests on the idea that God is limited in the same way as humans as to the ability to know and control the future. It exalts man and diminishes God.

Logical consequences of your theology are that -

-God is merely a spectator as events that appear as horrible happen because He could not have known they were going to happen.
-God must not have any purpose in any occurence that you perceive as negative because you can't understand how he could.
-Whether or not you like to admit it, you claim some type of superiority to unbelievers in that if there is not unconditional election, there must, of logical necessity, be something within you that "works together" with God to accomplish your salvation. (You are drifting awfully close to Pelagianism.)
-You can have NO assurance of your salvation in any event because God could be so fed up with mankind that, at some point, God might change His mind about the Atonement. Again, I don't think you make this argument, but it is a logical consequence of your theology nonetheless because you claim that God "repents."

So I ask again, even you must agree that God knew that the Columbine shooters were on their way to the school with guns, and He knew the intent of their hearts . . . why didn't He stop them?

 

[docrob57]

The hard truth about Columbine is basically the same as the hard truth about abortion explained in the following, written by Reformed pastor/theologian Douglas Wilson

What we need is nothing less than a radical shift in the mentality of those who want to call themselves pro-life. This shift requires that we come to comprehend certain neglected biblical principles. When Christians come to this understanding, they will step beyond the term "pro-life," at least as that term is commonly understood.
First, whenever any descendant of Adam dies, he is receiving nothing less than what he deserves. In Adam we all die. This mortality, this bondage to death, is the result of our collective rebellion as represented in our first father. We are a cursed race, subject to death. The administration of this death, however, is in the hands of the sovereign God alone. The Lord gives life, and consequently the Lord is the only one who can authorize the taking of it.
Second, regardless of our sinfulness, and whether we are Christians or not, God requires that our persons be honored and respected on the civic level. We bear the image of God, and whenever anyone is slain outside of the due process of law, the land is defiled with blood. An individual does not forfeit his civic right to life simply because he is unregenerate. The defilement caused by any such murder occurs whether or not a nation professes to follow the God of the Bible or not. And when the murder is formally approved by that culture, as it has been in ours, the judgment of God is certain and inevitable.
Third, when a culture rebels against this ordinance of God in such a profound way, its days are necessarily numbered. Those followers of God within such a culture must prepare themselves for a deep civic division--a culture war--which will either destroy that nation or rend it to pieces. Wisdom says "all those who hate me love death" (Prov. 8:36). A culture which loves death cannot stand. If any of the godly are present within a culture possessed with such a death wish, the presence of two separate cultural orders will become increasingly obvious over time. At some point, two nations will emerge. Our fellow Americans will become to us Amalekites.
Fourth, when God judges a nation, His judgment does not fall only upon those who are eighteen and over. When God judges America for her contempt for her children, the judgment will fall not only on the adults, but also on the children--children considered so contemptible that even their own parents slaughtered them.
In the hard providence of God, He sometimes allows His enemies to destroy themselves. When the pagan nations outside Israel sent their children into the fires of Molech, Israel wasn't called to blockade the fire and rescue the babies. And when Israelite kings followed Molech, the people were not commanded to revolt. Israelites were to make sure they didn't kill their own children (Lev. 20), but God-haters were left to destroy themselves (Is. 57:13; Jer. 5:19; 6:19,21).
God does not delight in the death of the wicked (Ez.18:23) and neither should we. But if they persist in loving death after hearing the truth over the course of decades, then we ought not force this emergent alien nation into external righteousness. Let them kill themselves, for "God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting" (Rom. 1:28), even "murder" (Rom. 1:29). This is the wrath of God.
Fifth, when God judges a nation, He spares those who provided a faithful and consistent testimony within that nation. We can and will face the anger of the humanist state--that tinpot deity!--but we will never have to face the wrath of God. Lot's duty was not to save Sodom, but rather to save himself and his house.
Our duty in providing a faithful testimony has three parts. First, we must continue to preach the holy law of God and the gospel of forgiveness. We provide faithful testimony as we preach the gospel to every creature (Mk. 16:15). Part of this testimony includes the insistence that abortion is murder. In this respect, every Christian must be constantly pro-life. Second, we must flee when we are persecuted, if flight is possible (Matt. 10:23). Third, we must take up arms to defend God's covenant children (Neh. 4:14). But we may not use violence until they come after our children. We ought not take up arms to overthrow the established authorities or to defend the lives of Molech worshippers and their children. This is far more secular than biblical.
We must remember the antithesis. Scripture always remembers that deep chasm between those seeking to honor God and those who hate him. But this has not been a part of contemporary pro-life rhetoric.
The unbelievers are destroying themselves in a frenzy of child-murder and fruitless sodomy. Let them go. These are hard words. But Christians must learn to say them. Paul taught us that the children of God-haters are "foul" or "unclean"(I Cor. 7:14). We must come to the day when the Christian can truly rebuke those who are, "without natural affection"and say--The ancient psalmist blessed the one who would take little ones of those who hate God and dash them against the rock (Ps.137:9). We see by your pro-abortion position that you clearly agree with this kind of treatment. And we in the Church, in a way you cannot truly comprehend, are now prepared to say amen.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Why didn't God stop Columbine?

Because God values our freedom and freewill, He created us this way by design. We don't lock our kids in their room to prevent them from scratching their knee learning to ride their bikes because we value their freedom more than their temporary safety.

I do boldly affirm my own theology not because it is my own but because it is the truth. I denounce your theology not due to you but because it rests on the idea that God is limited in the same way as humans as to the ability to know and control the future. It exalts man and diminishes God.

It does no such thing and you know it.

God is sovereign. God is sovereign over His own God is sovereignity. God is able to create any way He chooses and it's silly for us to say He couldn't have created us with a will of our own. God is able.

Logical consequences of your theology are that -

-God is merely a spectator as events that appear as horrible happen because He could not have known they were going to happen.

The alternative is to remove our freewill, God apparently values our freewill a great deal.

-God must not have any purpose in any occurrence that you perceive as negative because you can't understand how he could.

God tells us that He does not sin, God tells us He does not make men sin, therefore when we see wickedness and sin we shouldn't attribute it to God.

-Whether or not you like to admit it, you claim some type of superiority to unbelievers in that if there is not unconditional election, there must, of logical necessity, be something within you that "works together" with God to accomplish your salvation. (You are drifting awfully close to Pelagianism.)

You have been shown several times (even on this thread) that you are in error.

If you fail to acknowledge responses why ask?

-You can have NO assurance of your salvation in any event because God could be so fed up with mankind that, at some point, God might change His mind about the Atonement. Again, I don't think you make this argument, but it is a logical consequence of your theology nonetheless because you claim that God "repents."

The Body of Christ has been predestined to be holy and blameless before God until the day of redemption. I can have the same assurance in salvation that you do.

I don't know what wacky Calvinists you have been listening to but clearly they don't understand the debate very well.

So I ask again, even you must agree that God knew that the Columbine shooters were on their way to the school with guns, and He knew the intent of their hearts . . . why didn't He stop them?

Because He values our freewill more than He values our temporary safety here on earth.

Your alternative is God drove Harris and Klebod to Columbine that day. God planned out their blood bath, God orchestrated and planned Harris and Klebolds actions and perverse video tapes leading up to that day, God planned that they would mock the victims as Harris and Klebold shot them in the head, God planned out their every move that day. Your theology turns God into Harris and Klebold's architect.

You trade a God that allows evil to ensure freewill, for a God that IS the mastermind behind every evil event.