ARCHIVE: Finding my way

[Nathon Detroit]

Real quick, what happened to the other Calvinists here? I didn't think I'd have to do this myself.

I guess God ordained you "go it alone".

 

[The Berean]

I guess God ordained you "go it alone".

:rotfl:

And I guess God ordained it that we disagree with the doc.

 

[kmoney]

Is the entire mind "carnal"? Is man's spirit entirely carnal?

I'd think the Romans 8 passage would say yes to both.

That fact that many people come to Christ would seem to suggest that there is something in us that wants to be with God I would think.

The fact that many people are religious in some sense seems to suggest that there is something in us that wants there to be a god or the supernatural.

 

[GuySmiley]

As I hate it when open theists mock God by saying that he cannot know the future.

I hate it when settled viewers mock God by saying He cannot create a world with an open future. You limit God by saying He cannot get His way when dealing with free-will beings. Your view of God is too small.

 

[kmoney]

Allsmiles with all due respect do you think that's the first time I have seen those verses???

I mean really?

Clearly you do not know the difference between corporate and individual election. God predetermined that the Body of Christ would be holy and blameless before Him, He didn't however pre-determine who would be a part of that Body. (corporate vs, individual)

Maybe before you comment any further you should get up to speed on the debate. :nono:

Since you don't see the word "corporate" in that passage, what leads you to believe that this is talking about corporate election?

 

[kmoney]

I hate it when settled viewers mock God by saying He cannot create a world with an open future. You limit God by saying He cannot get His way when dealing with free-will beings. Your view of God is too small.

I've never seen any SV'er say that God can't create a world with an open future. :nono: I just seem them say they don't believe God did.

 

[GuySmiley]

I think it is important that you deal with Allsmiles. You must at some level consider yourself inherently better than him, right? Otherwise, why have you come to different conclusions? Why didn't God guide Smiles like He did you, with these non-random events?

Everyone gets to make a choice. The Berean made the right choice, allsmiles has so far made the wrong choice. Some people respond to the calling of the Holy Spirit and some don't. That's free will. People who make the right choice become members of the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is predestined to salvation.

 

[GuySmiley]

I've never seen any SV'er say that God can't create a world with an open future. :nono: I just seem them say they don't believe God did.

Its equally illogical to say that all OV'ers say that God can't know the future. He could know the future, if He wanted to create a settled future. That's just not the kind of universe He created.

 

[GuySmiley]

Real quick, what happened to the other Calvinists here? I didn't think I'd have to do this myself.

They were predestined before the foundation of the Earth to leave you hanging.

EDIT: Oops, this was late!

 

[Berean Todd]

Real quick, what happened to the other Calvinists here? I didn't think I'd have to do this myself.

I support you 100% - although I am sadened that you left the baptists for the Presbyterians, Reformed theology has a lot of problems in the areas of eschatology and Israeology. But I agree with your conclusions on soteriology completely.

Where am I? Well for one I am extremely busy, and number two I have learned to avoid such debates here at ToL because they only cause me to feel bad things towards many of the people here who are so hateful and love their straw men so much. I prefer unity in the body, so I avoid the topics that will cause division with my brothers as much as I can.

I also tired of fighting them, which i did at leangth year ago when I first came here.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

....how do you respond to the questions I have been asking Berean?

I already took it upon myself to answer a while back. Did you have another question you would like to ask me?

 

[Berean Todd]

Knight, no offense, I respect you as a brother in Christ and because I desire unity with you I usually avoid these topics, but you are twisting and misrepresenting calvinism in many areas so I have to take you up.

The five points of Calvinism (TULIP) ~ debunked.

T - Total Inability = No man can come to Christ unless God predestines him to come to Christ. Yet how then could men resist this calling?
​

You know that there is no calvinist point called Total Inability. It is Total Depravity, which is not to say that we are all as utterly bad as we could be, but that we all are utterly fallen, spiritually dead in our sins and transgressions, just as the scripture says we are. Our hearts seek only darkness, all of our righteousness is as filthy rags before the sight of a holy God. Total Depravity.

U - Unconditional Election = Some men are elected to heaven and some men are elected to Hell. Yet God seems to desire ALL men to come to Christ.

Some Calvinists believe in double predestination others do not. But again you twist the teachings. Unconditional Election says simply that the elect became elect through no merrit of their own. God chose for His own good will and pleasure, not because of any merrit.

L - Limited Atonement = Christ only died for the elect. Yet the Bible indicates that Christ died for all men.

Yet the Bible also claims that: 1. He died not for all 2. That the death on the cross was a penal substitution 3. If 2 is a correct view of the atonement then the only options are either universalism or limited atonement or some combination (I personally am a 4.5 point calvie - I believe that the atonement was BOTH limited and unlimited).

I - Irresistible Grace = God forces some people to be saved. But how can something be "GRACE" if it is forced?

Grace simply means unmerrited favor, and that is what it is. When God reveals His unmerrited favor towards us the only possible response is one of faith. His salvific grace will always lead to a response of faith on the part of the lost. By the way He does not force any to follow Him. He simply reveals His grace to some of us (the elect) and through that we respond in faith.

P - Perseverance of the Saints = God will force the saints to persevere. Does God force the believer to persevere or does He simply preserve our inheritance?

There is a whole range of Calvinistic teaching on this ranging from strict preservation to perseverance. Either way you also believe (the last I checked) in the security of the believer, and that is ultimately the point of this stance. So you are not in disagreement with it, unless you believe one can lose one's salvation. Stop creating strawmen where we are in agreement, just because of your unatural hatred of Calvinism.​

 

[Turbo]

Debunking Total Depravity

Debunking Total Depravity

Just because all have sinned, that does not mean that unsaved men sin constantly and are only capable of sin and can do no good.

If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! Matthew 7:11​

Is it a sin to give good gifts to one's children?



Jesus pointed out that Samaritans did not know God:

7 There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said unto her, "Give Me to drink." 8 (For His disciples had gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9 Then said the woman of Samaria unto Him, "How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest a drink of me, who am a woman of Samaria?" For the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, "If thou knewest the gift of God and who it is that saith to thee, `Give Me to drink,' thou wouldest have asked of Him, and He would have given thee living water."
...
19 The woman said unto Him, "Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and ye say that Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."
21 Jesus said unto her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour cometh when ye shall neither on this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.23 But the hour cometh and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship Him." John 4:7-10,19-23​

Note that the pronouns in verse 22 are all plural. Jesus was not just saying that this woman does not know God, but that the Samaritans, as a people, did not know God. That is why He used a Samaritan to drive His point in this parable about loving your neighbor:

30Then Jesus answered and said: "A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31Now by chance* a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.' 36So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?"
37And he said, "He who showed mercy on him."
Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise." Luke 10:30-37​

So this Samaritan was an example of one who did not know God, yet was compassionate and loving toward his neighbor. The Samaritan was surely a sinner, but in this instance did good. The Samaritan was not sinning when he cared for his neighbor, and in fact Jesus instructed others to follow his example.


*Attn: Calvinists
Isn't it odd that Jesus said 'by chance' and not 'according to God's preordination'?
You'd think He of all people would know better.

 

[Berean Todd]

Just because all have sinned, that does not mean that unsaved men sin constantly and are only capable of sin and can do no good.

If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! Matthew 7:11​

Is it a sin to give good gifts to one's children?

It depends, what is the motive of the giving of those gifts, or of that 'love'?

Jesus pointed out that Samaritans did not know God:

The story of the good samaritan is just that ... a story. It is a parable, not a historic event that ever actually occured. Jesus was using it as a story to drive home a ponit to his audience, but there is nothing from the Biblical record that indicates it was an actual story. And even assuming that it was, we must come back to what were the man's motivations for doing this 'good'?

You see Romans tells us that anything not done from faith is a sin. So what is the motivation for any action that any of us take? If it is not taken in faith towards God, then it is wrong. The first and greatest commandment is to love God and if our actions are not taken in faith towards that, then we are sinful whether we are birthing a newborn baby or killing him.

 

[CRASH]

It depends, what is the motive of the giving of those gifts, or of that 'love'?


not taken in faith towards that, then we are sinful whether we are birthing a newborn baby or killing him.

Hey Todd! You're Back. Hope you'll respond HERE!

 

[Berean Todd]

Hey Todd! You're Back. Hope you'll respond HERE!

Sorry, but I have no interest in pursuing that thread here at this time. I have said basically all I need to say.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Just because all have sinned, that does not mean that unsaved men sin constantly and are only capable of sin and can do no good.

If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! Matthew 7:11​

Is it a sin to give good gifts to one's children?



Jesus pointed out that Samaritans did not know God:

7 There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said unto her, "Give Me to drink." 8 (For His disciples had gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9 Then said the woman of Samaria unto Him, "How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest a drink of me, who am a woman of Samaria?" For the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, "If thou knewest the gift of God and who it is that saith to thee, `Give Me to drink,' thou wouldest have asked of Him, and He would have given thee living water."
...
19 The woman said unto Him, "Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and ye say that Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."
21 Jesus said unto her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour cometh when ye shall neither on this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.23 But the hour cometh and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship Him." John 4:7-10,19-23​

Note that the pronouns in verse 22 are all plural. Jesus was not just saying that this woman does not know God, but that the Samaritans, as a people, did not know God. That is why He used a Samaritan to drive His point in this parable about loving your neighbor:

30Then Jesus answered and said: "A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31Now by chance* a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.' 36So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?"
37And he said, "He who showed mercy on him."
Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise." Luke 10:30-37​

So this Samaritan was an example of one who did not know God, yet was compassionate and loving toward his neighbor. The Samaritan was surely a sinner, but in this instance did good. The Samaritan was not sinning when he cared for his neighbor, and in fact Jesus instructed others to follow his example.


*Attn: Calvinists
Isn't it odd that Jesus said 'by chance' and not 'according to God's preordination'?
You'd think He of all people would know better.

I love that post. :up:

 

[CRASH]

Sorry, but I have no interest in pursuing that thread here at this time. I have said basically all I need to say.

Then lose the "Berean" at the start of your name.

 

[Berean Todd]

Then lose the "Berean" at the start of your name.

Oh yes, you're correct. Because I tire of debating you and so many others like you on certain topics it clearly means that I have not sought out or searched the Scriptures on them. In fact the only measure of how spiritual someone is should be how much they are willing to debate someone on the internet over that subject.

Idiotic statements like that above are exactly why I do not desire to discuss this with you.

 

[CRASH]

Oh yes, you're correct. Because I tire of debating you and so many others like you on certain topics it clearly means that I have not sought out or searched the Scriptures on them. In fact the only measure of how spiritual someone is should be how much they are willing to debate someone on the internet over that subject. Idiotic statements like that above are exactly why I do not desire to discuss this with you.

You don't have to discuss anything with me. I was encouraging you to respond to Turbo's posts.

You started the debate with Turbo and then ran away. He made some fabulous points that I don't think you can answer. If you want to avoid biblical evidence that might threaten your position that is, of course, your decision.

If you don't have an answer, you could just say "I don't have an answer."

We now all know to read your posts in light of that.