Anyone Who Thinks Another Person Deserves To Be Raped Is A Knob

[Traditio]

What do you mean you 'don't know what it means'? It means exactly what it says! That SOD thinks that in "certain circumstances" a woman deserves to be raped...what exactly is tripping you up on this? Do you think it was written in some sort of secretive code?

I don't know what it means because he is using two very ambiguous words ("deserve" and "earn"). Those two words, "deserve" and "earn," are the "key words" of his claim, and they both can be used in several different senses. In fact, as I think about it, it's even more ambiguous than I initially thought, because, in addition to senses:

1. It is just for A to do B to C (because C has earned or deserved B from A)

and

2. B is a foreseeable consequent of C, which A has chosen,

there is also:

3. Though not strictly speaking just for A to do B to C, B is, in some broad sense, fitting to happen to A.

We actually do use "deserve" like this in sense 3. I recall watching an episode of Homicide Hunters (with Lt. Joseph Kenda) in which the murderer basically got away with murder. Later, he himself was murdered. My thoughts: "Ha! He deserved that." Was it just for the person who murdered him to do so? Was the murderer entitled to murder our man? No. Nonetheless, he was the sort of person who, in some broad sense, really did deserve to die.

So, we may distinguish three different senses of "earned" or "deserved" in the case of rape:

1. Sometimes, it is just to rape someone.

2. Sometimes, a person is so wicked that reason recognizes a natural proportion between what they have done and the fact that they are now being raped (though not, strictly speaking, a punishment, it is as though they are being punished).

3. Sometimes, a rape victim easily could have avoided being raped, and there is something defective on the part of the rape victim in her failure to avoid being raped.

Unless you and OkDozer specify which sense is intended, we are just going to talk past each other.

I think that someone never deserves rape in the sense of 1, but sometimes, someone might "deserve" to be raped in senses 2 and 3, and I'm inclined to think that most people agree with me.

Consider the serial rapist and murderer who goes to prison and then himself is raped and murdered in prison. That's an obvious case of someone who "deserved it" in sense 3.

To which, of course, you'll take offense to my use of the word "deserve" and "earned." But then you'll simply be arguing over the use of a word. It'll be a sheerly sophistic/verbal dispute.

 

[ok doser]

Likewise, did the people murdered at Planned Parenthood make the choice to be murdered?

i would say no, unless they knew there was a strong chance of a shooting occurring that day

Is this a circumstances exist in which a person deserves to be murdered, in that they had earned it by her actions?

a little garbled, but i get the gist of it

my answer is yes

a nazi concentration camp guard who is murdered by the jews has earned it by his actions

If the girl gets drunk at a frat party?

high risk dumb move

If she gets drunk only?

at home? low risk

If she is sober at a frat party?

depends - "frat party" alone carries risk

If she wears a dress that doesn't touch her knees?

depends

If she wears a dress that ends 6 inches above her knees?

depends

Are there levels of earning a rape?

of course - it all has to do with behavior/actions/choices and disregarding risk

Burkas for all women just in case.

how about "stop acting like drunken whores" for all women just in case?

 

[bybee]

i would say no, unless they knew there was a strong chance of a shooting occurring that day



a little garbled, but i get the gist of it

my answer is yes

a nazi concentration camp guard who is murdered by the jews has earned it by his actions



high risk dumb move



at home? low risk



depends - "frat party" alone carries risk



depends



depends



of course - it all has to do with behavior/actions/choices and disregarding risk



how about "stop acting like drunken whores" for all women just in case?

How about men behaving like gentlemen?

 

[Rusha]

How about men behaving like gentlemen?

Oh now that is just plain silly ...

As we have seen from these threads, there is a glaring double standard when it comes the expectations for *men*.

 

[WizardofOz]

i would say no, unless they knew there was a strong chance of a shooting occurring that day

But they are at a place that carries a higher risk. Just like a girl runs a higher risk of being raped at a frat party, people at a Planned Parenthood run a higher risk of being murdered. Therefore, by your logic, they made a choice to be, or earned their murder.

 

[ok doser]

But they are at a place that carries a higher risk. Just like a girl runs a higher risk of being raped at a frat party, people at a Planned Parenthood run a higher risk of being murdered. Therefore, by your logic they made a choice to be or earned their murder.

true, but the number of murders of adults at planned parenthood is, i suspect, much lower than the reported cases of rape at drunken frat parties

just guessing - haven't seen any figures

 

[ok doser]

How about men behaving like gentlemen?

so start another thread

this one is about rape victims


oh wait - i started one for you:

Is Rape Always Wrong? http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114269

 

[Traditio]

Because those words would be endorsing the act of rape towards their victim, correct?

It has those overtones, but not necessarily. It really depends upon what you mean. The serial rapist and murderer certainly "deserves" his maltreatment in prison, but in no sense do I think that any prisoner should so maltreat him.

THAT is different than expressing sheer giddiness and glee over that fact that women get raped, as the word DESERVE does.

I really don't know if OkDozer is saying that. "Deserve" doesn't necessary mean that.

However, in the same scenario, it could just as easily be a man who is raped during his attendance at ANY occasion or gathering because he doesn't guard his drink well enough.

And, depending on the circumstances, I'd say the same thing:

"You didn't see that coming? Really? "

That said, women are, I imagine, much more likely to be victimized.

 

[glorydaz]

I've seen this posting of Koban before. I don't know how to interpret it. "Deserve" could be understood in more than one sense.

1. It could indicate a claim of justice. A deserves B if and only if B is owed to A in justice. Thus, if A deserves to receive B from C, then C commits an act of justice in giving B to A. Thus, "A deserves to be raped" could mean "It is just for somebody to rape A." This reading of Koban, however, seems to be contraindicated by another thread in which he asserted that the commission of rape is always wrong.

2. A deserves B if and only if B is a foreseeable (albeit, perhaps, unintended) and avoidable consequence of some act C, and A commits C, knowing fully well that B could, and indeed, probably would, result in consequence. This is what we customarily mean when we say things like:

A. He had it coming.
B. He made his own bed; now he has to lie in it.
C. He should have known better.

I'm inclined to think tht Koban means the latter sense, but I'm not sure.

What do you think that he is saying?

If he means the latter sense, we do often say things like the following:

"Dude, you parked right out on the street in the middle of the ghetto...left your windows open...and the GPS on the front seat...and somebody stole it? Yup. You had it coming, man. What have we learned?"

Does this ever apply to the case of rape? I'm not prepared to comment on this either way.

Some simple common sense right off the bat. Look out for the PC Tyrants Trad. You're a brave man. :thumb:

 

[glorydaz]

Prostitutes are reported to have the highest incidence of rapes. Though many go unreported, the rates are said to be considerably above that of any country's average female population.

If a woman - a college student, for example - chooses to sell herself (and such does happen; not all prostitutes are forced into it), does she bear any responsibility for putting herself in a situation where her statistical likelihood of being raped is higher than average?

This is not an extreme scenario. Nor in any case does any woman "deserve" rape.

Of course she bears responsibility. Even more, she deserves whatever she gets. I realize it's a dangerous thing to say on this forum, that someone actually deserves (reaps) what they have sown, but I'll say it. I'm not afraid of the wrath of man or woman.

We all deserve whatever we get when we do something WRONG. And, we never deserve the mercy we get when we receive that instead.

 

[bybee]

Of course she bears responsibility. Even more, she deserves whatever she gets. I realize it's a dangerous thing to say on this forum, that someone actually deserves (reaps) what they have sown, but I'll say it. I'm not afraid of the wrath of man or woman.

We all deserve whatever we get when we do something WRONG. And, we never deserve the mercy we get when we receive that instead.

Why is it dangerous? Not everyone will agree with you. Is that dangerous?
My goodness! You presume to judge the actions of Almighty God and take issue with them?
God has decided that we are deserving of mercy.

 

[annabenedetti]

Why is it dangerous? Not everyone will agree with you. Is that dangerous?

No, it's not dangerous, she just wants to look persecuted. :chuckle:

 

[ok doser]

God has decided that we are deserving of mercy.

not all are going to receive mercy

many are going to receive His wrath

 

[bybee]

Oh now that is just plain silly ...

As we have seen from these threads, there is a glaring double standard when it comes the expectations for *men*.

I know....
Especially the "Knuckle-dragger's"!
Who knew that there were female knuckle-dragger's here as well?

 

[Traditio]

No, it's not dangerous, she just wants to look persecuted. :chuckle:

We're all writing to each other basically anonymously. Just pointing that out. :noid:

Except for Knight. He probably has at least some of our credit card info.

 

[bybee]

No, it's not dangerous, she just wants to look persecuted. :chuckle:

The poor thing has had to face opposition. It is called being an adult.

 

[bybee]

We're all writing to each other basically anonymously. Just pointing that out. :noid:

So true! Yet we do make friends and enemies on this forum.

 

[ok doser]

We're all writing to each other basically anonymously. Just pointing that out. :noid:

you mean rusha and bybee aren't the two girls sitting next to me?

no wonder they keep looking at me funny when I thump them :noid:

 

[glorydaz]

To which, of course, you'll take offense to my use of the word "deserve" and "earned." But then you'll simply be arguing over the use of a word. It'll be a sheerly sophistic/verbal dispute.

"Arguing over the use of a word." And how quick they jump.

You've nailed it, Trad. Exactly. And all the venomous hate-filled posting that has taken place here on TOL, because someone dared bring up the subject of rape. It's been embarrassing to watch. All over how different people use certain words. :nono:

 

[bybee]

you mean rusha and bybee aren't the two girls sitting next to me?

no wonder they keep looking at me funny when I thump them :noid:

It would be your last thump before meeting The Lord of the Flies!