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God's Truth

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Any evidence of this?

Because, this is blatantly false. Mary is mentioned at most two times in Mass: First, in the Nicene Creed, when mentioning the conception of Christ. Second, in the Liturgy of the Eucharist, some priests mention her along with the other deceased saints.


You can disagree. That is fine. But you are wrong.

I haven't dismissed anything. I said that Mary is the greatest of human saints, due to her integral role in God's plan of salvation for humanity. You have no proof to refute this.

Jesus did say that John the Baptist was greater than others, yet that he is the least of those in heaven. There is no mention of Mary in that verse. So, you fail to make any point with this particular passage. This passage does not refute anything I have said about Mary, nor does it support anything I have stated about Mary.

I think that Meshak is talking about the Catholics saying the Rosary, which does say the Hail Mary Prayer repetitiously.

As for John the baptizer, Jesus said, "I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."
 

jsanford108

New member
Confession
Confession to a Priest

Catholics teach that we must confess to a priest. In fact, if a Catholic sins a certain offensive sin and does not confess to a priest before death, then according to the Catholics, the person does not get to go to heaven with Jesus. In the Old Testament, the Jews went to a priest to confess their sins; the priest was behind a curtain, where the sinner could not cross. However, when Jesus died on the cross, the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. Through Jesus, we are reconciled to God. We go directly to God when we sin. We ask God to forgive us in the name of Jesus. Jesus intercedes for us, Romans 8:34. Jesus is our high priest. See Hebrews 2:17; 3:1; 4:14,15; 5:10; 6:20; 7:26,27, 28; 8:1; 9:7, 11, 25.

Matthew 27:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
There is quite a bit to unpack here, so I shall do my best.

As far as death before confession and going to hell, that is only if the sin is an unrepentant grave sin. Such as murder, adultery, etc. The key is "unrepentant," meaning the person has no intent of ceasing or repenting of said grave sin.

Matthew 27:51 is a physical fulfillment of a prophecy made by Christ. It is not a destruction of confession. This event demonstrates that the destruction of the temple was a direct fulfillment of Christ, not the result of a common earthquake (hence, tearing from top to bottom, vs bottom to top).

So, Matthew 27:51 has nothing to do with confession. To say it does is an addition of clarification when no such claim is made within Scripture. As for the passages from Hebrews, none of those have anything relating to the negating of confession.

Yes, Romans 8:34 is entirely true. But, that does not negate the command of Christ in John 20. Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive and retain sins. This is imputed to them by Jesus/God, Himself. (Note: they will only forgive sins that would be forgiven in heaven, as they are bound by the Divine Will of Christ/God)

How do you explain John 20:23?

Infant Baptsim
Due to length, I will address each point as it is brought up in this post of yours.
Infant baptism is not biblical

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit....An infant cannot repent.
Where does Peter clarify that one must repent first? Sure, it is listed first. But, Christ said to "Baptize and teach." (Matthew 28:19) How can one be baptized without being taught first, given your clarification?

The way to salvation changes by infant baptism, it is not biblical. Catholics perform infant baptisms; they preach this falseness, which is a damaging blow to those needing the truth, those who want Jesus to save them.
Any Scriptural evidence that gives the explicit clarification about the age to baptize?

If not, it would appear that you are adding to Scripture.

Many Catholics try to use Matthew 19:13-14 to support their false doctrine of infant baptism.

13 Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

If the disciples were baptizing infants, as the Catholics claim, why do you think the disciples rebuked the people who brought the little children?
Why do you think Christ corrected the Apostles?

A more adequate biblical proof for infant baptism is the comparison to circumcision. The manner with which the Jews were entered into the Old Covenant, was circumcision. When was this usually carried out? As infants. Likewise, the manner in which one enters into the New Covenant is baptism. So, paralleling with the Old Covenant, which God ordained, when would make the most sense to carry out this act? Infancy.


You see, infant baptism is not biblical. In fact, infant baptism goes against the Word of God.
Again, please provide this clarification as it is given in Scripture.

Recall, entire households were baptized (Acts 16). Were infants not in any household? Were children not in any household? If so, where again is this revelation made?



Forbidding Marrying
Forbidding marrying

Catholics forbid their Nuns, Priests, Cardinals, Bishops, and Popes not to marry. The word of God tells us those teachings are teachings taught by demons. In addition, the Catholics teach to abstain from meat on Good Friday that is not from the scriptures.

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
Here, you are taking practices and conflating them as doctrines.

Catholics only forbid religious orders to marry, if they have taken vows to do so. Abstinence from sex and physical relationships for religious orders is a practice. Granted, it is a near universally practiced practice. This practice is done so that these persons can focus entirely on their calling. Likewise, husbands and wives cannot enter into religious orders, while married, since their calling is to be spouses and parents, as outlined in their vows.

Also, you are making 1 Timothy fit within your belief. Keep in mind, Timothy is a priest, ordained by Paul. The abstinence that Catholics, whether religious orders or not, are acts of self-sacrifice (not commandments from the Church), in order to enhance relationships with God. Is giving up such things in order to deepen one's relationship with God/Christ, sinful?


Catholic Traditions
Catholic Traditions

When Popes add teachings to the Bible, they call this man-made teachings “Tradition.”
False. Tradition is a truth or practice of belief held since the times of the Apostles. Popes cannot add to the Bible. This is made explicitly clear, as their job is to preserve the Scriptures, as they were given to the Church by God.

The Bible says the foundation was laid by the Apostles, and the Prophets, and Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone. See Ephesians 2:20. No Pope or Bishops can add to God’s word. The foundation has been laid.

When the Apostles taught the Gospel, God also testified to what they said, God testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. See Hebrews 2:4; Galatians 3:4-6; 2 Corinthians 12:12; Romans 15:19; Acts 19:11; Acts 8:13; Acts 2:22.

When the Popes add teachings to the Christian beliefs that are not in the Bible…there are no signs and miracles from God to testify to the validity of those teachings. Furthermore, the teachings Popes add to the Bible, they contradict God’s word.
No Pope or Bishop has added to God's Word. The canon of Scripture is closed. That is a Catholic doctrine.

If you have an example, please provide it.

The oral Tradition of the Catholics is not biblical, and it is against the Word of God.
So, the Apostles did not orally teach things not recorded in Scripture?

Peter and the other apostles said: “We must obey God rather than men! (See Acts 5:29)

See what Jesus say about tradition from men.
Matthew 15:3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?

Matthew 15:6 he is not to ‘honor his father ‘with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

Mark 7:8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”

Mark 7:9 And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!

Mark 7:13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
Every single one of these quotes is reference to traditions that are in conflict with the Hebrew traditions. Note, that every single time, these traditions are made in order to promote individual vanity over devotion. These are all referencing practices not handed down in Mosaic Law.

I can expound more if I need to, but I think that you get the gist.


Mary and the Saints
Praying to Mary and the “Saints”

Catholics teach us to pray to Mary and the other “Saints”. However, there is only one Mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5.

It is wrong to pray to Mary. It is wrong to say the Rosary. Catholics even teach that we should pray to Saints, but we are not to pray to Saints. We can ask others to pray for us, but we are not to pray to others.

Catholics pray to Mary and ask her to go to Jesus with their request. They also do this with the Catholic saints.
I think your key misunderstanding here is in vocabulary and terminology.

What does "pray" mean? It comes from Latin "precari," which means to ask, entreat, or petition. So, you "asking" someone to "pray" for you = you "praying" to someone to "ask" for you. Prayer = petition.

So, when you use 1 Timothy 2:5 as proof of Christ being the sole Mediator between God and Man, as a means of disproving Intercession of the Saints, you should likewise use that as disproving asking another person to "pray" for you (If you wish to be intellectually consistent). The Intercession of Saints is attained by "prayer" to them. This is not worship. Just as Intercession by fellow brothers and sisters is "prayer" to them. Also, not worship.

Does it not stand to reason, accepting the immortal nature of the soul, that those who are in heaven are much more capable to pray and intercede for us to Christ, than those still mortal among us? This logic is why Catholics ask Saints, and Mary in particular, to take our prayers to Christ.


For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5.

We do NOT go through Mary and Saints to get to Jesus and God! I hope you really do carefully consider these scriptures.
If you are asking others to pray for you, then you are introducing other mediators, thus going through mortal figures to get to Jesus and God.



Teachings about Mary
There is something about Mary
Teachings about Mary

Catholic Popes teach Catholics to elevate Mary. There is no such command in the Bible, nor are there any examples of such an act in the Bible. Mary would not want to be exalted in such a way. In fact, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” Jesus replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” See Luke 11:27-28. Does that sound like Jesus wanted Mary exalted to the level that the Catholic Church has exalted her? No. Someone told Jesus, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.” Jesus replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.” See Luke 8:20-21. Does it sound like Jesus wants us to elevate and worship his mother? No!
I agree that Mary did not seek to be exalted in any way. That is part of being Full of Grace.

Jesus did not come to this world to be a husband, or a father, or a son to Mary. Jesus came to this world to save us. When Jesus was on the cross, Jesus called Mary “woman,” and gave her to one of his disciples.

John 19:26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,”
So, why did Jesus do this? Jesus spoke very little while on the Cross. Does it not make logical sense that each of the things He spoke would be of great importance and revelation?

So, if Mary is no more than mere mortal woman, of no significant, why this phrase "Behold your mother," and "behold your son?" John would have known Jesus' teachings regarding widows, poor, destitute, sick, etc. So, we can eliminate Jesus hammering home a teaching that John would have already known quite well. It only would stand to infer a greater point; that Mary was The Mother.

Catholics believe Mary never had sexual intercourse with her husband Joseph. However, Joseph and Mary promised each other to get married, and this planned marriage was before Mary and Joseph knew that Mary was carrying the Son of God. If Mary had plans to marry a man…surely she had in mind to have a marriage bed.
Okay, so they were engaged to be married. But, when the angel announced the coming of Christ via conception of the Holy Spirit, Mary said "how can this be, for I know not man?" If you were engaged, and someone told you that you would soon conceive and bear a child, would you question how that could be?

Logic would stand that Mary was not planning on having children, since her response was not just directed at the present, but also the future.



Eucharist
Real Blood and Body in the wafer

Here are scriptures to show that there is not real presence in the bread and wine. John 6:60-64. Catholics believe that the priest can turn wafers into Jesus’ real body. A special box holds these wafers, the supposed body of Christ. There is even a service called Adoration, whereas parishioners can come to church, sit, and pray near the box of wafers, that box that they believe has the real body of Jesus. Catholics believe they can turn wine into the blood of Jesus. Jesus died once—on the cross, and the blood of Jesus shed once—on the cross. Jesus is not in a wafer. No one is turning the wafer into the body of Christ. No one is turning wine into Jesus’ blood.

Catholics believe that the Lord’s Supper is a sacrifice, a sacrifice every Mass where the priest turns the wafers into Jesus’ body. Catholics believe they are experiencing a miracle when the priest does this. No wonder Catholic teachings are that missing a Mass is sin. However, read what the word of God says. The word of God tells us that Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb. In the Old Testament day after day every priest performs his religious duties again and again, offering the same sacrifices. However, when Jesus offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, see Hebrews 10:12. Did you hear that? Jesus offered for ALL time ONE SACRIFICE for sins. Jesus is not in a wafer, he is at the right hand of the Father.

By one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy, see Hebrews 10:14. By “one sacrifice,” not a daily or weekly sacrifice of turning the wafers into the body of Christ, over and over again, by many priests all over the world.

We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all, see Hebrews 10:10. How hard is that for anyone to understand that we have been made holy THROUGH the BODY of Jesus Christ ONCE for all?

Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself, see Hebrews 9:24-26. Jesus has appeared ONCE for ALL, not again and again in a wafer.
This is a very deep topic and might take longer to explain. I would like to address this at a later time, if that is okay.
 

jsanford108

New member
You are wrong because the Bible says plainly that we can if we want.
No, the Bible says nothing about celebrating Christmas.

You have very specific verses to refute doctrines you disagree with; insisting on interpretations that contain information not explicitly mentioned. Yet, when tasked with providing a specific verse to support something you agree with; no such direct evidence is given, and interpretations containing contextual information are rejected.

This seems to be a running theme within your rebuttals.

The traditions of men are those who preach to obey certain man made things. That is what the Catholics do. Again, celebrating Christmas or not is not a tradition one must follow.
Right. So, man made traditions are what Christ was refuting. Yet, you also claim that any oral Tradition is likewise refuted?

Your mere denial is no defense of the truth.
The Catholics do say they follow Peter.
Your mere affirmation is no defense of the truth. Catholics do not say they follow Peter.

You see how evidence is necessary to prove a point? This goes back to one of the standards I listed in the OP. One just claiming something is true, does not make it so. Thus far, I keep providing evidence. You just keep insisting that things are so.

I said, “I have scriptures that say not to say the things the Catholics say.
If you don’t go by the scriptures, then what are you going by?”
At no point have I disagreed with the Scriptures.

I go by the Word of God, be it written or spoken; keeping in mind that neither will ever disagree with the other.

Where did I say they call the priests “THE Father” ? You are now changing what I said. Be more careful in what you say I said, okay? The Catholics call their brothers ‘father’. Jesus says NOT to do that. Jesus also says not to call each other ‘Master’, and ‘Rabbi’.
At no point did I say that you made the claim of "THE Father;" I was merely relating it to your examples and claims about use "THE Teacher." I apologize for any lack of clarity; such is the issue with communication through technological mediums.


If I teach someone, it does NOT make me the ‘father’, or the ‘Rabbi’, or the ‘Master’, or ‘The Teacher’.
Agreed. Notice your use of the word "the" as a clarification. When you first made your argument, you specifically used the phrase "THE Teacher," yet left off such clarification (of "THE") when referencing calling priests "father." This is a logical fallacy, as it allows you to imply parallel inference, without making a logical case for it.

Just as an educator is "a teacher," a priest can be "a father." This is what I clearly stated before.

Jesus was not telling biological children not to call their fathers ‘father’. Abraham is the biological father of the Jews.
Jesus is speaking about SPIRITUAL things.
I never said that Jesus was calling people to deny the term "father" as it applies to biological parentage. Abraham is the biological father of the Jews. But, so is Noah. So is Adam. So is Jacob. But only Abraham is called "the Father of Our Faith" by the Hebrews. Why? It is because through Abraham, God enacted and made his covenant with the Hebrews.

So, yes, I agree: "Jesus is speaking about Spiritual things." Thus, "Father Abraham" is a spiritual title.

Notice that you are the one who keeps interchanging meanings to fit your doctrine? For your arguments, within one verse, "father" means spiritual, but in the next, it means biological.

You are the one who is trying to disqualify the calling of our earthly fathers ‘father’.
Jesus is speaking of Spiritual things and we are not to call our spiritual brothers in Christ ‘father’.
Any evidence that I have tried to disqualify calling biological fathers "father?"

This is exactly why I listed the standards in the OP: so that in situations such as this, one can easily provide evidence of claims about what each other has stated.


Of course the man is a biological descendant of Abraham.
You don’t know that the Jews are blood related to Abraham?
I know this. I also seem to be the only one to know that Hebrews call Abraham "the father of our faith." I also know that Hebrews Sabbath day began at sunset on Friday, and lasted until sunset on Saturday. I know that the three items in the Ark of the Covenant were manna, the staff of Aaron, and the tablets bearing the commandments of God given to Moses.


You are wrong and hopefully you will study it more and come back to tell me you were wrong and that you now get it.
Thus far, you haven't demonstrated that I am wrong.

I have provided contextual analysis, historical/cultural context, etc. You have made some good claims, used Scripture, and mental gymnastics to make that Scripture fit into your claims. And the moment that I point out a logical error or paradox within your claim/evidence, you have just stated that I am wrong, or am making wild extra-biblical declarations; all of which lack proof. Unless of course, you can provide that proof. It should be easy, since you can quote quite effectively on this site.
 

jsanford108

New member
I think that Meshak is talking about the Catholics saying the Rosary, which does say the Hail Mary Prayer repetitiously.
I assumed that is what she meant. However, that is not what she claimed.

Note that she kept affirming it was used and said in Mass. Yet, when I said that was not the case, she refused to accept that as fact. It just shows her close-minded approach to knowledge.

It isn't that I hold that against her. It just demonstrates an unwillingness to truly pursue truth and facts present in reality. This attitude also adds annoyance to discussion.

Meshak just refuses to be wrong or corrected. And that is fine. I may not like it, but it is her right to be wrong. No hard feelings there.
 

God's Truth

New member
There is quite a bit to unpack here, so I shall do my best.

As far as death before confession and going to hell, that is only if the sin is an unrepentant grave sin
Such as murder, adultery, etc. The key is "unrepentant," meaning the person has no intent of ceasing or repenting of said grave sin.
Of course there are people who will want to repent of those sins. I can hardly believe that you said that.

Matthew 27:51 is a physical fulfillment of a prophecy made by Christ. It is not a destruction of confession.

That scripture means we no longer have to go to a priest to confess. Jesus is the Hight Priest.

This event demonstrates that the destruction of the temple was a direct fulfillment of Christ, not the result of a common earthquake (hence, tearing from top to bottom, vs bottom to top).

So, Matthew 27:51 has nothing to do with confession. To say it does is an addition of clarification when no such claim is made within Scripture. As for the passages from Hebrews, none of those have anything relating to the negating of confession.

Yes, Romans 8:34 is entirely true. But, that does not negate the command of Christ in John 20. Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive and retain sins. This is imputed to them by Jesus/God, Himself. (Note: they will only forgive sins that would be forgiven in heaven, as they are bound by the Divine Will of Christ/God)

How do you explain John 20:23?
That was only during the laying of the foundation. Jesus sent the Apostles as he was sent.
 

God's Truth

New member
I assumed that is what she meant. However, that is not what she claimed.

Note that she kept affirming it was used and said in Mass. Yet, when I said that was not the case, she refused to accept that as fact. It just shows her close-minded approach to knowledge.

It isn't that I hold that against her. It just demonstrates an unwillingness to truly pursue truth and facts present in reality. This attitude also adds annoyance to discussion.

Meshak just refuses to be wrong or corrected. And that is fine. I may not like it, but it is her right to be wrong. No hard feelings there.

She is worse off then I have ever thought.
I won't stand up for her anymore.
 

meshak

BANNED
Banned
I assumed that is what she meant. However, that is not what she claimed.

It does not matter whether it is in mass prayer or rosary. I don't know the difference since it was performed in Sunday worship.

What I saw was so unbiblical.


And another big unbiblical claim of your salvation statement is your trinity doctrine.

That's not what Jesus requires for salvation.

I will bring what Jesus requires for eternal life:

Luke 10:25-37 New International Version (NIV)

The Parable of the Good Samaritan





25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”



26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’



28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”



29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”



30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’



36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
 

meshak

BANNED
Banned
Jesus makes it clear how to inherit eternal life.

That's not what you claim.

Your claim is your church doctrine, not Jesus'.
 
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jsanford108

New member
Of course there are people who will want to repent of those sins. I can hardly believe that you said that.
But do you disagree with that?

Only unrepentant, grave sinners will go to hell. Do you agree or disagree?



That scripture means we no longer have to go to a priest to confess. Jesus is the Hight Priest.
where is this clarification made, within this passage?


Jesus sent the Apostles as he was sent.

I agree. Jesus did send them as He was sent. So, where is your disagreement?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL
 

God's Truth

New member
Infant Baptsim
Due to length, I will address each point as it is brought up in this post of yours.
Where does Peter clarify that one must repent first? Sure, it is listed first. But, Christ said to "Baptize and teach." (Matthew 28:19) How can one be baptized without being taught first, given your clarification?
Hearing the message that saves is being taught. A person must hear the message that saves, which requires repenting of sins.
Any Scriptural evidence that gives the explicit clarification about the age to baptize?
You have to hear the message that saves. You have to hear about repenting to be baptized and saved; and you have to repent of sins.
Are you old enough to grumble against God? Are you old enough to understand what sin is?

Numbers 14:29 In this wilderness your bodies will fall--every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me.

Why do you think Christ corrected the Apostles?
Jesus did NOT tell the Apostles to baptize them.

A more adequate biblical proof for infant baptism is the comparison to circumcision. The manner with which the Jews were entered into the Old Covenant, was circumcision. When was this usually carried out? As infants. Likewise, the manner in which one enters into the New Covenant is baptism. So, paralleling with the Old Covenant, which God ordained, when would make the most sense to carry out this act? Infancy.

Colossians 2:11 is about living by the Spirit and not the flesh, living by the Spirit given to us by Christ.

Paul says plainly the circumcision done by the SPIRIT and NOT the flesh is about living through the Spirit, and it is done by obeying Jesus’ commands.


Infants do not live by the Spirit and put off the flesh. Infants do not yet understand. Faith comes from hearing the message, being taught, convinced, and persuaded. See Romans 10:14; Colossians 1:5, 7; 2 Timothy 3:14; and 2 Corinthians 5:11.

Colossians 2:11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,

Recall, entire households were baptized (Acts 16). Were infants not in any household? Were children not in any household? If so, where again is this revelation made?
Many households do not have any small children and infants.

Forbidding Marrying
Here, you are taking practices and conflating them as doctrines.
You cannot separate them and dismiss it like that. The Catholic nuns, priests, bishops, and cardinal, and popes are not allowed to be married. You saying it is a practice and not a doctrine is to deny the truth.

Catholics only forbid religious orders to marry, if they have taken vows to do so. Abstinence from sex and physical relationships for religious orders is a practice. Granted, it is a near universally practiced practice. This practice is done so that these persons can focus entirely on their calling. Likewise, husbands and wives cannot enter into religious orders, while married, since their calling is to be spouses and parents, as outlined in their vows.

Also, you are making 1 Timothy fit within your belief. Keep in mind, Timothy is a priest, ordained by Paul. The abstinence that Catholics, whether religious orders or not, are acts of self-sacrifice (not commandments from the Church), in order to enhance relationships with God. Is giving up such things in order to deepen one's relationship with God/Christ, sinful?

Not marrying is not a command in the Holy Bible to be a priest. All the saved are priests, whether or not they are married. The Catholics forbid a righteous marriage. That is against God.

Catholic Traditions
False. Tradition is a truth or practice of belief held since the times of the Apostles. Popes cannot add to the Bible. This is made explicitly clear, as their job is to preserve the Scriptures, as they were given to the Church by God.

Jesus says that traditions NULLIFY God’s word. You will just have to believe God.

No Pope or Bishop has added to God's Word. The canon of Scripture is closed. That is a Catholic doctrine.
The Catholics add things and it is stated in the catechism.

If you have an example, please provide it.

Hahahaha There are many things the Catholics do that are not in the Bible, even spoken against by GOD.

The Catholic church has statues throughout, and the priests and parishioners are commanded to bow to them; they call their brothers in Christ father; they believe they can turn the wine and wafers into the real flesh and blood of Jesus; they make Mary a co redeemer; they baptize infants; they sell prayers.

The Catholic church incenses their objects.

The Catholic church digs up their dead, puts them in glass see through caskets to pray to for a healing.

The Catholics do many things against God. They add sins upon sins.

So, the Apostles did not orally teach things not recorded in Scripture?

Everything they verbally taught did not contradict what they recorded in scriptures.

Every single one of these quotes is reference to traditions that are in conflict with the Hebrew traditions. Note, that every single time, these traditions are made in order to promote individual vanity over devotion. These are all referencing practices not handed down in Mosaic Law.

I can expound more if I need to, but I think that you get the gist.

The Catholics do things that are not in the scriptures, and, things that go against what is in the scriptures.

Mary and the Saints
I think your key misunderstanding here is in vocabulary and terminology.

What does "pray" mean? It comes from Latin "precari," which means to ask, entreat, or petition. So, you "asking" someone to "pray" for you = you "praying" to someone to "ask" for you. Prayer = petition.

So, when you use 1 Timothy 2:5 as proof of Christ being the sole Mediator between God and Man, as a means of disproving Intercession of the Saints, you should likewise use that as disproving asking another person to "pray" for you (If you wish to be intellectually consistent). The Intercession of Saints is attained by "prayer" to them. This is not worship. Just as Intercession by fellow brothers and sisters is "prayer" to them. Also, not worship.

Does it not stand to reason, accepting the immortal nature of the soul, that those who are in heaven are much more capable to pray and intercede for us to Christ, than those still mortal among us? This logic is why Catholics ask Saints, and Mary in particular, to take our prayers to Christ.

We are to speak to Jesus directly when we want the Father to hear us.

We are NOT to pray to and entreat God by “saints”.

If you are asking others to pray for you, then you are introducing other mediators, thus going through mortal figures to get to Jesus and God.

The Catholics do not just ASK Mary and other “Saints” to pray for them---the Catholics actually PRAY TO Mary and other “Saints”.

Teachings about Mary
There is something about Mary
So, why did Jesus do this? Jesus spoke very little while on the Cross. Does it not make logical sense that each of the things He spoke would be of great importance and revelation?

So, if Mary is no more than mere mortal woman, of no significant, why this phrase "Behold your mother," and "behold your son?" John would have known Jesus' teachings regarding widows, poor, destitute, sick, etc. So, we can eliminate Jesus hammering home a teaching that John would have already known quite well. It only would stand to infer a greater point; that Mary was The Mother.
All are Jesus’ family and friend if they obey.

Jesus says you will not be blessed as a disciple, as a family member and as a friend if you do not do what he says.

John 8:35 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

Luke 11:28 He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

John 13:17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

Matthew 12:50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

John 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command.
 

God's Truth

New member
Okay, so they were engaged to be married. But, when the angel announced the coming of Christ via conception of the Holy Spirit, Mary said "how can this be, for I know not man?" If you were engaged, and someone told you that you would soon conceive and bear a child, would you question how that could be?
Mary asked how could she be with child if she did not have relations with a man.
Logic would stand that Mary was not planning on having children, since her response was not just directed at the present, but also the future.
What you said is nonsense. Mary was going to marry a man and be a good Jewish wife; and it includes sexual relations with her husband and bearing children.

Eucharist
This is a very deep topic and might take longer to explain. I would like to address this at a later time, if that is okay.

I definitely understand and will wait for you response. I want to thank you again for this deep discussion of the things of God.
 

God's Truth

New member
But do you disagree with that?

Only unrepentant, grave sinners will go to hell. Do you agree or disagree?

Right; but, it is not repentance to a Catholic priest that determines that. It is not about receiving the Catholics last rite.

where is this clarification made, within this passage?
The curtain has been torn and Jesus is the High Priest, he is the interceder.

Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 3:1[ Jesus Greater Than Moses ] Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest.

Hebrews 4:14 [ Jesus the Great High Priest ] Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.


…and many more.
 

jsanford108

New member
I am so glad that you made this post and directed it to me. I cannot tell you how much joy it gives me to discuss with you, a person who wants to discuss the scriptures deeply and without name calling or telling another that they are not saved.

I think we should start with one thing at a time.
I think we should go back to addressing each claim/position individually, as evidenced by my over-eager attempt to reply to all of your posts. My apologies on that.

However, I do appreciate you posting them, as they can be our guide to your claims.

So, if we may, let us continue to address each individual position. When either of us feel we have reached the end of discussion regarding that point, or an impasse, then we can move to the next position. Does this sound good to you?



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God's Truth

New member
I think we should go back to addressing each claim/position individually, as evidenced by my over-eager attempt to reply to all of your posts. My apologies on that.

However, I do appreciate you posting them, as they can be our guide to your claims.

So, if we may, let us continue to address each individual position. When either of us feel we have reached the end of discussion regarding that point, or an impasse, then we can move to the next position. Does this sound good to you?



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I understand that I am probably on here a lot more than you are, so I know I might have to wait awhile longer for you to reply. There is only a couple more points I would like to make. I think the post I made on the Eucharist is where we left off.

I will wait for a reply to that, but I want to make an argument to you about statues and relics.
 

God's Truth

New member
Statues and Idols

There are many scriptures telling us not to make statues, not to have idols. Here is a passage to show why NOT to make statues. Deuteronomy 4:15-17 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air,

The Pope crowns the statue of baby Jesus. The Pope crowns the statue of Mary. This crowning by the reigning Pope represents the highest honor the Church can pay to an image of Jesus Christ or the Blessed Virgin Mary. The President of ACN, Father Joaquín Alliende, commented, “The gesture of the Holy Father is an expression of a profound truth. Even as a Child, Christ is already a King. The Child Jesus is the only King who can bring peace to the world.” http://catholicexchange.com/2009/10/01/122340/

This is ridiculous idol worship. This act is against the word of God.

The following paragraph is part of an article that explains further the acts Catholics perform.

In both East and West the reverence we pay to images has crystallized into formal ritual. In the Latin Rite the priest is commanded to bow to the cross in the sacristy before he leaves it to say Mass (“Ritus servandus” in the Missal, II, 1); he bows again profoundly “to the altar or the image of the crucifix placed upon it” when he begins Mass (ibid., II, 2); he begins incensing the altar by incensing the crucifix on it (IV, 4), and bows to it every time he passes it (ibid.); he also incenses any relics or images of saints that may be on the altar (ibid.). In the same way many such commands throughout our rubrics show that always a reverence is to be paid to the cross or images of saints whenever we approach them. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm

Every time a Catholic walks in a church for Mass, they bow to the altar with the statues and images placed there. This is against God.

2 Kings 18:1 In the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. 2 He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother’s name was Abijah daughter of Zechariah. 3 He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done. 4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)

Catholics symbolism and manner of incensing:

Incense, with its sweet-smelling perfume and high-ascending smoke, is typical of the good Christian’s prayer, which, enkindled in the heart by the fire of God’s love and exhaling the odour of Christ, rises up a pleasing offering in His sight (cf. Amalarius, “De eccles. officiis” in P.L., CV). Incensing is the act of imparting the odour of incense. The censer is held in the right hand at the height of the breast, and grasped by the chain near the cover; the left hand, holding the top of the chain, is placed on the breast. The censer is then raised upwards to the height of the eyes, given an outward motion and slightly ascending towards the object to be incensed, and at once brought back to the starting point. This constitutes a single swing. For a double swing the outward motion should be repeated, the second movement being more pronounced than the first. The dignity of the person or thing will determine whether the swing is to be single or double, and also whether one swing or more are to be given. The incense-boat is the vessel containing the incense for immediate use. It is so called from its shape. It is generally carried by the thurifer in the disengaged hand. new advent.org/cathen/07716a.htm

The Israelites burned incense to the bronze snake/the Catholic priest burns incense to the crucifix, and any relics or images of saints. If the bronze snake that Moses had made was broke into pieces because the Israelites had been burning incense to it (see 2 Kings 18:1-4), then why is it okay for the Catholic priests to bow to and incense the crucifix?

Exodus 20: 4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Leviticus 26:1"'You must not make for yourselves idols, so you must not set up for yourselves a carved image or a pillar, and you must not place a sculpted stone in your land to bow down before it, for I am the LORD your God.

No longer bow down to the work of your hands (see Micah 5:13)

Hosea 14:8. Isaiah 44:9. God’s word warns us no idols.

1 John 5:21 Dear children, keep yourself from idols.

1 Thessalonians 1:9 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God.

The word of God warns us against idols, yet the Catholic religion makes statues to idolize, they even idolize relics, the material possessions belonging to the so-called Catholic Saints. The Catholics bow and pray to these relics. Relics are even the dead decayed remains of these Saints. Catholics believe that the bodies of these Saints are incorruptible, meaning not decayed.

I will be posting some pictures of these relics of the "Saints" shortly.
 

jsanford108

New member
I understand that I am probably on here a lot more than you are, so I know I might have to wait awhile longer for you to reply. There is only a couple more points I would like to make. I think the post I made on the Eucharist is where we left off.

I will wait for a reply to that, but I want to make an argument to you about statues and relics.

I will try and post as often as I can. I will try and reply within a 2 day period, 3 at max.

The only issue I have is that detailed replies are best conjured on my computer, not my phone. This is why the delays occur. Life just takes a priority. But be assured, I have not forgotten our conversation.

I am will compose and post my Eucharist rebuttal tomorrow. Thank you for the patience and for a sincere conversation.


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God's Truth

New member
I will try and post as often as I can. I will try and reply within a 2 day period, 3 at max.

The only issue I have is that detailed replies are best conjured on my computer, not my phone. This is why the delays occur. Life just takes a priority. But be assured, I have not forgotten our conversation.

I am will compose and post my Eucharist rebuttal tomorrow. Thank you for the patience and for a sincere conversation.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

I completely understand. I have wanted this conversation with you for a long time. My parents were Catholic and they passed on when I was in my early and mid twenties. I would have told them what I am telling you. I think my mom would have been excited to hear the truth that I am speaking, but I do think that my dad would have resisted. I really do see how hard it is to repent of things one thought was right.
 

jsanford108

New member
Real Blood and Body in the wafer

Here are scriptures to show that there is not real presence in the bread and wine. John 6:60-64. Catholics believe that the priest can turn wafers into Jesus’ real body. A special box holds these wafers, the supposed body of Christ. There is even a service called Adoration, whereas parishioners can come to church, sit, and pray near the box of wafers, that box that they believe has the real body of Jesus. Catholics believe they can turn wine into the blood of Jesus. Jesus died once—on the cross, and the blood of Jesus shed once—on the cross. Jesus is not in a wafer. No one is turning the wafer into the body of Christ. No one is turning wine into Jesus’ blood.

Catholics believe that the Lord’s Supper is a sacrifice, a sacrifice every Mass where the priest turns the wafers into Jesus’ body. Catholics believe they are experiencing a miracle when the priest does this. No wonder Catholic teachings are that missing a Mass is sin. However, read what the word of God says. The word of God tells us that Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb. In the Old Testament day after day every priest performs his religious duties again and again, offering the same sacrifices. However, when Jesus offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, see Hebrews 10:12. Did you hear that? Jesus offered for ALL time ONE SACRIFICE for sins. Jesus is not in a wafer, he is at the right hand of the Father.

By one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy, see Hebrews 10:14. By “one sacrifice,” not a daily or weekly sacrifice of turning the wafers into the body of Christ, over and over again, by many priests all over the world.

We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all, see Hebrews 10:10. How hard is that for anyone to understand that we have been made holy THROUGH the BODY of Jesus Christ ONCE for all?

Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself, see Hebrews 9:24-26. Jesus has appeared ONCE for ALL, not again and again in a wafer.

I completely understand. I have wanted this conversation with you for a long time. My parents were Catholic and they passed on when I was in my early and mid twenties. I would have told them what I am telling you. I think my mom would have been excited to hear the truth that I am speaking, but I do think that my dad would have resisted. I really do see how hard it is to repent of things one thought was right.
I was a baptists/fundamentalist before I converted to Catholicism.

So, let us progress in our discussion. I would like to offer a challenge to both of us: not to use any of Paul's writings as support for our claims/positions.

Paul is just as divinely inspired as any other author in the New Testament. However, I feel that many of Paul's words need support from other books to paint a clearer picture. For example, the faith alone believers use Ephesians 2:9 as support for their doctrine, despite the verse having nothing to do with faith alone. Now, you and I easily refute this claim of support with James 2:24. We agree that all of the authors of the New Testament were equally inspired and infallible, no? So, I propose that we restrict ourselves to those other than Paul.

Now, if you disagree with this, then that is fine. I just suggested it, due to many debates in other threads being over correct interpretation of various Pauline passages (due to the fact that his writings require outside support or clarification). That is why I suggested it.

Back to our discussion....
 

jsanford108

New member
The Eucharist
Real Blood and Body in the wafer

Here are scriptures to show that there is not real presence in the bread and wine. John 6:60-64.
This verse does not negate the things that Jesus spoke before this particular dialogue.

We can even see in verse 59 that Jesus had spoken this many times before, denoting a passage of time between verse 60 and the preceding passage.

Catholics believe that the priest can turn wafers into Jesus’ real body. A special box holds these wafers, the supposed body of Christ.
I am not trying to nitpick with your response, but I want to comb out any misinformation or falsehoods.

This is one such falsehood or misinformation. No one who is educated in Catholic doctrine believes that the box which holds the host is the Body of Christ.

There is even a service called Adoration, whereas parishioners can come to church, sit, and pray near the box of wafers, that box that they believe has the real body of Jesus. Catholics believe they can turn wine into the blood of Jesus.

Catholics believe that the Lord’s Supper is a sacrifice, a sacrifice every Mass where the priest turns the wafers into Jesus’ body. Catholics believe they are experiencing a miracle when the priest does this. No wonder Catholic teachings are that missing a Mass is sin.
Correct. All of this is accurate.

If the Host was transformed into the Body of Christ, would one not want to adore it? Just hypothetically.

Jesus died once—on the cross, and the blood of Jesus shed once—on the cross. Jesus is not in a wafer. No one is turning the wafer into the body of Christ. No one is turning wine into Jesus’ blood.

However, read what the word of God says. The word of God tells us that Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb. In the Old Testament day after day every priest performs his religious duties again and again, offering the same sacrifices. However, when Jesus offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, see Hebrews 10:12. Did you hear that? Jesus offered for ALL time ONE SACRIFICE for sins.
By one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy, see Hebrews 10:14. By “one sacrifice,” not a daily or weekly sacrifice of turning the wafers into the body of Christ, over and over again, by many priests all over the world.

Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself, see Hebrews 9:24-26. Jesus has appeared ONCE for ALL, not again and again in a wafer.
Okay, so you would argue that the Lord's Supper is symbolic, correct? (Once I have your confirmation, I will extrapolate on this point)

Let us consider John 6:34-58. Jesus says "unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you have no inheritance with me." Then the people murmured and pondered "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" Jesus did not correct them, but rather further emphasized what He stated before. If they were misunderstanding Him, why did He not correct them. When the multitude left Him, He did not call them back, due to a clear misunderstanding/misinterpretation of what He had declared.

Anytime that Jesus was speaking symbolically in John's Gospel Account, John denotes the symbolism by revealing it as such. For example, John 2:21. So, why is no such clarifying verse or denotation given in this instance. It plays out in the same manner, yet in John 6, no symbolic clarify9ing is provided by John, despite occurring every other time Jesus spoke in Parable or symbolically.


Jesus is not in a wafer, he is at the right hand of the Father.
So, how does Jesus reside in you?
 
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