A Proof that God Exists

[CherubRam]

Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
There are two aspects to consider, chaos, and design. Did the life forms in this world arise from chaos at about the same time, or are they produced by design?

The missing links are missing for a reason.

Or that life simply IS; origin unfathomable, while wishful delusion mollifies the uncomfortable fact of life's inscrutability.

Inscrutability definition, incapable of being investigated, analyzed, or scrutinized.
The origin of life is not unfathomable these days, nor is it incapable of being investigated. There are two options, either there is a creator, or not. If there is a creator, then there will be missing links in the rise of life. If Evolution was true, then the prehistoric life forms alive today would have evolved, and life form links would be everywhere.

 

[trutherator]

Yes, I do share Moses Maimonides' Faith but he in his 13 Principles of Faith, did not refer to bodily resurrection but to the return of the Jews from exile. That's what exiles mean. According to Isaiah 53:8,9, whenever the Jews are forced into exile, it is as if they have been cut off from the Land of the Living and graves are assigned to them among the nations. At the end of the exile, the Lord opens up those graves and brings them back to the Land of Israel. This is explained by the vision of the Dry Bones in Ezekiel 37:12.

A Jewish man of the "size" of Moses Maimonides would not have endorsed the Christian doctrine of bodily resurrection. If you read II Tim. 2:8, Paul was the one who fabricated the Hellenistic idea that Jesus had resurrected when he said that it was according to his - Paul's gospel - that Jesus had resurrected. It means that at his time there was another gospel being preached about Jesus in which his resurrection was not mentioned. Now, if you read II Cor. 11:4-6, 13
after listening to the apostles of Jesus, Paul was disappointed that they were preaching a different gospel from his about a different Jesus and for that matter, he considered them as false apostles for practicing deceit in their disguising as apostles of Jesus.

What? Paul "fabricated" the Hellenistic idea that Jesus had resurrected?!! This in a Christian forum??

The Jesus Paul preached was a Jewish Messiah who fulfilled over 300 prophecies from the Tanukh, one of them in the first few chapters of Genesis! Another one predicted HIS resurrection, and Job said "I know that in my flesh I shall see him".

And MANY more scriptures and not just Paul's because the word of God is a seamless whole.

 

[trutherator]

The "discovery" that the universe had a beginning was not a "Catholic" discovery at all! Every Bible believer in history believed that Genesis One described the very beginning. Isaac Newton surely believed it. Lots of science greats believed it, most of them in history in fact. Research! Paul said to beware of science "falsely so-called".

(For today, he could have said also to beware of "science history" falsely so-called.

 

[trutherator]

.... Fear to scare you straight into the church. This has harmed my faith. What's the point in believing in an All-powerful God if I cannot rest in Him and let Him fret over such things. I love the story in Acts where Paul just shakes off a poisonous snake (asp) into a fire and continues on eating or whatever. No fear. That's living.

Not much faith if these things shook your faith so much..

Why did YOU concentrate so much on the fear thing, and if you figured it out, why are YOU still using it as an excuse for not only YOUR doubt, but sharing this here?

You point to Paul shaking off the poisonous snake and the bite too, and there is abundant uplifting material both in the bible and in Christian history to glorify God in testimony, and I'll bet you've seen things in your own personal life. "Murmur not ye" like the children of Israel in the desert, you know the ones who had no excuse because they had gone through those ten miraculous plagues that got them set free.

I have experienced fear since I was saved but it's diminishing. But a Christian experiences fear when he does most during the times he's outside the will of God and something happens.

Something unpleasant happens to me now, I pray to see why. I have ongoing faults but at least I know that much.

 

[trutherator]

Or that life simply IS; origin unfathomable, while wishful delusion mollifies the uncomfortable fact of life's inscrutability.

Genesis One explains the origins of both the universe and of biology and mankind. Plain enough. It's straightforward language.

 

[exminister]

Not much faith if these things shook your faith so much..

Why did YOU concentrate so much on the fear thing, and if you figured it out, why are YOU still using it as an excuse for not only YOUR doubt, but sharing this here?

You point to Paul shaking off the poisonous snake and the bite too, and there is abundant uplifting material both in the bible and in Christian history to glorify God in testimony, and I'll bet you've seen things in your own personal life. "Murmur not ye" like the children of Israel in the desert, you know the ones who had no excuse because they had gone through those ten miraculous plagues that got them set free.

I have experienced fear since I was saved but it's diminishing. But a Christian experiences fear when he does most during the times he's outside the will of God and something happens.

Something unpleasant happens to me now, I pray to see why. I have ongoing faults but at least I know that much.

Trutherator,
My God loves honesty and truth. Why create me otherwise. Should I pretend I don't feel a certain way or I was affected in a certain way? Some church members do preach that. Doubt is avoided at ALL costs. Don't even whisper such things. Sounds like what you are telling me.

You might have missed I was brought up in churches with fear mongering. I was taught to watch for fearful things. The world is evil, the devil and his angels are much smarter than you and will entice you to sin, terrible plagues are soon coming on the earth. Fire and brimstone sermons. So I don't know how anyone could not focus there when everyone was pointing there for me to look especially as a child.

I have grown more when I have been frank with God and others. It has been working for me. Today I go through my fears rather than around them as some have taught. This diminishes my fear. When I suppress it, it only gets bigger and I get desperate with my prayers. I certainly like myself a lot better being honest. It's being comfortable in my own skin. Godliness with contentment is great gain. This is what I want for my life and those I love (and even some I don't LOL)

 

[quip]

You don't see any further behind that curtain than I or anyone else, does. What we do all see is design, and the implication of purpose via that design. What we make of that is, as you say, up to us.

I am not claiming proof of any creator-god. I am simply pointing out that THERE IS EVIDENCE to suggest such a thing. While here is no evidence to suggest that there is not, unless we irrationally accept no evidence, as evidence.

Well, we've been down this road a couple of times now...so no use in retreading it again. Seems this his curtain leaves you uneasy, as a result you refuse to peek beyond it's cherished pre-configuration. All I ask is to grant it a quick glance.

 

[Hedshaker]

At the very foundation of being there must exist a will to exist.

Why? Are you sure that this, there must exist a will to exist isn't confirmation bias? ie, it "must" be that way because that's that's the way you want it.

Personally I find a natural existence just as it is because it has no alternative, infinitely more interesting than there could be a mysterious supernatural agent somewhere, in charge of it all, pulling the strings, so to speak. Surly that would present way more questions than answers?

 

[OCTOBER23]

DOZER saiid

Is it a special purpose?
---------------------------

YES , TO BE DECKED IN RESPLENDENT GLORY WITH EYES OF FIRE AND

FEET LIKE GLOWING BRASS AND A GOLDEN THRONE WITH MILLIONS

OF ANGELS BOWING BEFORE YOU WHILE TRAVELING THE UNIVERSE

ON A SEA OF BLUE SHIMMERING GLASS. TRAVELLING TO DIFFERENT GALAXIES

AND TERRAFORMING PLANETS AND CREATING DIFFERENT ANIMALS TO ENJOY.

THAT WILL BE PART OF YOUR ACTIVITIES AS ONE OF THE GODS IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ezekiel 8:2 Then I beheld, and lo a likeness as the appearance of fire: from the appearance of his loins even downward, fire; and from his loins even upward, as the appearance of brightness, as the colour of amber.


James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the rich in faith,

and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;

Galatians 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son;

and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.


===================================================

 

[PureX]

Why? Are you sure that this, there must exist a will to exist isn't confirmation bias? ie, it "must" be that way because that's that's the way you want it.

Actually, it's self-evident. Existence expresses itself by perpetuating itself. This is not an illusion. This is not an opinion. This is a fact of reality.

Personally I find a natural existence just as it is because it has no alternative, infinitely more interesting than there could be a mysterious supernatural agent somewhere, in charge of it all, pulling the strings, so to speak. Surly that would present way more questions than answers?

Non-existence is the alternative. And yet that was not the choice, made, even though it clearly would have been the easier choice. As it required nothing to accomplish. To exist, requires the will to do so. Existence, itself is an expression of will.

 

[PureX]

Well, we've been down this road a couple of times now...so no use in retreading it again. Seems this his curtain leaves you uneasy, as a result you refuse to peek beyond it's cherished pre-configuration. All I ask is to grant it a quick glance.

We are not able to "peek behind this curtain". We may well NEVER BE ABLE to do so. Yet I am not at all "uneasy" with this. In fact, I am very appreciative toward the mysteries of my existence. I would not want to exist without them. In fact, to do so would seem to me to be purposeless. At least now, I have the purpose of curiosity, of imagination and speculation, and of contemplating these mysteries. Having the answers would be … despairing.

Please note that you have not been able to support your assumption that existence is a random, purposeless accident. You didn't really even try.

 

[Ben Masada]

1 - This and other scriptures show that everything about us is recorded so that we may be called back intobeing.

2 - Ezekiel 37:3 He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” I said, “Sovereign Lord, you alone know.”

3 - Matthew 10:30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

1 - How about a quote to verify what you are saying? I find too hard to take people's word for it.

2 - The Sovereign Lord has already shared with those who study prophecies. The dry bones in the prophecy of Ezek. 37:12 is a reference to the Jews in exile. According to Isa. 53:8,9, exile for the Jews is akin to being cut off from land of the living aka Israel and buried among the nations. At the end of the exile, the Lord opens up
those graves and brings them back to the Land of Israel.

3 - Now we also know that the dry bones of Ezekiel have revived as they are back in the Land of Israel.

 

[Ben Masada]

A Proof that God Exists.

A Proof that God Exists.

The human genome map has been completed, and we have computers that can communicate between the brain and limb, and yet there are still people who do not believe in a resurrection.

Well, can the Lord change His mind? Absolutely not if you read Numb. 23:19. He revealed to His Prophets that, once dead, no one will ever returned. (II Sam. 12:23; 14:14) Also Isa. 26:14 and Job 7:9; 10:21) Resurrection is a Christian doctrine originated with Paul if you read II Tim. 2:8. Here Paul said that it was according to his - Paul's gospel - that Jesus resurrected. Till then, Jews knew nothing about bodily resurrection.

 

[quip]

We are not able to "peek behind this curtain". We may well NEVER BE ABLE to do so. Yet I am not at all "uneasy" with this. In fact, I am very appreciative toward the mysteries of my existence. I would not want to exist without them. In fact, to do so would seem to me to be purposeless. At least now, I have the purpose of curiosity, of imagination and speculation, and of contemplating these mysteries. Having the answers would be … despairing.

Just read what you write. You proceed from "not at all uneasy" to "despair". :idunno:

Please note that you have not been able to support your assumption that existence is a random, purposeless accident. You didn't really even try.

That's not my assumption at all! :sigh: My position is that creation origins remain unfathomable .....the "designed or random creation" dichotomy is a false one.

 

[Ben Masada]

A Proof that God Exists.

A Proof that God Exists.

How exactly does, the universe had a beginning, prove that a God must have done it?

Thus: With the beginning of the universe, the fact is established that it did not always existed and that, since it could not have caused itself to exist, it is only obvious that it was caused to exist by something that preceded it; Something bigger than the universe in supernatural power. Hence, the Primal Cause has been proved to exist.

 

[bybee]

Thus: With the beginning of the universe, the fact is established that it did not always existed and that, since it could not have caused itself to exist, it is only obvious that it was caused to exist by something that preceded it; Something bigger than the universe in supernatural power. Hence, the Primal Cause has been proved to exist.

Works for me!

 

[quip]

Works for me!

Just like that....Why?

Would an alternate answer leave you uneasy?

 

[Ben Masada]

A Proof that God Exists.

A Proof that God Exists.

In the day of the disciples there were false teachers leading the followers astray. Ben, you have more false notions than any person I have ever met.

False teachers have always existed either in the days of the disciples or in our days. All you need is to sit down to listen to the enormous number of TV preachers.

Soon after Jesus had been gone, Paul appeared saying that the disciples of Jesus were false apostles disguised as apostles of "Christ" preaching a gospel different from his and about what seemed to be a different Jesus so-to-speak. (II Cor. 11:4-6,13)

 

[Ben Masada]

Proof that God Exists.

Proof that God Exists.

There is no 'proof' that God exists, of course. But I do believe that there is reasonable evidence to suggest that a God exists. Some will dismiss that evidence, and some will accept it, but I do believe it's more reasonable to accept it as it is reasonable evidence, even if we can't yet accept it as conclusive evidence.

I, personally, don't choose to believe in the reality of God based on objective or empirical evidence, alone, anyway. I choose to believe it based on the results of such belief, and on the fact that I have no proof or conclusive evidence to the contrary. And I find the results of such a belief to be positive, overall. And so until someone can show me that such a belief is wrong, I will continue to hold to it.

While you hold unto it, would you please tell me: Did the universe cause itself to exist or was caused by something that preceded it? Please, just don't tell me that it always existed because this theory of Aristotle died in 1922 when Cosmology found out that the universe did have a beginning with the big bang which was only a confirmation of the Biblical text that for over 4000 years has been talking about the beginning of the universe. (Gen. 1:1)

 

[Ben Masada]

A Proof that God Exists.

A Proof that God Exists.

Theist and atheist: the fight between them is as to whether God shall be called God or shall have some other name.

- Samuel Butler

A name, any name for God is no evidence of His existence.The truth is not in the name of God but in the works of His hands. (Psa. 19:1) In the cause of the universe to exist, for instance, because the matter of fact is that it could not have caused itself to exist. It is only obvious that something bigger than the universe caused it to exist.