A Proof that God Exists

[Interplanner]

Energy is "force of will". Energy is "something trying to happen". Literally. How else do we describe it?
Existence is an event taking place. It is not an object that "simply is". It's a happening. It is energy being expressed, as chaos, and as limitation. And that limitation within the chaos is providing the order that is 'designing' the way the energy is being expressed: the way existence exists.

It's time for you to stop repeating these mantras, and start explaining why you think they are true. Because I do not believe you can do that.

In the Christian view, things (all entities outside of God) exist for his glory. That declaration eliminates a lot of confusion, however, there is one thing unstated about it: it implies that this glorification is to be seen or observed. So immediately after saying they exist for his glory, we should add that each thing is to see that take place.

That is the intended purpose of 'things' (all entities outside of God). But some of them, since Satan's decision to contradict this, have imagined many other purposes for 'things' and/or imagined that there was no Creator.

 

[exminister]

You seem to be assuming that chance cannot be part of the design. Why?

Existence is the result of both chaos (chance), and limitation (order). Chance alone would result in only chaos. Limitation alone would result in only stasis. Neither of which could ever produce … anything. As they are absolute conceptual states. But existence occurs in the balance between these two states. Chaos provides the chance for things to happen, while limitation provides the opportunity for some of those things to maintain, while others cannot. A 'structure' is thus enabled.

Put more simply, energy can express itself is some ways, but not in others. And the ways that energy can and does express itself, determines the nature and maintains the integrity of existence. There is order in the way energy is being expressed. And that order provides the design through which energy is being expressed as existence.

The design includes both chaos (chance), and limitation (order).

Why is there far more chaos? Your last sentence feels like there should be more balance.

 

[exminister]

Well, I say, let's prove God exist, then we can bring Him down to our level and he can be like us, feeble, diminutive, unpowerful, lost, going to and fro looking for something.

I really like what you have written here. It seems to have multiple implications. Humans are incapable of knowing the unknowable and when they do or attempt to it degrades it, bringing it to the lowest common denominator. Something that should be rejected.

Who is man? Can the clay say to the potter?

Being open and fully aware of our small place in the universe keeps me humble, which is a good thing.

 

[quip]

Energy is "the force of will". Energy is "something trying to happen". Literally. How else do we describe it?
Existence is an event taking place. It is not an object that "simply is". It's a happening. It is energy being expressed, as chaos, and as limitation, simultaneously. And that limitation within the chaos is providing the order that is 'designing' the way the energy is being expressed: the way existence exists.

We do not know the origin of the energy, or of the limitations within it that design existence. But both now exist for us to contemplate, and we exist to contemplate them.

Energy is without purposeful will. You've (willfully) assigned it one otherwise, nothing more.

 

[PureX]

Why is there far more chaos? Your last sentence feels like there should be more balance.

There is balance. Perhaps you're just choosing to see the chaos, while overlooking the order.

Everything that exists is expressing order: complexity: cooperation.

 

[bybee]

Energy is without purposeful will. You've (willfully) assigned it one otherwise, nothing more.

What is the point of existence without a purpose? At the very foundation of being there must exist a will to exist.

 

[PureX]

Energy is without purposeful will. You've (willfully) assigned it one otherwise, nothing more.

Energy is will, itself. The will to be expressed. It is not possible to define it otherwise. As I have noticed you have not done.

Perhaps you are assuming force of will to be self-conscious (purposeful), and this is why you are stumbling, here. I am not making this assumption.

 

[chrysostom]

What is the point of existence without a purpose?

there is a purpose
there is always a purpose
this is a test

a test of our free will

 

[quip]

Energy is will, itself. The will to be expressed. It is not possible to define it otherwise. As I have noticed you have not done.

Perhaps you are assuming force of will to be self-conscious (purposeful), and this is why you are stumbling, here. I am not making this assumption.

You're just differentiating blind from purposeful force.

To "design" (verb: by definition) is to purposely, willfully create.

 

[PureX]

You're just differentiating blind from purposeful force.

To "design" (verb: by definition) is to purposely, willfully create.

The inferred purpose does not come from the energy (raw will to expression). It comes from the limitations being imposed on the way that raw will is being expressed. It comes from this imposed order (design). Thus, the energy itself is raw will: purposeless. The limitations being imposed on it's expression, however, does imply purpose. So that TOGETHER, they become both willful and purposeful. (Or so it appears to us.)

 

[quip]

(Or so it appears to us.)

Exactly!

 

[PureX]

Exactly!

Well, it wouldn't make much sense for us to deny how it appears to be, to us, for how it does not appear to be, to us, now would it.

 

[quip]

Well, it wouldn't make much sense for us to deny how it appears to be, to us, for how it does not appear to be, to us, now would it.

Ever hear of the concept of naive realism? (To a few, revealing "Oz" by parting the curtain ....holds significant value.)

To each his own, I suppose. :idunno:

 

[CherubRam]

There are two aspects to consider, chaos, and design. Did the life forms in this world arise from chaos at about the same time, or are they produced by design?

The missing links are missing for a reason.

 

[quip]

What is the point of existence without a purpose? At the very foundation of being there must exist a will to exist.

Well, there's the natural instinct for self-preservation beyond that your purpose is what you make it out to be.

 

[quip]

There are two aspects to consider, chaos, and design. Did the life forms in this world arise from chaos at about the same time, or are they produced by design?

The missing links are missing for a reason.

Or that life simply IS; origin unfathomable, while wishful delusion mollifies the uncomfortable fact of life's inscrutability.

 

[exminister]

There is balance. Perhaps you're just choosing to see the chaos, while overlooking the order.

Everything that exists is expressing order: complexity: cooperation.

Re-reading you prior post to me and this one I understand what you have written. A point to ponder. I have focused more on the chaos. Fear lends itself to that. And I have been a part of churches who focus always on the bad. You know Jesus will be here any minute because Muslims are taking over, or Obama is taking our guns, or the planets are aligning, or there is war in the Middle East and it is really Armageddon this time, or this Pope is the anti-Christ, or homosexuals can marry, or the Chinese are infiltrating our internet, or we will accidentally shoot down a Russian MIG over Syria starting WW3, or the Iranians or North Koreans will nuke us, or someone will release a virus that will kill most of mankind, etc. I have heard enough of this my whole life. Fear to scare you straight into the church. This has harmed my faith. What's the point in believing in an All-powerful God if I cannot rest in Him and let Him fret over such things. I love the story in Acts where Paul just shakes off a poisonous snake (asp) into a fire and continues on eating or whatever. No fear. That's living.

 

[ok doser]

there is a purpose
there is always a purpose
this is a test

a test of our free will

is it a special purpose?

 

[PureX]

Ever hear of the concept of naive realism? (To a few, revealing "Oz" by parting the curtain ....holds significant value.)

To each his own, I suppose. :idunno:

You don't see any further behind that curtain than I or anyone else, does. What we do all see is design, and the implication of purpose via that design. What we make of that is, as you say, up to us.

I am not claiming proof of any creator-god. I am simply pointing out that THERE IS EVIDENCE to suggest such a thing. While here is no evidence to suggest that there is not, unless we irrationally accept no evidence, as evidence.

 

[PureX]

Re-reading you prior post to me and this one I understand what you have written. A point to ponder. I have focused more on the chaos. Fear lends itself to that. And I have been a part of churches who focus always on the bad. You know Jesus will be here any minute because Muslims are taking over, or Obama is taking our guns, or the planets are aligning, or there is war in the Middle East and it is really Armageddon this time, or this Pope is the anti-Christ, or homosexuals can marry, or the Chinese are infiltrating our internet, or we will accidentally shoot down a Russian MIG over Syria starting WW3, or the Iranians or North Koreans will nuke us, or someone will release a virus that will kill most of mankind, etc. I have heard enough of this my whole life. Fear to scare you straight into the church. This has harmed my faith. What's the point in believing in an All-powerful God if I cannot rest in Him and let Him fret over such things. I love the story in Acts where Paul just shakes off a poisonous snake (asp) into a fire and continues on eating or whatever. No fear. That's living.

I agree. And it's interesting to note that this sort of fear-mongering has been going on for many centuries. And yet we are still here.

I'm not saying there is no reason to be apprehensive about our future, because there is. But as you say, we can't really live that way. So we may as well just hold on to faith, and live the best life we can for as long as we have.

:up: