ECT A challenge to Calvinism on limited atonement

[Totton Linnet]

The fiery serpents were miraculously sent upon the elect for they had rebelled against immediate revelation, now it is true a fiery serpent might have come upon a Chinese man not because he had rebelled against immediate revelation but because father Adam had rebelled and he is in the image of Adam....but the Chinese man has not the serpent lifted up to look upon and be healed.

Now look here this is not difficult, Israel was God's elect nation out from among the nations. we all accept that, but it is only a very small step then to say that the church of God is an elect nation within and among the nations.

This is discriminating grace, particular redemption, election.

But WHY? for to what purpose?

People say oh but God hardened Pharoah's heart and suppose that all Egypt was hardened, Egypt was not elect. But actually a great number of Egyptians were saved. Many more times than the few who came out with Israel. We read the mid wives, we read that Moses and Aaron were held in high esteem at Pharoah's court, we read that all who heeded Moses saved their flocks and goods from the plagues. Many enriched the Jews as they went out.

Many Babylonians were saved through the witness of Daniel.

The election is not salvation per se, it is not to exclude but to include. When looked at like that then you see how wrong Limited atonement must be.

However that may be we must not be blind to mistake tares for wheat, snakes for doves, where are they? in the church...oh yes or on the periphery at least. They are drawn to Christ just as we are, not to be saved but to fight against Him and grab if it were possible the kingdom.

 

[Sonnet]

The fiery serpents were miraculously sent upon the elect for they had rebelled against immediate revelation, now it is true a fiery serpent might have come upon a Chinese man not because he had rebelled against immediate revelation but because father Adam had rebelled and he is in the image of Adam....but the Chinese man has not the serpent lifted up to look upon and be healed.

Now look here this is not difficult, Israel was God's elect nation out from among the nations. we all accept that, but it is only a very small step then to say that the church of God is an elect nation within and among the nations.

This is discriminating grace, particular redemption, election.

But WHY? for to what purpose?

People say oh but God hardened Pharoah's heart and suppose that all Egypt was hardened, Egypt was not elect. But actually a great number of Egyptians were saved. Many more times than the few who came out with Israel. We read the mid wives, we read that Moses and Aaron were held in high esteem at Pharoah's court, we read that all who heeded Moses saved their flocks and goods from the plagues. Many enriched the Jews as they went out.

Many Babylonians were saved through the witness of Daniel.

The election is not salvation per se, it is not to exclude but to include. When looked at like that then you see how wrong Limited atonement must be.

However that may be

I think you are redefining the phrase 'particular redemption'. I have no argument with you since you reject LA.

LA, PR and DA are used interchangeably.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Particular redemption is achieved by the Holy Ghost when the gospel is preached...He saves who He will and adds to the church who He will [and bearing Saul of Tarsus in mind] and when He will.

But while men sleep the enemy sows tares among the wheat. Sends wolves dressed as sheep....see how it is?

 

[Sonnet]

The fiery serpents were miraculously sent upon the elect for they had rebelled against immediate revelation, now it is true a fiery serpent might have come upon a Chinese man not because he had rebelled against immediate revelation but because father Adam had rebelled and he is in the image of Adam....but the Chinese man has not the serpent lifted up to look upon and be healed.

Now look here this is not difficult, Israel was God's elect nation out from among the nations. we all accept that, but it is only a very small step then to say that the church of God is an elect nation within and among the nations.

This is discriminating grace, particular redemption, election.

But WHY? for to what purpose?

People say oh but God hardened Pharoah's heart and suppose that all Egypt was hardened, Egypt was not elect. But actually a great number of Egyptians were saved. Many more times than the few who came out with Israel. We read the mid wives, we read that Moses and Aaron were held in high esteem at Pharoah's court, we read that all who heeded Moses saved their flocks and goods from the plagues. Many enriched the Jews as they went out.

Many Babylonians were saved through the witness of Daniel.

The election is not salvation per se, it is not to exclude but to include. When looked at like that then you see how wrong Limited atonement must be.

However that may be we must not be blind to mistake tares for wheat, snakes for doves, where are they? in the church...oh yes or on the periphery at least. They are drawn to Christ just as we are, not to be saved but to fight against Him and grab if it were possible the kingdom.

I agree.

1 Peter 1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

God elected to save through Christ - not through anyone attaining righteousness through works. And faith is not a work of righteousness.

 

[Sonnet]

Particular redemption is achieved by the Holy Ghost when the gospel is preached...He saves who He will and adds to the church who He will [and bearing Saul of Tarsus in mind] and when He will.

But while men sleep the enemy sows tares among the wheat. Sends wolves dressed as sheep....see how it is?

Saul chose obedience to the call.

 

[Totton Linnet]

C'monnnnn Paul had a choice? This is where people fail to grasp, now Paul chose, Paul elected. We had said God elected, God chose. Jesus said "You have NOT chosen Me but I have chosen you"

God is totally irresistible, ask Jonah. I know it doesn't seem that way but when God gets you into that corner the only way out is to obey.

Freewill is pah!

God totally conquers our will and subdues it....this is a very obnoxious truth to the flesh, especially American Democratic flesh.....humbling

God conquers us with love, tough love if necessary. In this doctrine is perfect rest

 

[Sonnet]

C'monnnnn Paul had a choice? This is where people fail to grasp, now Paul chose, Paul elected. We had said God elected, God chose. Jesus said "You have NOT chosen Me but I have chosen you"

God is totally irresistible, ask Jonah. I know it doesn't seem that way but when God gets you into that corner the only way out is to obey.

Freewill is pah!

God totally conquers our will and subdues it....this is a very obnoxious truth to the flesh, especially American Democratic flesh.....humbling

God conquers us with love, tough love if necessary. In this doctrine is perfect rest

Acts 26:19
“So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven.

 

[Sonnet]

C'monnnnn Paul had a choice? This is where people fail to grasp, now Paul chose, Paul elected. We had said God elected, God chose. Jesus said "You have NOT chosen Me but I have chosen you"

God is totally irresistible, ask Jonah. I know it doesn't seem that way but when God gets you into that corner the only way out is to obey.

Freewill is pah!

God totally conquers our will and subdues it....this is a very obnoxious truth to the flesh, especially American Democratic flesh.....humbling

God conquers us with love, tough love if necessary. In this doctrine is perfect rest

Without man's ability to choose then God's creation would be worthless.

 

[Nang]

Without man's ability to choose then God's creation would be worthless.

Man's ability to choose, has corrupted God's creation.

Haven't you heard?

That is because man's choices are not free, but are consequential, for which God holds men responsible.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Without man's ability to choose then God's creation would be worthless.

Man did choose, that is how we ended up in this mess, the ability to choose is not freewill however....you cain't choose to rebel and live forever. You can only choose the options presented. Neither do you control the consequences of your choice.

But now man HAS chosen, he can only be saved now by God's sovereign will.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Acts 26:19
“So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven.

In another place he says he has no choice but is under obligation to preach the gospel. Because he was not disobedient does not quite say he had a choice...any more than Jonah or Jeremiah.

Paul speaks of himself as a slave.

If you trust God's good and perfect will this presents no problem. In fact in finding God's good and perfect will we will find perfect freedom

Freedom to be what we are created to be

 

[Crucible]

Without man's ability to choose then God's creation would be worthless.

Man's free will is depraved, unable to do any work that is beneficial to God.
Only through God's elect, where the light of this world shows, is there any good on this Earth.

 

[Sonnet]

Man's ability to choose, has corrupted God's creation.

Haven't you heard?

That is because man's choices are not free, but are consequential, for which God holds men responsible.

?

 

[Sonnet]

Man did choose, that is how we ended up in this mess, the ability to choose is not freewill however....you cain't choose to rebel and live forever. You can only choose the options presented. Neither do you control the consequences of your choice.

But now man HAS chosen, he can only be saved now by God's sovereign will.

I'm not sure what you are saying here.

 

[Sonnet]

In another place he says he has no choice but is under obligation to preach the gospel. Because he was not disobedient does not quite say he had a choice...any more than Jonah or Jeremiah.

Where? Romans 1:14?

Paul speaks of himself as a slave.

If you trust God's good and perfect will this presents no problem. In fact in finding God's good and perfect will we will find perfect freedom

Freedom to be what we are created to be

If you believe in double predestination then why don't you believe in limited atonement?

 

[Crucible]

Where? Romans 1:14?



If you believe in double predestination then why don't you believe in limited atonement?

Limited Atonement is the doctrine which expresses that a man is not saved by believing in Christ, but rather believes in Christ because he is saved.

The elected-
the real men

 

[Sonnet]

Man's free will is depraved, unable to do any work that is beneficial to God.
Only through God's elect, where the light of this world shows, is there any good on this Earth.

Scripture clearly teaches that faith in God is possible. Indeed, Paul emphasises that it's not up in heaven nor down in the deep - thus out of one's reach. Was he lying? Misleading them?

You seem to be asserting the very opposite.

In Romans 10, Paul speaks of his desire for his brethren - the Israelites, 'that they may be saved.' Then Paul actually holds out the prospect of them believing:

'...that God raised him from the dead.'

If, and only if, Jesus died for ALL the Israelites can Paul suggest they believe in his resurrection; else he is, indeed, misleading them.

It's no wonder, then, as the OP suggests, that there is no valid reason why any Christian may not preach, word for word, Paul's Corinthian Gospel to whomever.

 

[Sonnet]

Limited Atonement is the doctrine which expresses that a man is not saved by believing in Christ, but rather believes in Christ because he is saved.

There are no scriptures that explicitly teach limited atonement; but plenty that teach that Christ died for all.

The elected-
the real men

Real men? What are you suggesting?

 

[Sonnet]

Limited Atonement is the doctrine which expresses that a man is not saved by believing in Christ, but rather believes in Christ because he is saved.

The elected-
the real men

Are you actually going to address the specifics of the OP?

 

[Sonnet]

Limited Atonement is the doctrine which expresses that a man is not saved by believing in Christ, but rather believes in Christ because he is saved.

The elected-
the real men

Not one scripture explicitly teaches limited atonement.