ECT A challenge to Calvinism on limited atonement

Sonnet

Sonnet

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Lon said:
...jumping in the middle of a conversation...
Sonnet: So if I call on the name of the Lord, I will be saved?
Lon: That is what scripture says
Sonnet: Does that mean Christ died for me?
Lon: Yes.
Sonnet: How can you say that as a Calvinist? Don't you believe Christ only died for the elect?
Lon: Yes. When I said yes, it was to both your calling on the name of the Lord and Christ dying on the Cross for your sins.
Sonnet: But what if I don't call on His name?
Lon: That would be your decision.
Sonnet: So Christ didn't die for my sins?
Lon: Christ died for the sins of all those who call on the name of the Lord. It may sound circular, but only those who call on the Name of the Lord will be concerned with this. A person who is not moved by the work of Christ will also not care whether Christ died specifically for the or not. I do know, however, that those who do care, Christ specifically died to save them and knew of them when He laid down His life.
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continuing.......

Sonnet: But the only reason I care is because, since God picked me, I'm regenerated to care?
Lon: Yes.
Sonnet: And the rest are not enabled to care?
Lon: Yes.
Sonnet: I don't see that as good news.

It is more philosophical at this point: Can God do something and it is not accomplished? Isaiah 46:10 and 55:11 For the Calvinist, if God sets to save all, He saves literally all He can save. Is there effort to save that which will not/cannot be saved? I understand the dissention with us here. As I said, this was a really hard hurdle for me as well. I'm simply trying to effectively answer your question. I also appreciate ensuing questions too, and thank you.
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I don't know why you have quoted those scriptures.

As I said, I may not be classically Calvinist on this point. I simply believe in some ways, at least, the atonement is limited. As with your analogy, those who had already been bitten and died, did not receive the benefit of that bronze serpent. Generally, I believe John 3:16 as 'world' but I recognize that those who died without faith before Christ, weren't included as 'world' as far as I understand.
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The analogy is made with the lifting up of the bronze serpent, not with events before or after so I'd say we needn't concern ourselves with that which Jesus did not liken his crucifixion to.



I'm still interested to know what 1 Cor 15:11 means to you. Paul said 'preach'. You appear to be adding 'to the converted'.
 
Crucible

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Predestination theology was disputed by ex-Calvinists, and Arminius was one of them.

They resurfaced Prevenient Grace, a Catholic doctrine, to counter Unconditional Election.

As I;ve said: counter-Reformists :rolleyes:

Run back to your pope, or shove off :wave:
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

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Crucible said:
Predestination theology was disputed by ex-Calvinists, and Arminius was one of them.

They resurfaced Prevenient Grace, a Catholic doctrine, to counter Unconditional Election.

As I;ve said: counter-Reformists :rolleyes:

Run back to your pope, or shove off :wave:
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Again, nothing at all that deals with the specifics of the OP.
 
Lon

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Needed to tweak this a bit:
Sonnet said:
continuing.......

Sonnet: But the only reason I care is because, since God picked me, I'm regenerated to care?
Lon: I think we do have the heart of God. I deeply care about those who are lost. I don't even have a problem with you telling them what you believe.
Sonnet: And the rest are not enabled to care?
Lon: I can't speak for the lost. I've no idea how, when hearing Christ died to save sinners, and even with others telling them Christ died to specifically save them, they can turn away. In my estimation, they don't respond to EITHER message :(
Sonnet: I don't see that as good news.
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I don't either. How can one, upon hearing that all who call on the name of the Lord, will not be saved? I believe God is in the business of saving. I believe sin both condemns us, and also, keeps people who love their autonomy, from Him. I know you feel bad for them, but their answer is "no" no matter what you say. We can pray. God is much more efficient than you and I. I don't everything. God does. At some point in my life, or several points, I had to learn to simply trust Him and truly believe He is a better lover than I am.


Sonnet said:
I don't know why you have quoted those scriptures.
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It goes back to God accomplishing His tasks, without fail. So two points: 1) God loves and His business is seeking and saving and 2) that all that can be saved will be saved.


Sonnet said:
The analogy is made with the lifting up of the bronze serpent, not with events before or after so I'd say we needn't concern ourselves with that which Jesus did not liken his crucifixion to.
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Well, it is my entrance into 5 points of Calvinism from 3 1/2 points prior. If it isn't a concern, then some say at this point I'm not a Calvinist then, and some simply say "it isn't a concern" and it becomes shortly the end of the limited conversation.

Sonnet said:
I'm still interested to know what 1 Cor 15:11 means to you. Paul said 'preach'. You appear to be adding 'to the converted'.
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I've no idea who those are, before their coming to Christ. Christ died for sins, and all sins of everyone that calls upon the name of the Lord. In that sense, only the one who calls is saved. No unbeliever will miss that without choosing not to call by their will. Many or all of our unbelievers on TOL have been told all who call on the Name of the Lord will be saved and they all know if they did that or not as well as knowing it was their deliberate choice.
 
Sonnet

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Lon said:
Needed to tweak this a bit:

I don't either. How can one, upon hearing that all who call on the name of the Lord, will not be saved? I believe God is in the business of saving. I believe sin both condemns us, and also, keeps people who love their autonomy, from Him. I know you feel bad for them, but their answer is "no" no matter what you say. We can pray. God is much more efficient than you and I. I don't everything. God does. At some point in my life, or several points, I had to learn to simply trust Him and truly believe He is a better lover than I am.



It goes back to God accomplishing His tasks, without fail. So two points: 1) God loves and His business is seeking and saving and 2) that all that can be saved will be saved.



Well, it is my entrance into 5 points of Calvinism from 3 1/2 points prior. If it isn't a concern, then some say at this point I'm not a Calvinist then, and some simply say "it isn't a concern" and it becomes shortly the end of the limited conversation.

I've no idea who those are, before their coming to Christ. Christ died for sins, and all sins of everyone that calls upon the name of the Lord. In that sense, only the one who calls is saved. No unbeliever will miss that without choosing not to call by their will. Many or all of our unbelievers on TOL have been told all who call on the Name of the Lord will be saved and they all know if they did that or not as well as knowing it was their deliberate choice.
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We appear to have reached a stalemate.
You are a very moderate Calvinist I would say. I, too, would emphatically assert God's sovereignty, though, the mechanics of how, if a man man choose faith or otherwise, remain a mystery.
 
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Sonnet

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So far on this thread no valid reason has been given as to why a Christian should not preach Paul's Gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:3-8) word for word. Such a Christian decides to do so because of Paul's curse on the preaching of other Gospels (Galatians 1:8-9).

If no reason is given, then limited atonement is proven false. You can't preach, 'Christ died for our sins,' to all and sundry if Christ did not die for all without exception.
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

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Paul did not say, '...this is what we preach to the converted...'
He said, '...this is what we preach...'

The fact that Paul also said, '...and this is what you believed,' clearly shows that this Gospel was preached to them when they were unbelievers.
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

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Not one single scripture explicitly says that Christ died for less than all men. Not one.

Numerous explicit scriptures to the contrary. 1 Tim 2:6. Heb 2:9. 1 John 2:2.
 
chrysostom

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Sonnet said:
Not one single scripture explicitly says that Christ died for less than all men. Not one.

Numerous explicit scriptures to the contrary. 1 Tim 2:6. Heb 2:9. 1 John 2:2.
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limited atonement and unconditional election make no sense at all
-but
-are necessary for tulip
 
Tambora

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Sonnet said:
So far on this thread no valid reason has been given as to why a Christian should not preach Paul's Gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:3-8) word for word. Such a Christian decides to do so because of Paul's curse on the preaching of other Gospels (Galatians 1:8-9).

If no reason is given, then limited atonement is proven false. You can't preach, 'Christ died for our sins,' to all and sundry if Christ did not die for all without exception.
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So true.

The cross was compared with the serpent on the pole.
Only the Israelites that looked upon it were healed, but it was provided for all the Israelites.


John 3:14 KJV​
(14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:​
 
Sonnet

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Tambora said:
So true.

The cross was compared with the serpent on the pole.
Only the Israelites that looked upon it were healed, but it was provided for all the Israelites.


John 3:14 KJV​
(14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:​
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Indeed.
 
Totton Linnet

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Tambora said:
So true.

The cross was compared with the serpent on the pole.
Only the Israelites that looked upon it were healed, but it was provided for all the Israelites.


John 3:14 KJV​
(14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:​
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And yet dearest Tams....Anakim were not invited to look upon the serpent lifted up, the Canaanites, the Chinese. Only elect Israel were invited to look and be healed.


....only elect Israel were plagued by fiery serpents
 
Sonnet

Sonnet

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Totton Linnet said:
And yet dearest Tams....Anakim were not invited to look upon the serpent lifted up, the Canaanites, the Chinese. Only elect Israel were invited to look and be healed.


....only elect Israel were plagued by fiery serpents
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In the analogy, peoples such as the Anakim, Canaanites and Chinese were not snake-bitten and about to die; anything beyond that which is included in the source of the analogy is not relevant.
 
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