No Longer A Christian

Zakath · Sep 21, 2004

Originally posted by Nineveh

Eyewitness accounts

Oh, you've interviewed one or more of these alleged "eyewitnesses" yourself?

Heard their testimony from their own mouths?

Did you speak to them in their native languages to reduce the possiblity of miscommunication?

... or is it only something you've read about second, third, or many hands removed? :think:

brother Willi · Sep 21, 2004

those who seek a natural solution, for what God has done, will miss the truth

wickwoman · Sep 21, 2004

Originally posted by Zakath

Wickwoman,

"One cannot have relations with dead people. It's against the law..." :chuckle:

You're cracking me up here! :thumb:

Thank you. It's an honor.

Zakath · Sep 21, 2004

Originally posted by brother Willi

those who seek a natural solution, for what God has done, will miss the truth

What truth is that, Willi? That the alleged deity provides unnatural solutions?

Hardly a profound revelation.

Nineveh · Sep 21, 2004

Originally posted by Zakath

Oh, you've interviewed one or more of these alleged "eyewitnesses" yourself?

The "enlightened" didn't believe there was a Troy, until they dug it up. Same goes for Nineveh.

Heard their testimony from their own mouths?

Even the religious leaders at the time couldn't discount what happened, they could only put their spin to it.

... or is it only something you've read about second, third, or many hands removed? :think:

You can go on believing that if you like. Far be it from me to convince you other wise

Zakath · Sep 21, 2004

Originally posted by Nineveh

The "enlightened" didn't believe there was a Troy, until they dug it up. Same goes for Nineveh.

But the histriocity of Troy and Nineveh were not based on claims of supernatural events...

Big difference.

Even the religious leaders at the time couldn't discount what happened, they could only put their spin to it.

Assuming, of course, that those stories are any more reliable than the resurrection story.

When people want to believe in something, they will, regardless of evidence, or lack thereof. You are a case in point.

You need to have a god for your own particular reasons, so you feel you must believe to give your life meaning. There is almost no evidence or lack of evidence that would shake your belief.

I can identify with that position. I held it at one time myself.

You can go on believing that if you like. Far be it from me to convince you other wise

Very, very far. :thumb:

By the way, you never did directly answer my questions... should we assume that you have not ever personally met one of these alleged "eyewitnesses"?

That you have never actually interviewed one in their native language?

That you are merely relying on "hearsay" evidence, for which the original sources no longer exist?

Essentially your faith seems to be based on a several thousand year old game of "telephone".

:doh:

What a fragile framework upon which to pin your hopes for your allegedly eternal destiny...

PureX · Sep 21, 2004

Originally posted by granite1010 I think it's less a matter of finding "truth" as opposed to escaping hell. That's the bedrock of Christianity: not the Bible, not Jesus, but hell. Eternal torture is what this religion is based on.

Exactly. These absolutist religions are all based on fear - the fear of hell. And what sends one to hell? .... Being "wrong": believing in the "wrong" religious dogma. Absolutist religion is all about inventing and maintaining the illusion of one's own righteousness, because to be "wrong" is perceived as the equivilant of going to hell.

These absolutist religions have nothing to do with love or forgiveness or peace or tolerance. All they're about is the illusion of being right and the fear of being wrong. And that's why they make their participants miserable, and why they become so violently defensive and antagonistic toward any other veiw of God, life, and reality.

Nineveh · Sep 21, 2004

Originally posted by Zakath

But the histriocity of Troy and Nineveh were not based on claims of supernatural events...

The question is the accounts. Those two accounts were considered "untue" until physical evidence was dug up. One is secular from the Illiad, the other Biblical from the Books of Genesis, Jonah and Nahum.

Assuming, of course, that those stories are any more reliable than the resurrection story.

I'll leave battling the Pharisees and Sadducees to you. After all, they are on your side of the issue

(Except Paul, who had a "change of heart". )

When people want to believe in something, they will, regardless of evidence, or lack thereof. You are a case in point.

Same backatcha

You need to have a god for your own particular reasons, so you feel you must believe to give your life meaning. There is almost no evidence or lack of evidence that would shake your belief.

lol...

Thanks for the psychoanalysis, I asume it's a freebie

It would profit you more to turn that lens on your own soul, however.

I can identify with that position. I held it at one time myself.

Do you assume I was always a Christ follower, then?

By the way, you never did directly answer my questions... should we assume that you have not ever personally met one of these alleged "eyewitnesses"?

I'm sorry you didn't like my answer (refer to the first paragraph). I guess men landing on the moon is an event in history that can be readily dismissed as soon as everyone who was an eyewitness dies?

What a fragile framework upon which to pin your hopes for your allegedly eternal destiny...

And from my perseptive, you have far far less.

Anyway, this thread isn't about your loss of "faith" it's about granite's.

brother Willi · Sep 21, 2004

Originally posted by Zakath

What truth is that, Willi? That the alleged deity provides unnatural solutions?

Hardly a profound revelation.

provides unnatural solutions?

you find what you seek, its called free will.

it is you who make natural solutions

Granite · Sep 21, 2004

Originally posted by PureX

Exactly. These absolutist religions are all based on fear - the fear of hell. And what sends one to hell? .... Being "wrong": believing in the "wrong" religious dogma. Absolutist religion is all about inventing and maintaining the illusion of one's own righteousness, because to be "wrong" is perceived as the equivilant of going to hell.

These absolutist religions have nothing to do with love or forgiveness or peace or tolerance. All they're about is the illusion of being right and the fear of being wrong. And that's why they make their participants miserable, and why they become so violently defensive and antagonistic toward any other veiw of God, life, and reality.

Right. If the foundation of your faith is fear of torture, that's going to be reflected in everything you do. Sugar coating Christianity does not change what it basically is: control. The hook.

Poly · Sep 21, 2004

:Nineveh: = :box: :zakath: = :dead:

Zakath · Sep 21, 2004

Originally posted by brother Willi

provides unnatural solutions?

Yes, the Christian religion is fundamentally based on "unnatural" or "supernatural" foundations. What about that do you not understand?

you find what you seek, its called free will.

Your response here is unclear. Free will is the ability of an individual to exercise choice, not merely to seek. Water seeks to find the lowest spot on a surface to settle, it does not have free will, so far as we can determine.

:think:

it is you who make natural solutions

Oddly enough, wasn't it supposedly your deity who makes natural solutions? All we humans are supposed to do is discover things...:think:

Zakath · Sep 21, 2004

Originally posted by Poly

:Nineveh: = :box: :zakath: = :dead:

Oh really? Perhaps you should also go for the Ray Charles look...

Re-read her post and tell me which one of my points did she actually refute? :think:

Nearly as I can see, she avoided providing direct answers to every question I raised.

I see lots of dancing about, but haven't felt a blow land yet. :ha:

brother Willi · Sep 21, 2004

Originally posted by Zakath

Yes, the Christian religion is fundamentally based on "unnatural" or "supernatural" foundations. What about that do you not understand?

you are correct
i misread your reply

Your response here is unclear. Free will is the ability of an individual to exercise choice, not merely to seek. Water seeks to find the lowest spot on a surface to settle, it does not have free will, so far as we can determine.

:think:

you are correct, water does not have the ability to seek higher ground.
we do

Oddly enough, wasn't it supposedly your deity who makes natural solutions? All we humans are supposed to do is discover things...:think:

natural in an atheists eye?

brother Willi · Sep 21, 2004

Originally posted by granite1010

Right. If the foundation of your faith is fear of torture, that's going to be reflected in everything you do. Sugar coating Christianity does not change what it basically is: control. The hook.

PLEASE granite, get a "red letter edition" of a Bible.

read ONLY the read letters.

there is no need for sugar.

love is sweeter then sugar

On Fire · Sep 21, 2004

Anyone who comes here or any other web site expecting to find God is just plain stupid. You've got to rub elbows with God's people, confess your sins to God's people, expose your brokeness to God's people, and ask God's people to stand beside you when you feel like doubting.

brother Willi · Sep 21, 2004

Originally posted by On Fire

Anyone who comes here or any other web site expecting to find God is just plain stupid. You've got to rub elbows with God's people, confess your sins to God's people, expose your brokeness to God's people, and ask God's people to stand beside you when you feel like doubting.

that is very true, and wise.

where do we find God's people, are they thirsting for the blood of their enemies?

Zakath · Sep 21, 2004

Originally posted by Nineveh

The question is the accounts. Those two accounts were considered "untue" until physical evidence was dug up. One is secular from the Illiad, the other Biblical from the Books of Genesis, Jonah and Nahum.

Your argument is flawed. If no one believed in their existence, why did someone pay for archeologists to locate them? :think:

I would seriously doubt that the existence of Nineveh was in doubt, what appeared to be in doubt was the exact location of the site of the city which was finally found in the early nineteenth century underneath the modern city of Mosul.

I'll leave battling the Pharisees and Sadducees to you. After all, they are on your side of the issue (Except Paul, who had a "change of heart". )

Oh, you mean after his apparent stroke or seizure on the Damascus road affected his brain? More flimsy framework...

Same backatcha

This is a discussion, not a tennis match. How about an answer?

Thanks for the psychoanalysis, I asume it's a freebie It would profit you more to turn that lens on your own soul, however.

Of course it's free... all my advice here is free.

BTW, remember that I don't have a soul...

Do you assume I was always a Christ follower, then?

I have no idea. It really doesn't matter for the discussion at hand.

I'm sorry you didn't like my answer (refer to the first paragraph). I guess men landing on the moon is an event in history that can be readily dismissed as soon as everyone who was an eyewitness dies?

That's personal preference. But last I heard, George Bush hasn't yet claimed that believing the government's stories about its exploits was a requirement for achieving eternal life...

And from my perseptive, you have far far less.

Since you apparently cannot see beyond your limited worldview, your "Ray Charles" smilie :Nineveh: is appropriate for you then.

Anyway, this thread isn't about your loss of "faith" it's about granite's.

I wasn't taking it there, was I? :think:

Granite · Sep 21, 2004

Originally posted by brother Willi

PLEASE granite, get a "red letter edition" of a Bible.

read ONLY the read letters.

there is no need for sugar.

love is sweeter then sugar

Christ talked about hell more than anyone in the New Testament. Sorry, no dice. In any event, if you're so blinded that you're willing to ignore the lion's share of your own book, I'm not the one with the problem.

Zakath · Sep 21, 2004

Originally posted by brother Willi

that is very true, and wise.

where do we find God's people, are they thirsting for the blood of their enemies?

Yup, apparently... :readthis:

Surely God will crush the heads of his enemies, the hairy crowns of those who go on in their sins. The Lord says, "I will bring them from Bashan; I will bring them from the depths of the sea, that you may plunge your feet in the blood of your foes, while the tongues of your dogs have their share." Ps. 68:21-23

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all â€“ old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

The king's edict granted the Jews in every city the right to assemble and protect themselves; to destroy, kill and annihilate any armed force of any nationality or province that might attack them and their women and children; and to plunder the property of their enemies...The Jews struck down all their enemies with the sword, killing and destroying them, and they did what they pleased to those who hated them. (Esther 8:11 & 9:5)

In your unfailing love, silence my enemies; destroy all my foes, for I am your servant. (Ps. 143:12)

Sounds pretty bloodthirsty to me... :think:

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