No Longer A Christian

[PureX]

Originally posted by granite1010 ...he may be there...but he is silent.

As human beings, I don't believe we can "know God" in the way that some religions claim, and that would be required to know that "God is there". What we can do, though, as limited human beings, is we can choose to trust that God is there even though we can't know it, and through that trust we can begin to see and experience the effect of God in our lives. And we can then experience that effect as love and forgiveness and healing.

We could be wrong, of course, and this "divine effect" we experience could simply be the result of our own imagination's effect upon ourselves, but so what? Does this really matter? If my life is made better by my believing in a loving God even though I can't actually know that this God exists, (neither can I know that this God does NOT exist) then why not choose to believe it? If I become a better man to myself and to everyone around me because I choose to believe that the "evidence" of God is the love in our lives, and in so believing I can develop and share that love with others, why not do it? - Especially when I can't prove this to be UNtrue, either.

I think the only danger in doing this would be in forgetting that this belief is my choice, and is based on faith rather then on knowledge or proof. When that happens I become a liar even to myself, and that kind of dishonesty always causes strife in our lives and in the lives of everyone around us. This is why these absolutist versions of religion are always so harmful.

(Ooops, I hadn't read far enough in the thread to have seen your response to my previous post, so this one may be somewhat irrelevant to you, but I'll leave it here maybe for the benefit of others.)

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by Sozo

So, at what point in your life, did you realize that you were a sinner, separated from God, and that coming to Christ by faith, to receive His life, is your only hope?

I was young. Not that I think it really matters.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by PureX

This is why these absolutist versions of religion are always so harmful.

You sure wouldn't want anyone to get caught up accepting statements like...

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me."

Right?

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by granite1010

Not that I think it really matters.

Apparently, it never did.

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by PureX

As human beings, I don't believe we can "know God" in the way that some religions claim, and that would be required to know that "God is there". What we can do, though, as limited human beings, is we can choose to trust that God is there even though we can't know it, and through that trust we can begin to see and experience the effect of God in our lives. And we can then experience that effect as love and forgiveness and healing.

We could be wrong, of course, and this "divine effect" we experience could simply be the result of our own imagination's effect upon ourselves, but so what? Does this really matter? If my life is made better by my believing in a loving God even though I can't actually know that this God exists, (neither can I know that this God does NOT exist) then why not choose to believe it? If I become a better man to myself and to everyone around me because I choose to believe that the "evidence" of God is the love in our lives, and in so believing I can develop and share that love with others, why not do it? - Especially when I can't prove this to be UNtrue, either.

I think the only danger in doing this would be in forgetting that this belief is my choice, and is based on faith rather then on knowledge or proof. When that happens I become a liar even to myself, and that kind of dishonesty always causes strife in our lives and in the lives of everyone around us. This is why these absolutist versions of religion are always so harmful.

(Ooops, I hadn't read far enough in the thread to have seen your response to my previous post, so this one may be somewhat irrelevant to you, but I'll leave it here maybe for the benefit of others.)

Some people may have better lives by believing in God. But what I see from so many Christians is some kind of weird, self-inflicted sado-masochistic misery. Believing in Jesus certainly doesn't improve the lives of many Christians I know. Unless being a Christian makes you a hypocrite, thief, manipulator, or con man.

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by Sozo

Apparently, it never did.

So what? Sozo, you can't try to say you really care about me (because you don't), and you can't say that playing twenty questions (when were you saved? how old? what did you say?) is anything more than rubbernecking. There's no point in that line of thinking.

 

[PureX]

Originally posted by Sozo

You sure wouldn't want anyone to get caught up accepting statements like...

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me."

Right?

What if the "way" is love, and the "truth" is that we don't have the ability to "know God" or God's will, and the "life" we find "through Christ" is a life of peace and love and joy and healing that comes from accepting that we are ignorant human beings who can't know and control God through our religions?

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by granite1010

There's no point in that line of thinking.

Unless you can pinpoint a time in your life when it was your "line of thinking", then you never knew Him.

But, you can know Him now!

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by Sozo

Unless you can pinpoint a time in your life when it was your "line of thinking", then you never knew Him.

But, you can know Him now!

So I never knew him. And frankly, no one really can know. It's not enough to cast out demons, do miracles, profess his name, believe completely...what kind of assurance is that?

 

[PureX]

Originally posted by granite1010 Some people may have better lives by believing in God. But what I see from so many Christians is some kind of weird, self-inflicted sado-masochistic misery. Believing in Jesus certainly doesn't improve the lives of many Christians I know. Unless being a Christian makes you a hypocrite, thief, manipulator, or con man.

Well in truth, I suppose a lot of us would be hypocrites, thieves, manipulators, or con man regardless of our religions. *smile*

But I wasn't really talking about religion, I was just talking about choosing to trust in a God that is expressed in our lives as love, not because we know this to be true, but simply because as a belief it produces positive results in our lives. All those miserable Christians that you are referring to should give up their religions, I think, if their religions are making them miserable and especially if their religions are making them make everyone around them miserable, too. But they can't do that because they have foolishly come to believe that they are "right" and that their religions are "truth".

But no religion is "right". How could it be? No religion possesses the absolute truth, and even if it did, we still would have no way of knowing this! It's not God and Christ that have caused these folks to be so miserable ... it's their false idolization of their own religion.

 

[Granite]

I think it's less a matter of finding "truth" as opposed to escaping hell. That's the bedrock of Christianity: not the Bible, not Jesus, but hell. Eternal torture is what this religion is based on.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by granite1010

So I never knew him. And frankly, no one really can know. It's not enough to cast out demons, do miracles, profess his name, believe completely...what kind of assurance is that?

Is that what is going on with you? Has your life been void of assurance? I am in agreement with PureX concerning the hope that you are in fact just losing your religion, because it clearly opens the door for you to have assurance.

btw... I seriously doubt that most of those who engage in the fascination of "miracles" know Him either. There is only one miracle that matters to you.

 

[Zakath]

granite1010,

All I need to say is, "Welcome to reality." :thumb:

I think you're making an informed decision to reject an overly-controlling religious environment in favor of being a self-directed adult.

In addition, it's a big, wide universe out here, filled with wondrous diversity and enough puzzles and questions to keep us humans occupied for numerous lifetimes.

Good luck on your journey. If I can offer any assistance, PM me or email me.

Zakath

 

[wickwoman]

Re: Re: No Longer A Christian

Re: Re: No Longer A Christian

Originally posted by Sozo

Oh gee... what a surprise

You see folks, the difference between a Christian, and someone who just says he is, is confirmed by their "departing from the faith" because of their disappointment with what they see and experience, rather than who God is and what He says is true.

"Let God be found true, though every man be found a liar"

I see Sozo's towing the "party line."

You will notice, Granite, that Christians will deny you ever were a Christian. It's difficult for them to admit that any person would turn away from christianity having had an authentic Christian experience.

I hope this doesn't mean you will turn away from God, or from seeking spiritual truth. You should think of this as more of a beginning than an end.

 

[Sozo]

I see that the leeches have emerged from the primordial swamp to devour your flesh.

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by Sozo

Is that what is going on with you? Has your life been void of assurance? I am in agreement with PureX concerning the hope that you are in fact just losing your religion, because it clearly opens the door for you to have assurance.

btw... I seriously doubt that most of those who engage in the fascination of "miracles" know Him either. There is only one miracle that matters to you.

I had assurance. Evidently that's not enough. Because it can come and go.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Sozo

I see that the leeches have emerged from the primordial swamp to devour your flesh.

Heark, do the dry bones speak? :ha:

 

[Zakath]

Re: Re: Re: No Longer A Christian

Re: Re: Re: No Longer A Christian

Originally posted by wickwoman

I see Sozo's towing the "party line."

(Psst! That's "toeing", as in standing with your toe on a line...)

You will notice, Granite, that Christians will deny you ever were a Christian. It's difficult for them to admit that any person would turn away from christianity having had an authentic Christian experience.

Only the ones who believe in the silly "eternal security" doctrine, like Sozo.

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by Zakath

granite1010,

All I need to say is, "Welcome to reality." :thumb:

I think you're making an informed decision to reject an overly-controlling religious environment in favor of being a self-directed adult.

In addition, it's a big, wide universe out here, filled with wondrous diversity and enough puzzles and questions to keep us humans occupied for numerous lifetimes.

Good luck on your journey. If I can offer any assistance, PM me or email me.

Zakath

Hey Zakath. Thanks.

In a way Christianity kind of takes the mystery out of things, doesn't it. When you have everything explained, where's the curiosity or the inquisition left in life?

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by granite1010

I had assurance. Evidently that's not enough. Because it can come and go.

It can? That's news to me.

Has there been a time in your life, after you knew that 2+2=4, that you doubted it?