No Longer A Christian

[cattyfan]

Jesus speaks of hell:

Matthew 10:28, 23:15, 23:33
Luke 12:5, 16:23


I have left out the verses regarding cutting off hands that sin, as I don't wish to get into the literal vs. metaphor discussion.

 

[cattyfan]

I didn't remember the song

I, unfortunately, remember the whole thing...

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by wickwoman

No, really Granite, give me some scriptures where Jesus talked about Hell. I'm not saying it's not in the Bible. I just want to see them.

Revelations doesn't count.

Catty beat me to it. It's in there, all right.

 

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Zakath

Perhaps a veiled reference to your attitude about the established Church? :think:

No, a rather blatent proof eyewitness accounts are more credible than you would have me believe

Actually modern copies of ancient texts kept the memory.

...and thank you for agreeing with me in under 10 posts

 

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Zakath

Maybe, maybe not...


:readthis: Some teachings of Jesus...

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law-- a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' - Mt. 10:35-35

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple." - Lk 14:26


And for all our biblical literalists, this part of John's vision in Revelation (allegedly from Jesus)...

I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe." The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia." - Rev. 14:14-19



"He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." Rev. 14:10


I'm not sure what's "better" about Jesus' way, Willi. :think:

some of this has been covered in my "why own a gun" thread
some in my "path to peace" thread

im most happy to talk about what i see as a misunderstanding of the Word

 

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by granite1010

Are you going to acknowledge the God of the OT was fundamentally bloodthirsty and condoned barbarism and savagery committed by the Hebrews?

i will NOT apologise for what has happened.
what did, did.
i am not smarter then God.

take from the OT what you like, be happy you were not Gods enemy then.


What about the Word Jesus teaches says this is to continue?
does Jesus say i am to stone you to death if you become atheist?

am i to correct an atheist, here on earth today, with a sword, or the Word of Jesus?

if you learn the Word, you have peace within yourself, you do NOT seek the blood of your enemy

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by brother Willi

i will NOT apologise for what has happened.
what did, did.
i am not smarter then God.

take from the OT what you like, be happy you were not Gods enemy then.


What about the Word Jesus teaches says this is to continue?
does Jesus say i am to stone you to death if you become atheist?

am i to correct an atheist, here on earth today, with a sword, or the Word of Jesus?

if you learn the Word, you have peace within yourself, you do NOT seek the blood of your enemy

...or what "might" have happened. Considering that evidence for most of the Old Testament simply doesn't exist.

I'm not asking for an apology; I'm asking you to acknowledge something.

When everything in your gut tells you something's reprehensible, contrary to God's supposed nature, and you just shrug it off, it says more about Christians than former ones.

I'm more happy I'm not a former Christian, say, a hundred years ago (when it still resulted in losing your reputation in some areas, maybe your job), four hundred years ago (when I could have been pressed to death; go Puritans) or five hundred years ago (when I would have been tortured and subsequently burned to death in Christ's name).

Also, I'm not an atheist. Either way you can't "correct" somebody back into the faith. You can't "reason" them back into the fold. Using reason is contrary to Christianity. "Correction" within the church is just a form of control.

 

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by granite1010

Catty beat me to it. It's in there, all right.

O.K. well at least I reserved a convenient "out" for myself, that is, he didn't necessarily say everything the Bible attributes to him. Sorry, I'm a big fan of Jesus. Say anything you want about Jehovah, but Jesus is my man.

 

[cattyfan]

O.K. well at least I reserved a convenient "out" for myself, that is, he didn't necessarily say everything the Bible attributes to him. Sorry, I'm a big fan of Jesus. Say anything you want about Jehovah, but Jesus is my man.

how have you decided which of the quotes are Christ's and which ones are not?

 

[STONE]

Re: Re: Re: No Longer A Christian

Re: Re: Re: No Longer A Christian

Originally posted by wickwoman

You will notice, Granite, that Christians will deny you ever were a Christian. It's difficult for them to admit that any person would turn away from christianity having had an authentic Christian experience.

"Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." (Mt 13: 18-23)

 

[Granite]

Here's where I'm at.

1) someone can have a "genuine"--to them--experience, live a Christian life, talk the walk...and still wind up in hell (remember, miracles, exorcisms, and carrying Christ's name does not promise he'll "know" you when you die)

2) which means it can happen to anyone, so there's no guarantee for any Christian who stays in the church or not

3) so, it's essentially a crap shoot, from a Christian's perspective

4) or you can leave the church, meaning your experience was somehow not "genuine," despite everything you believed at the time

5) which leads to my second point

 

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by cattyfan

how have you decided which of the quotes are Christ's and which ones are not?

One can logically assume that the Biblical references which contain love and understanding can be attributed to God and his/her followers while those which contain the common human sentiments and behaviors such as judgment, hatred, etc., are the ramblings of men and nothing else.

 

[cattyfan]

One can logically assume that the Biblical references which contain love and understanding can be attributed to God and his/her followers while those which contain the common human sentiments and behaviors such as judgment, hatred, etc., are the ramblings of men and nothing else.

rich, rotted, horse manure. Picking and choosing what you want to believe without any kind of rhyme, reason, or proof except you not liking some of what's said is one of the funniest "theologies" I've ever encountered.

here would be an example: the adultress. Jesus didn't stone her, but he did judge her behavior to be wrong, "Go and sin no more." So is this one of Jesus's quotes in your book, or not?

 

[PureX]

Originally posted by cattyfan ....how have you decided which of the quotes are Christ's and which ones are not?

The ones that promote love and forgiveness and healing are the ones that come from God. The ones that promote condemnation and division and fear are the ones that came from religious zealots who "edited" the story to make Jesus represent their own sick views of God and man.

Simple.

 

[BChristianK]

Originally posted by wickwoman

One can logically assume that the Biblical references which contain love and understanding can be attributed to God and his/her followers while those which contain the common human sentiments and behaviors such as judgment, hatred, etc., are the ramblings of men and nothing else.

Wickwoman,

Please rescue my hope that you subscribe to some rational thought by telling us this was a joke...

 

[cattyfan]

The ones that promote love and forgiveness and healing are the ones that come from God. The ones that promote condemnation and division and fear are the ones that came from religious zealots who "edited" the story to make Jesus represent their own sick views of God and man.

Simple.

You are one who is always seeking proof. where is yours?

Also, what about the example I gave.

 

[Goose]

Re: No Longer A Christian

Originally posted by granite1010

Well, the name of the thread pretty much sums it up.

I no longer consider myself a Christian, a member of the Christian faith, believer in Christ or the Bible.

I came to TOL last year considering myself a born again member of the body of Christ. And it's been a crazy year. Not easy.

Only a year? Wow. Most people are stuck with it for their entire lives. Congrats! Where will you go from here? :think:

 

[wickwoman]

Dear Cattyfan:

I like you, so I'll ignore the insulting tone you've adopted. And, the story of the woman caught in adultery is an excellent example of the true Jesus. I have no problem with the word "sin." It's what keeps us separated from God. Now, I don't believe so much that Jesus had a problem with how many men she slept with or whose husbands they were, but I think this was more of a question of the woman's search for God and fulfillment in the wrong places.

Dear Purex:

Exactly!

Dear BChristianK:

This should not surprise you. And, it's no different than what anyone does, it's only difficult for you to see it in print. Chew on it for a while and you will realize that EVERYONE does this. You're getting testy again. I think you need another sabbatical. Is it worth the grief? God knows, I ask myself that same question.

 

[wickwoman]

Dear Granite:

I just want to talk to you again because I have all these "warm fuzzy" feelings about your epiphany. Many would deny it is an epiphany but it is. And, soon you will see. I hope you are not discouraged or disappointed. If you are, then you were looking in the wrong places. God is who we look to, not man. He/she will not disappoint you.

A couple of Zen sayings are very meaningful in reference to your search:

"It is better to let go of illusions than to cling to the truth."

and

"Do not seek the truth. Merely cease to cherish opinions."

This is what you've done, you've let go of illusions and opinions. Now, the world is your oyster. You will find what you are looking for. I give you Wickwoman's personal guarantee.

 

[BChristianK]

Originally posted by PureX

The ones that promote love and forgiveness and healing are the ones that come from God. The ones that promote condemnation and division and fear are the ones that came from religious zealots who "edited" the story to make Jesus represent their own sick views of God and man.

Simple.

Cmon! Purex, ya can't just say all the stuff you like is legit and everything else is an addition! You of all people should now that this is just dumb. This is a textual critical method for morons. You can't read any book this way and sound like a rational human being.
:doh:

Snap out if it, you are both too intelligent to really believe this.

I'll tell you what, from now on, I'll conclude that the parts of your and wickwoman's posts that I like are from you, and the parts I don't agree with were written by secret agents who broke into your homes and used your computers to add stuff.

I'll start with this crazy method of biblical interpretation the secret agent at wickwoman's computer proposed and the secret agent that broke into your house to agree with her.

BACK OFF! Secret Agents! I know you're in there!

:darwinsm:

Grace and Peace