ECT Yet Future?

[turbosixx]

Why can you not deal what is actually written at Jeremiah 31:31-34? It seems to me that all you are trying to do is to prove that what is said in that passage is not correct.

Could you tell me what I'm missing? On Pentecost, the "physical" descendants of Israel had their sins forgiven. It had to be under the new covenant because the old could not forgive sin. If it wasn't the new then what was it?

 

[Right Divider]

Two problems here.

First, your adding the word "physical".

Second, those on Pentecost knew the Lord because they were baptized in his name and they had their sins forgiven. That happened in the past just like Jeremiah said it would.

Firstly, the scripture describes the physical descendants. So it is clearly the physical.

Jer 31:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)​

(31:31) ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (31:32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (31:33) But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (31:34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. ​

Honestly, how much more clear can this possibly be? I cannot be more clear that that!

Secondly, you pretend that all of Israel was forgiven. But scripture does not say that.

Paul speaks clearly about the restoration of Israel in Romans 11:15, right before he confirms that they will all be saved. This clearly shows that it is yet future.

 

[Right Divider]

Oh, so there are conditions? Oh I see. And so not ALL Israel gets saved because those didn't. So it's really shriveling. In fact, it is sounding very much like it those who believe the Gospel who are saved. Wow, what a concept. Because then it seems like it might be, gosh is it really? could it be true that the same thing... man I can't believe I'm saying this! The same thing that saves Jews saves other christians! Crikey, I can't believe this is happening. How can this be?

OH, Jews get justification from their sins and they get real estate! That's it. Yeah, that's just so clear. Repent of your sins and honor God with your life, and you will get justification from sins, but God will also restart Judaism and animal sacrifices and all the old covenant and shellfish rules, and you (Jews) get to live there, while the rest of believers are on the NHNE. Sounds like a train wreck but give it try!

:kookoo:
Seriously, find yourself a good mental hospital and check yourself in.

 

[Tambora]

Firstly, the scripture describes the physical descendants. So it is clearly the physical.

Jer 31:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)​

(31:31) ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (31:32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (31:33) But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (31:34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. ​

.

Yeppers.

 

[turbosixx]

Firstly, the scripture describes the physical descendants. So it is clearly the physical.
Honestly, how much more clear can this possibly be? I cannot be more clear that that!

I agree, but Peter addressed the physical descendants on Pentecost.
Acts 2:14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem,
2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—

These descendants were saved, v47. In your understanding, under what covenant were they saved?

Thanks for your input.

 

[Right Divider]

I will.

When an OT prophecy is stated in the NT, the quote is used to confirm what is taking place. For instance, in Acts 2 Peter says "16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:" then quotes Joel.

I'm so glad that used this as your "example" of already fulfilled prophecy. Since NOT ALL of Joel has yet been fulfilled.

Joel 2:28-32 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:28) ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: (2:29) And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. (2:30) And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. (2:31) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. (2:32) And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. ​

The deliverance of Israel is yet future along with their new covenant.

 

[Right Divider]

I agree, but Peter addressed the physical descendants on Pentecost.
Acts 2:14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem,
2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—

These descendants were saved, v47. In your understanding, under what covenant were they saved?

Thanks for your input.

There are different kinds of salvation in scripture.

Note that "Men of Israel" and "Man of Judea" does NOT mean there they all got saved in any sense.

 

[turbosixx]

Secondly, you pretend that all of Israel was forgiven. But scripture does not say that.

I never meant to imply that. I never will believe all physical descendants will be saved.

Paul speaks clearly about the restoration of Israel in Romans 11:15, right before he confirms that they will all be saved. This clearly shows that it is yet future.

I know we've covered this before, but I forgot what you said about this, sorry. Here is the way I understand it. Paul cleared up for us before chapter 11 who are the true descendants and its not those of the flesh (physical) but those of promise.
Rom. 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

So those who are in Christ are children of promise, Gal. 4:28. Those in Christ do not need to be taught God because you have to know God in order to become a Christian, Jer. 31:34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
In Christ our sins are remembered no more.

Jer. 31:33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
The old covenant was written on stone but the new is within us.
2 Cor. 3:3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

What am I missing?

 

[turbosixx]

There are different kinds of salvation in scripture.

What do you understand this salvation to be?

 

[turbosixx]

I'm so glad that used this as your "example" of already fulfilled prophecy. Since NOT ALL of Joel has yet been fulfilled.

Joel 2:28-32 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:28) ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: (2:29) And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. (2:30) And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. (2:31) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. (2:32) And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. ​

The deliverance of Israel is yet future along with their new covenant.

When Peter says this is what was spoken of by Joel, he quotes what you have in yellow.

If anyone today calls on Jesus, will they be delivered?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Could you tell me what I'm missing? On Pentecost, the "physical" descendants of Israel had their sins forgiven. It had to be under the new covenant because the old could not forgive sin. If it wasn't the new then what was it?

I thought you were going to deal what Jeremiah 31:31-34 actually says about the New Covenant promised to Israel. You still have not even addressed my comments about that prophecy.

 

[turbosixx]

I thought you were going to deal what Jeremiah 31:31-34 actually says about the New Covenant promised to Israel. You still have not even addressed my comments about that prophecy.

You haven't answered my question as to how the men of Judea and Israel had their sins forgiven and were saved on Pentecost. Old covenant or new covenant.

Acts 2:14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem,
2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You haven't answered my question as to how the men of Judea and Israel had their sins forgiven and were saved on Pentecost. Old covenant or new covenant.

By the New Testament, the Last Will and Testament of the Lord Jesus. It is in that Testament whereby we learn the "good news" (gospel) Of Christ, how that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus.

Now please address my remarks about what is revealed at Jeremiah 31:31-34.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Oh, so there are conditions? Oh I see. And so not ALL Israel gets saved because those didn't. So it's really shriveling. In fact, it is sounding very much like it those who believe the Gospel who are saved. Wow, what a concept. Because then it seems like it might be, gosh is it really? could it be true that the same thing... man I can't believe I'm saying this! The same thing that saves Jews saves other christians! Crikey, I can't believe this is happening. How can this be?

OH, Jews get justification from their sins and they get real estate! That's it. Yeah, that's just so clear. Repent of your sins and honor God with your life, and you will get justification from sins, but God will also restart Judaism and animal sacrifices and all the old covenant and shellfish rules, and you (Jews) get to live there, while the rest of believers are on the NHNE. Sounds like a train wreck but give it try!

:dizzy:

 

[Right Divider]

I never meant to imply that. I never will believe all physical descendants will be saved.

Paul says that all of Israel will be saved. This is why you need to change the definition of "Israel", because you refuse to believe this truth.

Once again, there are different kinds of salvation in the Bible. It does NOT always refer to eternal life.

I know we've covered this before, but I forgot what you said about this, sorry. Here is the way I understand it. Paul cleared up for us before chapter 11 who are the true descendants and its not those of the flesh (physical) but those of promise.
Rom. 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

What promise to you think that this refers to?

Paul's point is that they don't receive the promise ONLY because they are descendants. They must be BELIEVING decedents.

So those who are in Christ are children of promise, Gal. 4:28. Those in Christ do not need to be taught God because you have to know God in order to become a Christian, Jer. 31:34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
In Christ our sins are remembered no more.

Jer. 31:33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
The old covenant was written on stone but the new is within us.
2 Cor. 3:3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

What am I missing?

You're missing the dispensational differences that God has places in His word.

You try mash everything into "Israel" when it does not belong that way.

The church which is His body does not have a promise of a kingdom in the land, as does Israel. We are already seated in heavenly places.

 

[Right Divider]

What do you understand this salvation to be?

Israel's deliverance from their sins and their enemies.

Luke 1:67-79 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:67) And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, (1:68) Blessed [be] the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, (1:69) And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; (1:70) As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: (1:71) That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; (1:72) To perform the mercy [promised] to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; (1:73) The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, (1:74) That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, (1:75) In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. (1:76) And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; (1:77) To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, (1:78) Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, (1:79) To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
​

This is all part of what God had been telling them for centuries.

Modern churchianity has tried to force salvation to always mean eternal life. It does not.

 

[Right Divider]

When Peter says this is what was spoken of by Joel, he quotes what you have in yellow.

So you think that "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood" has already happened?

No, it has not.

If anyone today calls on Jesus, will they be delivered?

Yes, but that is not what Joel is talking about.

The deliverance that Joel is talking about is related to the great tribulation, which has not yet happened.

The time of Jacob's trouble.... yet future.

 

[turbosixx]

By the New Testament, the Last Will and Testament of the Lord Jesus. It is in that Testament whereby we learn the "good news" (gospel) Of Christ, how that believers are justified freely by grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus.

Now please address my remarks about what is revealed at Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Thanks for your answer.

Paul tells us in Romans 11 who are the true descendants and its not those of the flesh (physical) but those of promise.
Rom. 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
So those who are in Christ are children of promise and the descendants, Gal. 4:28.

Those in Christ do not need to be taught God because you have to know God in order to become a Christian, Jer. 31:34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
In Christ our sins are remembered no more.

Jer. 31:33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
The old covenant was written on stone but the new is within us.
2 Cor. 3:3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

If that doesn't cover it, could you please give me a little more direction in what specifically you're referring to.

 

[turbosixx]

There is a lot here and I would love to cover it all. Hopefully there will be time.

Paul says that all of Israel will be saved. This is why you need to change the definition of "Israel", because you refuse to believe this truth.

It's not my definition, I got it from Paul.

Once again, there are different kinds of salvation in the Bible. It does NOT always refer to eternal life.

So it doesn't mean eternal life here?

What promise to you think that this refers to?

Gal. 3:16-18

Paul's point is that they don't receive the promise ONLY because they are descendants. They must be BELIEVING decedents.

If they are believing, then they are no longer a Jew.
Gal. 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

You're missing the dispensational differences that God has places in His word.

You try mash everything into "Israel" when it does not belong that way.

The church which is His body does not have a promise of a kingdom in the land, as does Israel. We are already seated in heavenly places.

The way I understand it, physical Israel was just a shadow of the true Israel just as the temple, high priest and so forth. Paul says were have been circumcised and are Abrahams descendants. How can you get more Jewish than that?

 

[turbosixx]

Israel's deliverance from their sins and their enemies.

Luke 1:67-79 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:67) And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, (1:68) Blessed [be] the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, (1:69) And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; (1:70) As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: (1:71) That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; (1:72) To perform the mercy [promised] to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; (1:73) The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, (1:74) That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, (1:75) In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. (1:76) And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; (1:77) To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, (1:78) Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, (1:79) To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
​

This is all part of what God had been telling them for centuries.

Modern churchianity has tried to force salvation to always mean eternal life. It does not.

Ok, I think I might be getting close to what you mean by other salvation.

I see this passage as spiritual and not physical. Jesus has been raised up and given all authority in heaven and on earth. V77, give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins. Done. If we view the others as spiritual, it makes sense.