ECT Would Abraham's belief have been "faith" if he hadn't obeyed and taken action?

[SimpleMan77]

Would Abraham's belief have been "faith" if he hadn't obeyed and taken action?

We all know that "Abraham believed God, and his faith was counted to him for righteousness". However, the word of God that Abraham believed also commanded him to leave the life he had always known and follow the leading of God.
If Abraham would have believed the command/promise of God, but would not have obeyed by leaving his homeland, would he have had "faith"??
Simple question, and should be a simple answer. Please respond "yes" or "no", then feel free to validate your clear response with scripture or logic.


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[Tambora]

What could Abe DO to ensure that GOD's promise of his barren wife Sarah would conceive a child?

 

[steko]

What could Abe DO to ensure that GOD's promise of his barren wife Sarah would conceive a child?

He had to drive off them buzzards!

Gen 15:11

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

He had to drive off them buzzards!

Gen 15:11

Much more productive than lighting off camels.

 

[SimpleMan77]

What could Abe DO to ensure that GOD's promise of his barren wife Sarah would conceive a child?

Interesting thought that some people overlook. God appears to Abraham, and essentially says "in 9 months the promise is going to come to pass".
Abraham had to go to bed with Sarah that night, and act upon God's promise. If he would have not taken that action we'd have no nation of Israel or Jewish Messiah.


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[Danoh]

What could Abe DO to ensure that GOD's promise of his barren wife Sarah would conceive a child?

Apparantly, Paul's relating of two different of Abraham's various encounters with God, and in reverse order, in Galatians 3, have thrown Simpleman off.

A thing making sense is ever greatly dependent on where one is, or is not, looking at it from (information taken or not, into consideration).

Information which in turn is impacted by the level of one's skill at objectively examining its' various components.

In this, there is never any room for "well maybe this, perhaps that, what if this other..."

The answer, as in your great questions about "blinding" on that post of yours elsewhere; is ever the same answer:

What saith The Scripture...when studied out in light of...The Scripture.

You're right; where is the work in the following?

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

 

[steko]

Interesting thought that some people overlook. God appears to Abraham, and essentially says "in 9 months the promise is going to come to pass".
Abraham had to go to bed with Sarah that night, and act upon God's promise. If he would have not taken that action we'd have no nation of Israel or Jewish Messiah.


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But... at what point was Abram justified?
When did GOD impute righteousness to him?

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[Danoh]

Interesting thought that some people overlook. God appears to Abraham, and essentially says "in 9 months the promise is going to come to pass".
Abraham had to go to bed with Sarah that night, and act upon God's promise. If he would have not taken that action we'd have no nation of Israel or Jewish Messiah.


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You might want to CAREFULLY reread Genesis 12 thru 15.

 

[Danoh]

But... at what point was Abram justified?
When did GOD impute righteousness to him?

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

At what point?

On the same principle as...

Romans 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. 15:2 And Abram said, LORD God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? 15:3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

 

[Tambora]

Interesting thought that some people overlook. God appears to Abraham, and essentially says "in 9 months the promise is going to come to pass".
Abraham had to go to bed with Sarah that night, and act upon God's promise. If he would have not taken that action we'd have no nation of Israel or Jewish Messiah.


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Abe could have slept with his barren wife every single day, and it would not have reversed her bareness.
Nothing Abe did made his wife's barren womb become fruitful.


We could even jump ahead to Abe's descendant, Jacob.
What did Jacob DO to ensure GOD would elect him over his twin brother Esau?
Neither child had done anything at all when GOD elected Jacob over Esau.

 

[Tambora]

You might want to CAREFULLY reread Genesis 12 thru 15.

And notice that Abe was deep in sleep when the smoking furnace with a fiery torch passed through the pieces of the covenant.
It was GOD alone that passed through to seal the covenant. To make that fact very obvious, Abe was asleep and did nothing.
A very fitting manifestation of GOD's presence, as GOD lead Israel through the wilderness out of Egypt with a manifestation of His presence of pillars of smoke and fire.

 

[SimpleMan77]

Abe could have slept with his barren wife every single day, and it would not have reversed her bareness.
Nothing Abe did made his wife's barren womb become fruitful.


We could even jump ahead to Abe's descendant, Jacob.
What did Jacob DO to ensure GOD would elect him over his twin brother Esau?
Neither child had done anything at all when GOD elected Jacob over Esau.

True. But if he hadn't slept with her one more night, at the prodding of the promise, I can assure you she would have died childless.


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[Tambora]

IF IF IF

Why not deal with what actually happens?

It's like asking, "If a frog had wings ....."
It doesn't solve anything based in reality.

 

[SimpleMan77]

Apparantly, Paul's relating of two different of Abraham's various encounters with God, and in reverse order, in Galatians 3, have thrown Simpleman off.

A thing making sense is ever greatly dependent on where one is, or is not, looking at it from (information taken or not, into consideration).

Information which in turn is impacted by the level of one's skill at objectively examining its' various components.

In this, there is never any room for "well maybe this, perhaps that, what if this other..."

The answer, as in your great questions about "blinding" on that post of yours elsewhere; is ever the same answer:

What saith The Scripture...when studied out in light of...The Scripture.

You're right; where is the work in the following?

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

[MENTION=16688]Danoh[/MENTION] you're better than this (suggesting that I'm not "thrown off") when in fact you either didn't read my statement correctly or are totally misunderstanding.
- In Gen 18:1 God appears to Abraham
- in Gen 18:10 He says "in 9 months your wife will have a son
- In Gen 18:12 Sarah laughs at the thought that Abraham would be romantically attracted to her at their age
- Sometime immediately afterward (probably that night, according to the "time of life" statement) they sleep together, and the fulfillment of the promise is conceived in faith.
I understand that the could have slept together for another hundred years, and minus the promise and faith, there would have been no baby.
I also realize (and the fact anyone would argue with this blows me away) that without "action", faith would have been no faith.


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[SimpleMan77]

[MENTION=16688]Danoh[/MENTION] you're better than this (suggesting that I'm not "thrown off") when in fact you either didn't read my statement correctly or are totally misunderstanding.
- In Gen 18:1 God appears to Abraham
- in Gen 18:10 He says "in 9 months your wife will have a son
- In Gen 18:12 Sarah laughs at the thought that Abraham would be romantically attracted to her at their age
- Sometime immediately afterward (probably that night, according to the "time of life" statement) they sleep together, and the fulfillment of the promise is conceived in faith.
I understand that the could have slept together for another hundred years, and minus the promise and faith, there would have been no baby.
I also realize (and the fact anyone would argue with this blows me away) that without "action", faith would have been no faith.
No where in my statements did I conflate the promise in God calling Abraham with the one of the timeline given in Gen 18:10


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[SimpleMan77]

And notice that Abe was deep in sleep when the smoking furnace with a fiery torch passed through the pieces of the covenant.
It was GOD alone that passed through to seal the covenant. To make that fact very obvious, Abe was asleep and did nothing.
A very fitting manifestation of GOD's presence, as GOD lead Israel through the wilderness out of Egypt with a manifestation of His presence of pillars of smoke and fire.

No argument. Beautiful picture of grace and God establishing his covenant.
Doesn't change my original question, but I'll reword it based on your comment - if Abraham would have believed but chosen to not obey (by leaving his homeland), would God have ever shown him the smoke and fire? I understand Abe could have left without the call of God, and walked until his feet fell off, and never earned a promise. The inverse isn't true, though. Once the call and promise came, he could have said "I believe", but chosen to not obey. I don't care how much he said "I believe", his actions (or lack thereof) would have proven him a liar and unbeliever.


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[SimpleMan77]

IF IF IF

Why not deal with what actually happens?

It's like asking, "If a frog had wings ....."
It doesn't solve anything based in reality.

I did. Abraham believed and acted. That actually happened, and it is how he received the promise.
Without his actions of obedience, his "belief" would have been "belief in thought only", and God would have moved on to find someone else who would truly believe.


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[Danoh]

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Your OP was about him having left his former life, etc. as his faith via a work. It was not what you are now asserting it was about.

And in Gal. 3, Paul reverses the order of those two events.

All I am saying is that you obviously misread a thing or two as to all that.

 

[SimpleMan77]

But... at what point was Abram justified?
When did GOD impute righteousness to him?

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abraham was justified at the moment he believed the calling and promise of God. However, that justification would have been withdrawn had he decided the promise wasn't worth the pain, and chosen to not follow through with action.


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[SimpleMan77]

Your OP was about him having left his former life, etc. as his faith via a work. It was not what you are now asserting it was about.

And in Gal. 3, Paul reverses the order of those two events.

All I am saying is that you obviously misread a thing or two as to all that.

I stand corrected. My OP states that the promise Abraham believed, and which was counted to him for righteousness, was the word commanding him to leave his country.
They are two different events, but the premise of my argument still holds true, in both events.
1. Abraham received a promise and commandment while in his homeland. If he would have "believed" without obedience, it would have been faith in word only - not really faith.
2. Abraham received a re-issuance of the promise, where God expanded upon it, and He believed God. That was counted to him for righteousness. 9 months before Isaac was born, God let him know it was time, and Abe put action to his belief one more time. Minus that action, again, faith would not have been faith. Through faith He didn't consider his body to be dead, and put it to use.
Take away the acts of response, and Abraham doesn't become the father of Isaac, of the Messiah, or of the faithful.


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