Words matter...

[Right Divider]

An honest reader cannot read Paul's epistles and miss the way that he uses words that differ so greatly from the twelve, etc.

Take the word(s) "disciple*" [eg. disciple, disciples]

In the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John), the word(s) appear 226 times... in Paul's epistles: ZERO.

 

[Derf]

An honest reader cannot read Paul's epistles and miss the way that he uses words that differ so greatly from the twelve, etc.

Take the word(s) "disciple*" [eg. disciple, disciples]

In the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John), the word(s) appear 226 times... in Paul's epistles: ZERO.

I never saw that before. Funny that the authors of Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, 1,2,3 John, and Revelation ALSO never used the word disciple. They are soooooo different from the 12.

Now, what were you going to say about that difference?

Edit: I forgot Jude. He never used it either.

 

[Right Divider]

I never saw that before. Funny that the authors of Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, 1,2,3 John, and Revelation ALSO never used the word disciple. They are soooooo different from the 12.

Some of those books WERE written by the 12.

Now, what were you going to say about that difference?

Those other books all come post the Fall of Israel (that includes Paul's epistles).

The doctrine in Paul's epistles is different from that of all the other Hebrews authors. That is because Paul was given a different commission.

The books of the New Testament contain distinct doctrinal instructions depending on the author and the target audience. Examining Paul's epistles (Romans through Philemon) alongside the rest of the New Testament reveals clear differences in the gospel preached, the requirements for justification, and the status of Israel.​

​

The table below contrasts these core doctrinal areas.​

Doctrinal Category​	Matthew through John, Early Acts, and Hebrews through Revelation​	Paul's Epistles (Romans through Philemon)​
The Primary Message​	The Gospel of the Kingdom: The announcement that the prophetic kingdom promised to David is at hand (Matthew 4:23, Matthew 24:14).​	The Gospel of the Grace of God: The proclamation of salvation based entirely on the finished work of Christ on the cross (Acts 20:24, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).​
The Target Audience​	The Circumcision (Israel): Jesus limited his earthly ministry to Israel (Matthew 15:24), and the Apostles targeted the circumcision (Galatians 2:7-9).​	The Uncircumcision (Gentiles / All Men): Paul was sent directly to the Gentiles as the apostle of the Gentiles (Romans 11:13, Galatians 2:7-9).​
The Basis of Justification​	Faith and Works: Belief accompanied by physical actions, law-keeping, and enduring to the end (James 2:24, Matthew 24:13).​	Faith Alone without Works: Complete justification by grace through faith, entirely apart from the deeds of the law (Romans 4:5, Ephesians 2:8-9).​
Water Baptism​	Required for Remission: Necessary for the remission of sins and entering the kingdom program (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38).​	Not Part of the Commission: Paul explicitly states that Christ did not send him to baptize, but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17).​
The Believing Body​	The Nation of Israel: A kingdom of priests and a holy nation under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:8-10, 1 Peter 2:9).​	The Body of Christ: A new creation where the middle wall of partition is broken down, making Jew and Gentile equal (Ephesians 2:14-16, Colossians 3:11).​
The Divine Program​	Prophecy: Information spoken by the mouth of holy prophets since the world began (Acts 3:21).​	The Mystery: Information kept secret since the world began, revealed exclusively to and through Paul (Romans 16:25, Ephesians 3:1-9).​

Examples of Direct Doctrinal Contrast​

You can see these differences clearly when comparing specific verses on the same topic.​

On Justification:​

• The Circumcision Writers: James 2:24 states, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
• Paul: Romans 4:5 states, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

On the Scope of Ministry:​

• Jesus in the Gospels: Matthew 10:5-6 commands, "Go not into the way of the Gentiles... But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
• Paul: Romans 11:13 states, "For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office."

P.S. I understand that you are "anti-Pauline" and will oppose any and all distinctions between his ministry and the ministries of the others.

 

[Derf]

Some of those books WERE written by the 12.

Those other books all come post the Fall of Israel (that includes Paul's epistles).

The doctrine in Paul's epistles is different from that of all the other Hebrews authors. That is because Paul was given a different commission.

The books of the New Testament contain distinct doctrinal instructions depending on the author and the target audience. Examining Paul's epistles (Romans through Philemon) alongside the rest of the New Testament reveals clear differences in the gospel preached, the requirements for justification, and the status of Israel.​

​

The table below contrasts these core doctrinal areas.​

Doctrinal Category​	Matthew through John, Early Acts, and Hebrews through Revelation​	Paul's Epistles (Romans through Philemon)​
The Primary Message​	The Gospel of the Kingdom: The announcement that the prophetic kingdom promised to David is at hand (Matthew 4:23, Matthew 24:14).​	The Gospel of the Grace of God: The proclamation of salvation based entirely on the finished work of Christ on the cross (Acts 20:24, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).​
The Target Audience​	The Circumcision (Israel): Jesus limited his earthly ministry to Israel (Matthew 15:24), and the Apostles targeted the circumcision (Galatians 2:7-9).​	The Uncircumcision (Gentiles / All Men): Paul was sent directly to the Gentiles as the apostle of the Gentiles (Romans 11:13, Galatians 2:7-9).​
The Basis of Justification​	Faith and Works: Belief accompanied by physical actions, law-keeping, and enduring to the end (James 2:24, Matthew 24:13).​	Faith Alone without Works: Complete justification by grace through faith, entirely apart from the deeds of the law (Romans 4:5, Ephesians 2:8-9).​
Water Baptism​	Required for Remission: Necessary for the remission of sins and entering the kingdom program (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38).​	Not Part of the Commission: Paul explicitly states that Christ did not send him to baptize, but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17).​
The Believing Body​	The Nation of Israel: A kingdom of priests and a holy nation under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:8-10, 1 Peter 2:9).​	The Body of Christ: A new creation where the middle wall of partition is broken down, making Jew and Gentile equal (Ephesians 2:14-16, Colossians 3:11).​
The Divine Program​	Prophecy: Information spoken by the mouth of holy prophets since the world began (Acts 3:21).​	The Mystery: Information kept secret since the world began, revealed exclusively to and through Paul (Romans 16:25, Ephesians 3:1-9).​

Examples of Direct Doctrinal Contrast​

You can see these differences clearly when comparing specific verses on the same topic.​

On Justification:​

• The Circumcision Writers: James 2:24 states, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
• Paul: Romans 4:5 states, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

On the Scope of Ministry:​

• Jesus in the Gospels: Matthew 10:5-6 commands, "Go not into the way of the Gentiles... But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
• Paul: Romans 11:13 states, "For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office."

None of which addresses the word "disciple(s)", so I still don't get your point.

But here is one place where "disciple" is used in relation to Paul and his ministry, curiously where he warns of those who preach false things to the church:
Acts 20:30 KJV — Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

P.S. I understand that you are "anti-Pauline" and will oppose any and all distinctions between his ministry and the ministries of the others.

I'm not at all anti-pauline. I just don't see how he would be preaching another gosprl from, say, Peter, say that all others preaching other gospels should be anathema, then rebuke those who distinguish between himself and Peter, saying "I am Pauline," or I am "Petrine." If it was ok for Peter to preach another gospel (which was not even good news!) why make a fuss about it?

 

[Right Divider]

None of which addresses the word "disciple(s)", so I still don't get your point.

Of course it does... the word is used primarily and predominantly during Christ's earthly ministry to Israel.

But here is one place where "disciple" is used in relation to Paul and his ministry, curiously where he warns of those who preach false things to the church:
Acts 20:30 KJV — Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Completely irrelevant.

I'm not at all anti-pauline.

Of course you are. You completely deny the total uniqueness of Paul's ministry.

Paul spends a great deal of time in his epistles justifying the fact that God gave him a unique and different ministry.

I just don't see how he would be preaching another gosprl from, say, Peter, say that all others preaching other gospels should be anathema,

That is because you constantly ignore the CONTEXT of scripture.

The passage that you are talking about has NOTHING to do with a single gospel.

This has been explained to you before (many times), but you will not listen to facts: https://theologyonline.com/threads/another-gospel-in-galatians-1.52439/

then rebuke those who distinguish between himself and Peter, saying "I am Pauline," or I am "Petrine."

He also rebuked those that said "I [am] of Christ". I'll bet that you will never understand that either.

1Cor 1:12 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:12) Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.​

If it was ok for Peter to preach another gospel (which was not even good news!) why make a fuss about it?

No clue what you're talking about.

Every gospel from God is good news.

 

[Right Divider]

Paul repeatedly emphasizes that his commission did not originate with human authority or the other apostles. He states that the ascended Christ gave him a specific message directly, separate from the ministry of the twelve apostles in Jerusalem.
In Galatians 1:11-12, Paul writes:

"But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

He explicitly defines his distinct target audience and office in Romans 11:13:

"For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:"

In Ephesians 3:1-3, he links this role to a specific administrative responsibility given to him for the nations:

"For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery;"

Furthermore, Paul positions himself as the foundational architect for the current assembly of believers. In 1 Corinthians 3:10, he writes:

"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon."

He also presents his conversion and ministry as the initial prototype for believers today, rather than a continuation of the prophetic program. In 1 Timothy 1:16, he declares:

"Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."

These passages demonstrate that Paul viewed his ministry as a distinct stewardship committed directly to him by Jesus Christ, requiring separate recognition from the ministry baseline established in early Acts.

 

[Derf]

Of course it does... the word is used primarily and predominantly during Christ's earthly ministry to Israel.

Not if you read the book of Acts--which shows it was used during Paul's ministry and referre to those to whom Paul preached. I know you will ignore what I'm saying here, but you've made a claim that is false--that the term somehow only applied to those involved in Christ's earthly ministry to Israel.

Completely irrelevant.

The references uses the word you say wasn't used by Paul, yet here it is used by Paul, referring to Christians who might be led astray. You have a weird sense of relevancy.

Of course you are. You completely deny the total uniqueness of Paul's ministry.

I don't deny Paul's ministry was new, but I do deny that he was the only apostle to partake in that ministry. Peter, for example, was ministering in some way to the same people Paul was.

Paul spends a great deal of time in his epistles justifying the fact that God gave him a unique and different ministry.

But not a unique and different gospel!

That is because you constantly ignore the CONTEXT of scripture.

That's pretty rich.

The passage that you are talking about has NOTHING to do with a single gospel.

Eh? Are you saying they all were preaching the same gospel???? That Peter, Apollos, Paul and Christ all preached the same gospel? Wow! I guess we're getting somewhere!

Or are you saying they were all preaching different gospels?

This has been explained to you before (many times), but you will not listen to facts: https://theologyonline.com/threads/another-gospel-in-galatians-1.52439/

Your reference is hardly helpful, since it merely asserts the same thing--that the Galatians are receiving a different gospel than some other people. But you don't explain why Peter was preaching to the Gentiles in Corinth such that they claimed him as the source,

He also rebuked those that said "I [am] of Christ". I'll bet that you will never understand that either.

Irrelevant, except that all of those four that were named were preaching something that went together with the others, and Paul tells us what it is:
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? ... [1Co 1:13 KJV]
For Christ sent me ... to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. [1Co 1:17 KJV]

Of course Christ is not divided. And of course Paul was not crucified for them. The uniting thread, the message that relates all four of the participants together, is the gospel that Christ died for them. And the other thems, however many groups and however many teachers, the salvation is by faith in the death and resurrection of Christ. Four men, all one gospel in 1Cor 1.

No clue what you're talking about.

Why bother about telling the Galatians not to follow after another gospel if the other gospel was ok to follow? If Peter's gospel was a different gospel, but still a gospel, then it should be ok for them to follow that gospel--it's good news, right? Some in Corinth were hearing from Peter (funny that Peter would be preaching to the same people Paul was preaching to), and claiming to be "of Peter", meaning they felt that the gospel they received from Peter was of better quality than Paul's.

Every gospel from God is good news.

Right, so Paul was saying they weren't good news, those gospels that weren't gospels. Those gospels that said there was another way to be saved. The one the Galatians were dealing with was that they could be saved by keeping the law. If every gospel from God is good news, and Paul was telling the Galatians to stay away from this other gospel, then it wasn't good news and it wasn't therefore a gospel from God. Thanks for putting the exclamation point on my post.
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: [Gal 1:6 KJV]
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. [Gal 1:7 KJV]
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. [Gal 1:8 KJV]
This "other" gospel was saying that they could be saved only by keeping the law. Peter, according to you guys, was saying that people could only be saved by keeping the law. Paul says that Peter, if indeed that's what he says, should be accursed. That's not how a gospel preacher should be treated, if he truly brings good news.

 

[Right Divider]

Not if you read the book of Acts--which shows it was used during Paul's ministry and referre to those to whom Paul preached. I know you will ignore what I'm saying here, but you've made a claim that is false--that the term somehow only applied to those involved in Christ's earthly ministry to Israel.

Apparently, English is perhaps your second or third language. I did NOT say that the term ONLY applied.... I said that it PRIMARILY and PREDOMINANTLY applied.

Stop lying and start READING what people say.

I don't deny Paul's ministry was new, but I do deny that he was the only apostle to partake in that ministry. Peter, for example, was ministering in some way to the same people Paul was.

Nonsense.

Good bye.