Word-Faith Movement: heretical? - Battle Royale V - Paul DeYonghe vs. famousGandalf7

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Aimiel

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Fluff and Sacrilege

Fluff and Sacrilege

I find most of what you said could be compared to the current trend on +OL to display cartoons instead of theology-type comment. There is revelry where there should be consecration and fluff imposing itself as content. The Lord is not glorified by these things.

I will respond to the one thing which I feel is sacreligeous in your remarks...
The confession of healing over one’s body, claiming health by divine right, is part-and-parcel of the Movement—I know of no Word-Faith teacher who doesn’t teach this.
OK, now we're getting real. This is the faith stuff. Does the 'Word of Faith Movement,' as you are so fond of calling this group of preachers you have chosen to single out, teach heresy in regards to health and healing. Well, do you believe that God, in the Bible, called Himself Jehovah Rophe, meaning, "I Am the God that healeth thee?" (Exodus 15:26) I do. By the way, I don't believe that God operates on coincedence, and I believe that the word Rophe is placed in the middle of the word 'prophet' for a very profound reason. It is to let us know what the office of the prophet is designed for: HEALING.

My Bible also teaches me that I am to choose whom I serve. (Joshua 24:15) I am to keep in mind that I have the power of life and death in my tongue. (Proverbs 18:21) The Lord Himself set the precedent we have for operating in faith and 'positive confession,' as you call it. (Genesis 1:3) I believe that He could have done what you think would have been right in that situation, when the darkness covered the face of the deep: He could have confessed the circumstances, by saying, "Wow. It sure is dark." But what good does that do? None. He spoke the solution. There never was light, there was no light and He said, "Let there BE LIGHT." Light came into being because He spoke in faith, knowing that what He said would come to pass. It did not happen by chance. It did not happen because time passed and eventually, sooner or later, some molecules of nothingness bumped into one another and accidentally created light. He made the light, by faith. When Jesus told the woman with the issue of blood that her faith had made her whole, He was not joking. Her faith was the force behind the healing overtaking her body. She brought it to pass by her positive confession and stout belief in her God. (Matthew 9:19-22) When we reject the examples set before us in the Gospels, and deny the knowledge of how to put them to use and appropriate from God the things that we need, we reject Him. I don't believe that the teachings of any person or group of people ought to keep us from seeking sound medical attention.

I believe that there are many miracles that so-called 'people of faith,' miss out on because they are not using common sense. Too many people, such as my poor deluded cousin I spoke about earlier, who died of a simple stomach tumor that was overlooked and became a huge masticized mess in her belly, because she was a Christian Science 'believer' who thought that she didn't need a doctor. Well, she will have to answer to God as to why she didn't avail herself of the many health-care opportunities that God provided for her healing. Her belief was based on repetition of poetry which makes far less sense (if you can believe this) than your poem in the first half of this very round. I know, because I used to recite them. I was raised Christian Science, and found NONE of God anywhere in that religion. I sought out God, found Him, and have dedicated my life to seeking more of Him.

I also believe that many people, such as yourself, and me sometimes too, destroy the work of God in this earth when we attack the tenets of faith in others, simply because we do not understand or do not investigate whether or not they are operating on God's behalf. I know of one woman, who was my pastor for a good while, who was a very profound Prophettess, who married a catholic, who drank like a fish. She met him in a nightclub, years ago, when her girlfriends talked her into going out with them. She took one look at this 'lounge-lizard,' (her words, not mine) and saw everything she hated about this type of place. He was slick, well-dressed and half-lit. He flirted with her, and when she was about to reject him, the Holy Ghost spoke to her heart and said, "This is the man you are going to marry, and stay married to." She was flabbergasted, and told Him, "Never." He replied, "He is one of My Catholic Believers." She later married him, and was instructed to anoint his beer bottles with oil and lay hands on them and pray. Less than two weeks after she started doing this, he found that he could no longer get drunk and no longer had a taste for liquor. Today, he is a well-established pastor in his own right.

Now, I am not saying that we need to accept the WOF movement or embrace heresy of any kind; but when the dogma of modern Christianity doesn't get the job we were sent here to do (evangelizing the world) we need to look for the Truth to be revealed and for the religious spirits to be exposed. The one that says, "Those WOF'ers, they are heretics," is the very one that we are against. Not against him personally, but against the religious spirit which dominated the Dark Ages, such that the Spirit of God was nearly snuffed out in the earth. Not that this can happen, but the Holy Spirit was limited the same way that Jesus was in His own home town, He could do only some few healings and that was all. Well, the Lord is saving the best wine (wine being a symbol of the Holy Spirit's anointing) for last. I believe we are in the last days, and that we are going to see an outpouring of the Spirit of the Lord which will more thoroughly fulfill the prophesy given by Joel than the original outpouring did. I believe in miracles and I don't believe they happen by themselves. The Lord moves on those who are close to Him, they respond in faith and step out in that faith and STAND on that faith. This is the type of people that God is looking for in these last days, people who will take Him at His Word, believe His Word, stand on His Word and defend His Word against all enemies, outside AND inside the Church, the Body of Christ.

Sorry, I did not have room to respond to all of your points, but I feel that the basic tenets of faith in God and in His Christ and in the Holy Spirit were attacked, and I am His Ambassodor in this earth, and speak on His behalf. On behalf of the part of me that is human, and if you find any error in my post, I apologize, but we are not perfect, yet. When that which is perfect is come, then and only then, will prophecying cease. To God be the victory, glory, honor and power; in Heaven and in the earth. Let all things praise Him.
 

Brother Vinny

New member
famousGandalf7, you said:

I will respond to the one thing which I feel is sacreligeous in your remarks...

The confession of healing over one’s body, claiming health by divine right, is part-and-parcel of the Movement—I know of no Word-Faith teacher who doesn’t teach this.

OK, now we're getting real. This is the faith stuff. Does the 'Word of Faith Movement,' as you are so fond of calling this group of preachers you have chosen to single out, teach heresy in regards to health and healing.

Get real. I have not "chosen" to single the Word-Faith Movement out any less than you've "chosen" to defend them (or actually, not defend them, as the case has been for the bulk of this debate). You accepted the challenge of this Battle with the full knowledge that this is what we'd be discussing. In Round One, you presented Kenneth Hagin as "no better figurehead for this movement." You've wrenched Scripture out of its context to bolster the Movement's "little gods" doctrine in round three. You've agreed with me, in that same round, that the list I began this Battle with was heresy. Then, in Round Four, after having been shown that the heresies I listed came from Ken Hagin and Kenneth Copeland, you began to distance yourself from the remarks by claiming their obscurity and even denied the existence of the "Word-Faith Movement." (How can Hagin be "no better figurehead" for a movement that doesn't exist?) Now you're asking, "Does the 'Word of Faith Movement'. . . teach heresy in regards to faith and healing(?)"

The answer is a resounding "YES!" Above and apart from the question of whether God is performing healings in our time (a topic I'll explore in a bit), there is an entitlement mentality in the movement not dissimilar to the prodigal son's attitude at the start of the parable ("I'll be having my inheritance now, please." Or sometimes, not even a "please"). "Divine health is my covenant right!," as Ken Hagin puts it. Such a mentality is insult to God, as He is not "entitled" to give us anything, but gives to us freely out of His love for us.

Well, do you believe that God, in the Bible, called Himself Jehovah Rophe, meaning, "I Am the God that healeth thee?" (Exodus 15:26) I do. By the way, I don't believe that God operates on coincedence, and I believe that the word Rophe is placed in the middle of the word 'prophet' for a very profound reason. It is to let us know what the office of the prophet is designed for: HEALING.

This is all fine and good. I believe there is room within Christianity for a genuine discussion between believers as to whether healing (and, for that matter, the office of prophet) is being granted in our time. There's room in Christianity for the Charismatics, who believe that God is quite definitely still healing today, and the Cessationalists, who believe that healings have passed. I myself fall somewhere in between. I don't deny that God can still heal today, and I believe that it's His prerogative to do so if He wishes. Having said that, I also believe that we are members of the Body of Christ, and as such have a special calling toward suffering (Rom 8:18; 2 Cor 1:5-7; Phi 3:10; Col 1:24). I believe the Body of Christ finds its example in the Apostle Paul, who enjoins us to imitate him as he imitates Christ (1 Cor 11:1). Paul warned early on that there would be a time when prophecies would fail (1 Cor 13:8; I believe the perfection which was to come was the Word of God Paul said he was to complete, Col 1:25), and by the end of his ministry, he left one friend sick (2 Ti 4:20) and prescribed wine for another friend's stomachache (1 Ti 5:23).

There's no denial by me of God's covenant name (one of several signifying His covenant with Israel), Jehovah-Rophe. I even believe we in the Body of Christ will one day experience this healing (Rom 8:23). For now, though, I'm content to know I've been given every spiritual blessing (Eph 1:3). I do not necessarily expect every physical blessing in this life, and it shocks me to think anyone would consider themselves entitled to God's healing.

Moving on. . . .

My Bible also teaches me that I am to choose whom I serve. (Joshua 24:15)

A hearty "Amen!" there.

I am to keep in mind that I have the power of life and death in my tongue. (Proverbs 18:21)

Ah, now we get somewhere; in fact, we get to one of the verses twisted out of context by the Word-Faith Movement to support its wacky teachings. All one has to remember to place this passage in its proper context is who wrote it, and to whom. King Solomon wrote it to his son; the present king of Israel to the future king. The king indeed has the power of life and death within his tongue; his command often decides whether a nation will go to war or remain at peace. There may be application for the believer in how he should speak to those within his sphere of influence, but there's no need to give this passage some sort of mystical meaning.

The Lord Himself set the precedent we have for operating in faith and 'positive confession,' as you call it. (Genesis 1:3) I believe that He could have done what you think would have been right in that situation, when the darkness covered the face of the deep: He could have confessed the circumstances, by saying, "Wow. It sure is dark." But what good does that do? None. He spoke the solution. There never was light, there was no light and He said, "Let there BE LIGHT." Light came into being because He spoke in faith, knowing that what He said would come to pass. It did not happen by chance. It did not happen because time passed and eventually, sooner or later, some molecules of nothingness bumped into one another and accidentally created light. He made the light, by faith.

We finally get to some core heresy, here, and also find that fG7 does indeed espouse it. How sad.

Tell me, fG7, what "higher power" did God place His faith in? How can God be said to have faith at all? Faith is evidence of our humanity. We are incomplete, so we place our faith in something or someone who we think will make us complete. Most people place their faith in material things, or upon themselves. A few choose God (the right choice, as it happens). To say God has faith in anything is a denial of His character, His completeness unto Himself. God created the universe, and light soon after, not by faith but by His own power. The cause-and-effect realationship of God speaking and light becoming can hardly be called faith; God didn't create the light to overcome some sort of incompleteness within Himself, but to complete the universe. He knew it would come to pass because He said it; He didn't say it because He knew it would come to pass. Sure knowledge of one's own power is not faith.

I think this is enough to condemn the Word-Faith Movement of antibiblical heresy. Webster's 1828 Dictionary defines faith as, "the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence." Who is this "another" that declared the truth unto God? I wish to meet him.
 

Aimiel

New member
"Divine health is my covenant right!," as Ken Hagin puts it. Such a mentality is insult to God, as He is not "entitled" to give us anything, but gives to us freely out of His love for us.
I believe that I have rights under this New and Better Covenant (than the Abrahamic Covenant). If you don't, that is up to you. We appropriate all of God that we have the faith for. The only limit God has in the life of a believer is their faith and the amount and type of prayer they attend to. If there was any thing else which limited Him, it was defeated at the cross. I have found out how to appropriate the things My Father has in store for me, such as the ability to know and walk in the plan He has for my life and to make available to His Body the ministry gifts He has chosen to bless my life with.
I believe there is room within Christianity for a genuine discussion between believers as to whether healing (and, for that matter, the office of prophet) is being granted in our time. There's room in Christianity for the Charismatics, who believe that God is quite definitely still healing today, and the Cessationalists, who believe that healings have passed. I myself fall somewhere in between. I don't deny that God can still heal today, and I believe that it's His prerogative to do so if He wishes. Having said that, I also believe that we are members of the Body of Christ, and as such have a special calling toward suffering (Rom 8:18; 2 Cor 1:5-7; Phi 3:10; Col 1:24).
If you truly believe that, then don't go to a doctor the next time you get sick, and don't even think about praying about it. But whatever you do, don't try to deny the Truth from Scripture, just because you don't believe the portions that someone else does.
I believe the Body of Christ finds its example in the Apostle Paul, who enjoins us to imitate him as he imitates Christ (1 Cor 11:1). Paul warned early on that there would be a time when prophecies would fail (1 Cor 13:8; I believe the perfection which was to come was the Word of God Paul said he was to complete, Col 1:25), and by the end of his ministry, he left one friend sick (2 Ti 4:20) and prescribed wine for another friend's stomachache (1 Ti 5:23)
I am not a 'Paulian,' or of Peter, James, John or any other. I am a Christian. If I see Paul following Christ in a way which is closer to Christ than I do, I'd better take heed. I am sure that he too was one to lay hands on the sick, and got to see them recover; but as far as following someone besides the Holy Spirit of Christ, I can not be turned. I am also sure that he would agree.
There's no denial by me of God's covenant name (one of several signifying His covenant with Israel), Jehovah-Rophe. I even believe we in the Body of Christ will one day experience this healing (Rom 8:23). For now, though, I'm content to know I've been given every spiritual blessing (Eph 1:3). I do not necessarily expect every physical blessing in this life, and it shocks me to think anyone would consider themselves entitled to God's healing.
It shocks me to think there is someone who calls himself Christian and doesn't believe that God is willing and able to heal ALL who call upon Him to do so. If you were able to do so for one of your earthly children, would you say, "No, you are better off suffering?" I don't think so. Your Heavenly Father is certainly a better role-model than you. Again, I choose to believe the Word, which you seem to have neglected the study of on this, one of the most important of subjects. How can you say that we have a New and Better Covenant with Him than Israel had, under Abraham? Their healing was provided for. The only thing one had to do when bitten by a snake when they were in the wilderness was to look up at the snake on a stick, which is what we (in charismatic circles) consider ourselves to be doing when we speak of our healing, we are looking to Jesus. The healing of His stripes belongs to us. If you don't believe that, then don't pray when you get sick.
The king indeed has the power of life and death within his tongue; his command often decides whether a nation will go to war or remain at peace. There may be application for the believer in how he should speak to those within his sphere of influence, but there's no need to give this passage some sort of mystical meaning.
I did not give any 'mystical' or spooky-spiritual meaning to the truth expressed here. We allow the devil to use our lips when we call someone a name or tell a lie. We also allow the Truth to be expressed by the same lips. How can we expect the fountain, which is corrupt to bring forth sweet waters, when we are so bitter on our insides? The power of the Scriptures is a mystery, and to those that perish it is foolishness. The Truth of a believer (or even a non-believer) giving license to the forces of good or evil in his life by allowing his mouth to express his faith (or lack of it) brings these things into this realm. When we take the authority that Jesus gave us over the devil and keep him in his place; which, by the way, is under our feet; and give expression to the Word of God over our lives, we can have the victory. It is not possible any other way. With the heart man believes and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. It is the same way with everything in our lives. The enemy has a field day with someone who does not corral him and break his power over their lives. If we focus on Satan and our problems and our circumstances and speak the truth about what we see, we are walking by sight and are no better off than someone who is lost. If we focus on Christ, pray for deliverance, and speak the solution, and believe that we have what we ask Him for, it will be done even as we have asked. Jesus said, "Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. -- Mark 11:24 Do you think that He was lying? Or did I take that out of context too?
Tell me, fG7, what "higher power" did God place His faith in?
Himself.
How can God be said to have faith at all?
He believes in you, and from over here, I believe that is a FAAAAAR stretch.
To say God has faith in anything is a denial of His character, His completeness unto Himself.
No, it shows that He is faithful and He displays this faith everyday. This is the highest expression of character, the ability to believe the promises of another, such as yourself.
God created the universe, and light soon after, not by faith but by His own power.
If there were no faith in His Words, the light never would have been. He is love, and that love has faith.
The cause-and-effect realationship of God speaking and light becoming can hardly be called faith; God didn't create the light to overcome some sort of incompleteness within Himself, but to complete the universe. He knew it would come to pass because He said it; He didn't say it because He knew it would come to pass. Sure knowledge of one's own power is not faith.
I did not say that He had no knowledge of His ability, but He displayed His faith by speaking. He could have just 'zapped' everything, with the amount of power He has, it would have been possible. He didn't. He chose to demonstrate for us the principles of faith, by speaking.
I think this is enough to condemn the Word-Faith Movement of antibiblical heresy. Webster's 1828 Dictionary defines faith as, "the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence." Who is this "another" that declared the truth unto God? I wish to meet him.
I don't think you have proved your case. I can't say that one person I have seen you present evidence on needs to be convicted of heresy. I see far more evidence that the Word-Faith Movement is Biblical than I do of any other denomination, group or single church. I have been to many, many different types of churches, all over this country, and have heard far more heretical statements in Catholic and Protestant mainline churches. As far as heretical teaching, I still think that there is no preponderance of evidence, no wide-ranging anti-Biblical or anti-Christ doctrine going on, in front of or behind the scenes. They just aren't agreeing and teaching huge Biblical error, as you seem to think that you have proven.

I agree that there have been some indescrepancies by some men, who I have never considered to be perfect. I only know one Preacher who is Perfect. :)
 

Nathon Detroit

New member
ANY AND ALL POSTS ON THIS THREAD WILL BE DELETED UNLESS THEY ARE POSTED BY: Me (Knight), Becky, Paul DeYonghe or famousGandalf7. You may discuss Battle Royale V here.
 

Brother Vinny

New member
Round Seven!

Round Seven!

fG7, you said,

I believe that I have rights under this New and Better Covenant (than the Abrahamic Covenant). If you don't, that is up to you. We appropriate all of God that we have the faith for. The only limit God has in the life of a believer is their faith and the amount and type of prayer they attend to.

I would be hard-pressed to call the blessings God has chosen to bestow as "rights" or "entitlements"; this language again hearkens back to the prodigal son. How can one say one is entitled to grace, for example?

Also, you seem to neglect one limit God has in the life of the believer: that of His own desire. If He desires that the Body of Christ be called to suffering (as I've cited earlier) and for the divine healing of that Body to be concurrent with the redemption of the earth (as I've also cited earlier), then that is His prerogative.

You said,

If you truly believe that, then don't go to a doctor the next time you get sick, and don't even think about praying about it. But whatever you do, don't try to deny the Truth from Scripture, just because you don't believe the portions that someone else does.

That doesn't follow. Just because we're denied divine physical healing (His grace is sufficient) doesn't mean that we can't fight sickness with natural means. Indeed, Paul enjoined Timothy to do so.

You said,

I am not a 'Paulian,' or of Peter, James, John or any other. I am a Christian. If I see Paul following Christ in a way which is closer to Christ than I do, I'd better take heed. I am sure that he too was one to lay hands on the sick, and got to see them recover; but as far as following someone besides the Holy Spirit of Christ, I can not be turned. I am also sure that he would agree.

I have to question the holiness of a spirit that would lead one to embrace the doctrines of the Word-Faith Movement.

Furthermore, I question any spirit that leads one to deny the Holy Spirit-inspired words of Paul. I'm not a "Paulian," either, but a member of the Body of Christ. One can not make a claim to be a member of the Body of Christ, however, without invoking Paul's legacy. Paul (through the Holy Spirit) referred to himself as "the apostle to the Gentiles" and magnified his office (Rom 11:13). The Holy Spirit tells the Body of Christ to be followers of Paul as He is of Christ (cited earlier), and that Paul is to be the pattern for those who would believe after him (1 Tim 1:16). If Paul was led by the Holy Spirit to place so much emphasis upon himself like this (and I believe he was), why do you de-emphasize his role?

It shocks me to think there is someone who calls himself Christian and doesn't believe that God is willing and able to heal ALL who call upon Him to do so.

Then be shocked. God is, of course, able to heal any who call upon Him. That leaves "willing." God discloses His will through the Bible, and His specific will for the Body of Christ through Paul's letters. If God sees wisdom in allowing members of the Body of Christ to suffer as the world suffers, so be it. Who are you to question God's will?

If you were able to do so for one of your earthly children, would you say, "No, you are better off suffering?" I don't think so.

This bears the subtle implication that I have God's wisdom and omniscience. I don't. And it may not be me who is "better off" for my suffering. It may be that my suffering, and the grace demonstrated through me by enduring said suffering, is instrumental in God's plan to save individuals who witness my suffering. Surely the salvation of a lost soul is more important than my physical needs.

Your Heavenly Father is certainly a better role-model than you. Again, I choose to believe the Word, which you seem to have neglected the study of on this, one of the most important of subjects. How can you say that we have a New and Better Covenant with Him than Israel had, under Abraham?

I can say that, in the Body of Christ, I am a minister of the new covenant according to the spirit (2 Cr 3:6), and because of this all spiritual blessings are mine (Eph 1:3). I can say our covenant is "new and better" because it isn't reliant upon circumcision or adherence to the law; that we're justified without any works (Rom 4:5). These points alone make it "new and better."

The only thing one had to do when bitten by a snake when they were in the wilderness was to look up at the snake on a stick, which is what we (in charismatic circles) consider ourselves to be doing when we speak of our healing, we are looking to Jesus. The healing of His stripes belongs to us. If you don't believe that, then don't pray when you get sick.

Other than a prayer for the Holy Spirit's comfort and grace to endure the situation, I don't. I know God's grace is sufficient for me. To ask for anything more when I know His calling for the Body is, quite frankly, an insult.

As to the rest, it's hard to have a discussion, as we can't even seem to agree upon meanings of words. You say God had faith in Himself. I say that faith is so inherently tied to our weakness as humans that it is meaningless to speak of our all-powerful God as having faith. So, obviously, there are different definitions of faith at work.

I don't believe God has faith in me, as you have implied. (I see a difference between mere belief and biblical faith, as we've discussed earlier; of course God believes I exist.) He may have hopes as to what I may become, which I'm sure are dashed time and again just as His hopes for Israel to produce fresh fruit were.

No, it shows that He is faithful and He displays this faith everyday. This is the highest expression of character, the ability to believe the promises of another, such as yourself.

I think it's quite a leap to imply from the adjective "faithful," as it applies to God, means that He has faith. More apt a definition would be "worthy of one's faith" or "trustworthy," as God surely is.

If there were no faith in His Words, the light never would have been. He is love, and that love has faith.

Again, I believe this stretches the word "faith" beyond its intended meaning. God's sure knowlegde of His own abilities and His intent should not be confused with faith. It's not faith for a person to believe the sun will come up in the east. This is a belief based upon empirical evidence; the sun has always come up in the east. This places this belief in the realm of sure knowledge. Faith comes into play in regard to things that are not empirically verified. Some people, for instance, believe in the existence of vampires. But it has never been shown that vampires, at least the supernatural kind, exist, so this would be faith.

Now, I believe the Christian faith to be infitinitely more reasonable that a belief in the existence of vampires. I even have evidence through the witness of Scripture and through the Holy Spirit testifying with my own that I am His. But I can't call this empirical evidence because I can't force a nonbeliever to see the Scriptures as I see them, and I can't show him my "spiritual status." This qualifies my belief as faith.

I did not say that He had no knowledge of His ability, but He displayed His faith by speaking. He could have just 'zapped' everything, with the amount of power He has, it would have been possible. He didn't. He chose to demonstrate for us the principles of faith, by speaking.

Implying that God does anything by faith denies His sure knowledge of His ability, though, as I've shown above. And I believe He chose speaking as the method to create the universe not to demonstrate the principles of faith, but as a reminder of how infinitely more powerful He is than we are.

I don't think you have proved your case. I can't say that one person I have seen you present evidence on needs to be convicted of heresy.

So, are you now rescinding your earlier statements in regards to the list I'd started with?

Even so, I've provided more than enough evidence to show the Movement to be antibiblical. Do you want more? Or would you treat it with the same disregard and contempt you've shown the evidence that's been presented so far?

There's no convincing someone who will not be convinced.

I see far more evidence that the Word-Faith Movement is Biblical than I do of any other denomination, group or single church.

Of course you do. The church in the New Testament is replete with examples of being slain in the spirit, holy laughter, and preachers with designer suits and expensive chariots. And everyone in the Body of Christ received divine healing.

But we at least agree that it is a Movement, now, right?
 

Aimiel

New member
Re: Round Seven!

Re: Round Seven!

Also, you seem to neglect one limit God has in the life of the believer: that of His own desire. If He desires that the Body of Christ be called to suffering (as I've cited earlier) and for the divine healing of that Body to be concurrent with the redemption of the earth (as I've also cited earlier), then that is His prerogative.
If that were the case, I am sure that you would be able to give me several Scriptures which clearly show that suffering is His will for His Children. I believe that He wouold demonstrate otherwise. For instance, in Matthew 10:1: "And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease," you should note, He didn't say that there were some who did not deserve or need healing, or that need to suffer. We have a right to receive what the Lord has commanded we should have. Jesus bought and paid for our forgiveness, at the cross. We have eternal life when we believe in Him, as Lord and Savior. There were no such requirements given for healing. I don't ask someone the status of their salvation before I lay hands on them and pray for their healing, unless the Holy Spirit leads me to (He did once), I pray for anyone who requests prayer. Healing was given for anyone who is ill or injured.
I have to question the holiness of a spirit that would lead one to embrace the doctrines of the Word-Faith Movement.
If you were a partaker of this Spirit, you would not. He, alone, is Holy.
Furthermore, I question any spirit that leads one to deny the Holy Spirit-inspired words of Paul. I'm not a "Paulian," either, but a member of the Body of Christ. One can not make a claim to be a member of the Body of Christ, however, without invoking Paul's legacy.
I'm sorry, I missed the Scripture reference here... exactly which Scriptures (I need at least two, please) proclaim that we have to pray to Paul or bow to him or 'invoke Paul's legacy' to be saved. I am NOT a member of Paul. He is dead. Jesus is ALIVE. I believe in Him. I never said that Paul's writings were not a part of the New Testament. I believe that Paul was a great Apostle, even though He was not one of the original twelve.
Paul (through the Holy Spirit) referred to himself as "the apostle to the Gentiles" and magnified his office (Rom 11:13). The Holy Spirit tells the Body of Christ to be followers of Paul as He is of Christ (cited earlier), and that Paul is to be the pattern for those who would believe after him (1 Tim 1:16). If Paul was led by the Holy Spirit to place so much emphasis upon himself like this (and I believe he was), why do you de-emphasize his role?
I believe that by being filled with the Holy Spirit and praying continually, praying in tongues, more than just about anyone else I know, that I am following Paul's teachings. I am not de-emphasizing his role as an apostle. He is a man. I want to follow the Holy Spirit. That, my Bible tells me, is what I ought to be doing, if I expect to be called a son of God.
God is, of course, able to heal any who call upon Him. That leaves "willing." God discloses His will through the Bible, and His specific will for the Body of Christ through Paul's letters. If God sees wisdom in allowing members of the Body of Christ to suffer as the world suffers, so be it. Who are you to question God's will?
I don't question His Will, when He expresses it. Who are you to question what He has so clearly laid out in the Scriptures? Do you believe God makes injuries and sicknesses? As I said, next time you are hurt or sick, don't pray and don't go to a doctor. That would be foolishness. We see in the Bible that healing is made available, that God called Himself the 'God that healeth thee,' and gave the five-fold ministry to the church so that these things could be done; and yet you want to sit over in your 'religious' corner and put down someone because they believe they are filled with the Holy Spirit and that He told them to lay hands upon someone so that they could receive their healing, and then they do get healed, and you would say, "The devil must have done that?" Get real.
I can say that, in the Body of Christ, I am a minister of the new covenant according to the spirit (2 Cr 3:6), and because of this all spiritual blessings are mine (Eph 1:3). I can say our covenant is "new and better" because it isn't reliant upon circumcision or adherence to the law; that we're justified without any works (Rom 4:5). These points alone make it "new and better."
It seems you have set your sights way too low. You missed the healing boat, the Holy Spirit baptism boat and the gifts and ministries boat altogether. Those are some pretty good reasons to believe in this being the Best Possible Covenant available anywhere. I'd say it is fantastic, but you would probably tell me that is unscriptural and that I should hold still and be quiet while you preach your stumblingblocks to the blind you have gathered before you.
Other than a prayer for the Holy Spirit's comfort and grace to endure the situation, I don't. I know God's grace is sufficient for me. To ask for anything more when I know His calling for the Body is, quite frankly, an insult.
Sorry, I did not mean to insult you. I am, however going to continue to pray for the sick, and (with God doing the healing as He wills) I am also going to see them healed. "Personally, I couldn't heal a flea with a headache." Kenneth E. Hagin said that, many, many times. Jesus always gets the glory.
I don't believe God has faith in me, as you have implied.
You have started to turn me on this point, too.
(I see a difference between mere belief and biblical faith, as we've discussed earlier; of course God believes I exist.) He may have hopes as to what I may become, which I'm sure are dashed time and again just as His hopes for Israel to produce fresh fruit were.
He is never disappointed, only believing the best of all of us. We are to believe all things, as I am sure He does. No, that is not to say that God does not know when someone is lying, but He does have faith in us in ways that we need to learn from. This is an interesting Bible study; looking through the Bible for places where God expresses His faith in us. I have studied several subjects like this, and found more expressed in there than I ever suspected.
Now, I believe the Christian faith to be infitinitely more reasonable that a belief in the existence of vampires. I even have evidence through the witness of Scripture and through the Holy Spirit testifying with my own that I am His. But I can't call this empirical evidence because I can't force a nonbeliever to see the Scriptures as I see them, and I can't show him my "spiritual status." This qualifies my belief as faith.
Now you know how I feel trying to show someone on +OL that Holy Spirit baptism is real.
Implying that God does anything by faith denies His sure knowledge of His ability, though, as I've shown above. And I believe He chose speaking as the method to create the universe not to demonstrate the principles of faith, but as a reminder of how infinitely more powerful He is than we are.
No, if He wanted to do that, He would have made us first, so that we could watch... or maybe He would have made a video and shown us. NO, WRONG!!! He made everything there is for one reason, so we could tell one another about Jesus. If He wanted us to worship Him for His Power, He could have done some really big demonstrations when He walked the earth. He didn't. He wants us to come to Him because of His Love for us, and in doing so we prove our reverence for Him and for His Children, and then He is able to trust us with His Power. Neither does He give us power so that we can love Him. He loves us, and we respond in kind to that love, and then we are entrusted with His power.
 

Brother Vinny

New member
Round Eight!

Round Eight!

I’d like to start out by apologizing to readers, charismatic and non-charismatic alike, for allowing this discussion to venture from that which is essential (and, in the case of the Word-Faith Movement, essentially wrong) to matters which are open for debate. I refer, of course, to the debate over the role of physical miracles in the Body of Christ. I don’t apologize for what I believe in this matter; we tend to defend against heresy in light of the doctrines we believe, and I’m no different in that regard. Miracles are central to the Word-Faith Movement; they are the tools it uses to sheer its flock of burdensome lucre. Any discussion of the movement will therefore include a discussion of miracles. If famousGandalf7 (or anyone else, for that matter) wishes to discuss the existence of present-day physical miracles further, I’ll be open to debating it in open forum once this battle has concluded.

fG7 said,

If that were the case, I am sure that you would be able to give me several Scriptures which clearly show that suffering is His will for His Children.

I have already cited several places where the Body of Christ is called to suffering. As a courtesy, I will quote them fully below:

  • And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. --Romans 5:3-5
  • Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. --Ephesians 3:13
  • And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. --2 Cor 12:9

Then, you said:

For instance, in Matthew 10:1: "And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease," you should note, He didn't say that there were some who did not deserve or need healing, or that need to suffer.


Yes, I believe Jesus said this. Jesus was also on a mission to save Israel (Matt 15:24) and then the world through Israel (Zech 8:22-23, Acts 1:8). Close study of Scripture should show you that, at some point, God temporarily abandoned that plan to work through the Body of Christ, in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile. We know this because, among other reasons, God doesn’t require us to circumcise. Indeed, we are explicitly required not to circumcise for religious reasons (Gal 5:2-4 -- although we’re free to circumcise for social considerations, Acts 16:1-3). You won’t find any commands from Jesus’ earthly ministry to not circumcise; Jesus taught adherence to the Mosaic Law, both before and after His death and resurrection (Matt 5:19, 28:20). Ignorance of the disparity between God’s plan for Israel and His plan for the Body of Christ forms much of the foundation for your way of thinking. You find God’s command to not circumcise only in Paul’s writings, a gospel revealed directly to him by Jesus Christ (Gal 1:12).

Healing was given for anyone who is ill or injured.

Go see Joni Erickson Tada, then. See if she’ll let you pray for her. If she gets up from her wheelchair, I’ll eat my words.

Your view, as presented here, doesn’t comport with the reality we see around us, even within the Movement you defend. People within the Movement have died while waiting for the Word-Faith God to fulfill his part of the “covenant.” Meanwhile, “miracles” are reserved for those whose diseases are largely psychosomatic to begin with, or for those whose diseases have a history of spontaneous remission. No blindness is cured, no limbs regrown, no paraplegics suddenly walking.

Benny Hinn is perhaps the most well known Word-Faith “healer” on earth. This is in spite of the fact the people have been killed at his speaking engagements! Even putting this atrocious fact aside, what real good is any of Hinn’s “healing” really doing? The Christian Research Institute attempted to find out, and acquired from Hinn three testimonies of healing, with doctors’ records and documentation. Presumably, these are the cream of the crop; one would want to present the best evidence one has when one’s ministry is called into question. What did the CRI find? Case 1 was colon cancer. It was discovered that, in this specific instance, the cancer had been surgically removed. Case 2 was lupus, which is well-known to spontaneously remit in patients. The third case was a spinal tumor, which had begun shrinking three months prior to attending Hinn’s meeting, and was still present months after it had been allegedly healed.

If you were a partaker of this Spirit, you would not. He, alone, is Holy.

I am sure the spirit you follow attests to its own holiness while at the same time leads you to embrace a counterfeit gospel. I once partook of this same spirit. It took the patience and prayers of friends within mainline Christianity (my wife among them, for one) and the works of brilliant Christian thinkers like Hank Hanegraff (Christianity in Crisis), Dave Hunt (Occult Invasion), John MacArthur (Charismatic Chaos), and Walter Martin (The Agony of Deceit) to shed light for me upon the antibiblical practices of the Word-Faith movement.

I'm sorry, I missed the Scripture reference here... exactly which Scriptures (I need at least two, please) proclaim that we have to pray to Paul or bow to him or 'invoke Paul's legacy' to be saved.

You twist my words. This shouldn’t surprise me; one who has no qualms about following teachers that twist Scripture to fit their doctrines would have no trouble at all making my words mean what they did not intend. By “invoke Paul’s legacy,” I did not mean that we pray or bow to Paul. The Body of Christ was a special revelation to the Apostle Paul, a mystery never before revealed (Rom 16:25-26; Eph 3:4-6; Col 1:26-27). Every time we claim to be members of Christ’s Body, we pay respect to this mystery. This mystery isn’t so much “Paul’s legacy”—an unfortunate choice of words in retrospect—but God’s legacy through Paul.

I believe that Paul was a great Apostle, even though He was not one of the original twelve.

You got that right, although I bet you never gave much thought as to why God called an Apostle apart from the Twelve. I’ll give you a hint. Twelve is a number indicative of Israel: twelve tribes, twelve prophets, twelve-times-twelve hours (144 hours, or six days) in which Israel was allowed to work, and so on. One is indicative of the Body of Christ: one Lord, one faith, one baptism, etc. (see Ephesians 4:4-6).

I don't question His Will, when He expresses it. Who are you to question what He has so clearly laid out in the Scriptures?

He has clearly expressed a call to suffering for the Body of Christ (as evidenced in the Scriptures I quoted above) and has given us His promise that our bodies would be redeemed in the future (Romans 8:23). Your question is thus turned back upon you: Who are you, fG7, to question what God has so clearly laid out in the Scriptures?

Do you believe God makes injuries and sicknesses?

“Makes” as in “creates?” No. He can cause these things to happen, though, and often uses them to achieve His purposes. For example, He can use a “messenger of Satan” as a “thorn in [Paul’s] flesh,” to keep the apostle from getting puffed up about the revelations he’d received (2 Cor 12:7).

As I said, next time you are hurt or sick, don't pray and don't go to a doctor. That would be foolishness.

We’ve already discussed this. I pray, not for healing, but for comfort. And I go to the doctor because seeking natural help for ailments is encouraged in this dispensation.

We see in the Bible that healing is made available

Where then is Paul’s healing (2 Cor 12:7-9)? Where then is Timothy’s healing for his stomach (1 Tim 5:23)? Where is the healing for Paul’s sick friend in Miletum (2 Tim 4:20)? If so much healing is available, why aren’t these godly men healed?

yet you want to sit over in your 'religious' corner and put down someone because they believe they are filled with the Holy Spirit and that He told them to lay hands upon someone so that they could receive their healing, and then they do get healed, and you would say, "The devil must have done that?" Get real.

I don’t attribute any healings to the devil; I don’t even see any true healings performed. What I see are hoaxes being perpetrated, and I chalk those up to wicked (or foolish) men preying upon the gullibility of people in desperate need.

It seems you have set your sights way too low. You missed the healing boat, the Holy Spirit baptism boat and the gifts and ministries boat altogether. Those are some pretty good reasons to believe in this being the Best Possible Covenant available anywhere. I'd say it is fantastic, but you would probably tell me that is unscriptural and that I should hold still and be quiet while you preach your stumblingblocks to the blind you have gathered before you.

I don’t feel I’ve missed any “boat.” I once boarded the “miracles-on-demand” luxury cruise liner, then abandoned ship when I realized it was sinking beneath the weight of unfulfilled promises in the lives of those I observed on board. If you wish to stay on board, that is your concern. It’s only fair to inform you that your empty claims and insults regarding the “blind I have gathered before [me]” are tantamount to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Sorry, I did not mean to insult you.

The insult I referred to was not toward me, but toward God. I imagine following in a Movement that regularly insults God has left you somewhat callous to the grief such insults cause the Holy Spirit, so your confusion is to be expected. It is an insult to God to expect supernatural healing when one is called to suffering.

"Personally, I couldn't heal a flea with a headache." Kenneth E. Hagin said that, many, many times. Jesus always gets the glory.

I guess it depends on what day you ask Dad Hagin. He has also had at least one instance where “God” told him that he (“God”) was unable to do anything without Hagin’s intervention. Go figure.

You have started to turn me on this point, too.

Ooh! Another zinger! You’re getting good at this—insulting rather than answering valid points, that is.

He is never disappointed, only believing the best of all of us.

fG7, you’ve really stepped in it this time. You don’t think God is ever disappointed with us? Allow me to quote for you just a few times where God has expressed disappointment with us humans:

  • And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. --Gen 6:6-7
  • And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard. What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? --Isa 5:3-4
  • O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! --Matt 23:36

We are to believe all things, as I am sure He does.


Since God “believes all things,” does God then believe that both of us are correct in what we believe on this issue? The passage regarding love in 1 Corinthians 13 can be taken too far. It describes a “more excellent way” (see v. 12:31), a path to be followed by us and sought more earnestly than spiritual gifts. God doesn’t need to seek this path; He is the path. This should not be taken as license to ascribe to an all-powerful God an attribute characteristic of human weakness.

(It should also be noted from this passage, “love seeks not its own.” Quite a difference, I’d say, from “demanding one’s covenant rights” and “name it and claim it.” Wouldn’t you agree, fG7?)

No, that is not to say that God does not know when someone is lying, but He does have faith in us in ways that we need to learn from. This is an interesting Bible study; looking through the Bible for places where God expresses His faith in us. I have studied several subjects like this, and found more expressed in there than I ever suspected.


I’d very much like to see this “Bible study.”

No, if He wanted to do that, He would have made us first, so that we could watch... or maybe He would have made a video and shown us. NO, WRONG!!! He made everything there is for one reason, so we could tell one another about Jesus. If He wanted us to worship Him for His Power, He could have done some really big demonstrations when He walked the earth. He didn't. He wants us to come to Him because of His Love for us, and in doing so we prove our reverence for Him and for His Children, and then He is able to trust us with His Power. Neither does He give us power so that we can love Him. He loves us, and we respond in kind to that love, and then we are entrusted with His power.


You confuse the issue, and I’m not sure it is by accident (although I’m willing to believe it is :) ). God’s words are a grand demonstration of His power. His words do not return to him void (Isa 55:11); man’s often do. Now, maybe God’s plan for Israel included signs and wonders, including imbuing man’s words with His power (one possible interpretation of Mark 11:23). But the body of Christ isn’t Israel, and we are to make our requests known to God (Phil 4:6), the result of which being not that the request is necessarily granted, but that we receive the peace of God that passes all understanding.
 

Aimiel

New member
To the Shepherds of the Flock

To the Shepherds of the Flock

I have somewhat to say unto the shepherds of the flocks. The shepherds of the flocks have been biting and devouring one another! Not only devouring the sheep, but devouring one another through criticism and horrible, terrible acts, that I consider as sin, saith the Lord.
I will not tolerate this sin any longer in the body of Christ. It will not be tolerated. It will not be tolerated. It will not be tolerated. It will be stopped, either by your voluntary repentance, and I will count it as a cleansing and I will count it as done and it will no longer be brought up to you anymore, or I will put a stop to it, saith the Chief Shepherd. And if I have to stop you, you will have rather had it done some other way. But it will stop among the shepherds of the flock, saith the Lord.
There are those in these latter days that hae been critical of the moving of the Spirit, that have been harsh on My lambs, have been harsh on My people, have been harsh with one another, and have committed and are still committing sins that must stop, saith God. Now is the time. Judgement begins with the house of God, and it is time for these things to be put away. There are those that will refuse to walk in holiness, and there are those that will refuse to stop criticizing, and there are those that will refuse their churches to the sinners in the street as they come flowing into your congregations. I will remove your candle from its place in your life and in your surroundings, and things that I will not bring up now, but I warn you, saith the Spirit of Grace, the end has come, and it is the end of My patience with sin. It is the end of My holding Myself back, for it is the time of My manifestation in My fullness, and I shall act as a mighty warrior. I shall go through the land, and My enemies shall be slain before Me.
This that stand up against My move and try to stop what I'm doing in the earth, and those that stand up and say, "No, no, no, no, this is not of us, this is not what we want, no, no, no, no, we don't want those sinners in our church, no, we don't want your kind," I will destroy your sheepfold and I'll scatter your flock and I'll take them to the sheepfold where they'll be fed and led into green pastures and beside still, peaceful waters.
I will not tolerate the storms of sin and doubt and unbelief among My people any longer! For these are the days that all the body of Christ has been praying and waiting for. It will not be spoiled and ruined by foolish and unlearned religious fools, for these are the days of the outpouring of the former and the latter rain. You cannot stand and resist the flood, because the flood will crush you trying to resist it.
You can't just be passive and ride the fence. It will sweep away your fence and all that your thought was secure. But all those that will ride this flood of spiritual power, we shall together ridt the crest of it, saith the Chief Shepherd, until we reach high ground.



Do not become discouraged because the truth does not dawn on your spirits all at once, but keep meditating on the facts of the Word. The more you meditate on the facts of that which is written, and the more you meditate on that which is said as one shall speak under the anointing and the inspiriation of the Spirit, then, little by little, it will become real to you. And as on the inside of you, in your spirit, in your inner man, it takes shape and form, it will reshape your own spirit, until you'll no longer be a weakling, spiritually, but you shall become strong, and be able to stand, and do the works the Lord has called you unto, and rule and reign and dominate in life, as a king by Jesus Christ. So do not turn away even because you do not fully understand or see. But let your mind be open and your spirit be receptive and say thou, "O blessed Holy Spirit, unveil the truth unto my spirit, that I may stand in the fullness of the provision of my Father, for He is my Father. I love Him and He loves me." And so you will become that which He has ordained that you should become, and rise up to the level of the full privileges, and rights and authority, and dominion of a son of God. Rejoice and be glad, and speak forth the word of faith. Speak unto those circumstances that have you bound, and command them to leave, and so you shall be loosed. Speak unto the storm that appears on the horizon of your life, and say, "Peace, be still," and there will be calm. Learn what is yours, and act upon it, and it shall become yours in reality.
 

Nathon Detroit

New member
ANY AND ALL POSTS ON THIS THREAD WILL BE DELETED UNLESS THEY ARE POSTED BY: Me (Knight), Becky, Paul DeYonghe or famousGandalf7. You may discuss Battle Royale V here.
 

Brother Vinny

New member
Round Nine

Round Nine

Friends and Neighbors,

What we have witnessed from my opponent is, in the realm of apologetics, tantamount to seeing someone continue to swing wildly after having his nose broken and landing no punches. famousGandalf7, in lieu of having Scriptural truth with which to attack my position, has proceeded to put words into the mouth of God Almighty. I pity him, so much so that I have asked the referee to call this match out of mercy for my opponent. Such request was declined. Hesitant as I am to kick somebody when they're already down and bleeding profusely, I have been enjoined to remain strong and see this battle to its end.

fG7's wild swings have been aimed at "the Shepherds of the Flock." I am no shepherd. I do not even raise myself to the lofty position of a "sheepdog." I am merely one of the sheep, trying to discern the straw from the sticks of Christian doctrine. Somehow, poisonous plants have been added to this hodgepodge, and if I stumble upon them, I do feel it my duty to bleat loudly to my fellow sheep about the dangerous growths in our pasture. This is precisely what I have done in regards to the Word-Faith Movement in this battle.

fG7 speaks, in his post, of the harshness of those (including myself, presumably) who levy criticism on other "shepherds." He seems to have forgotten Jesus' treatment of the scribes and Pharisees, criticized for hypocrisy because they did not adhere to themselves a Law they so adamantly enjoined others to follow. He also seems to have forgotten Jesus treatment of the moneychangers in the Temple, who felt His scourge on their backsides for making His Father's house into a den of thieves. fG7 also seems to have forgotten Paul's displeasure with the Judaizers; the Apostle's anger at those who would pervert the gospel of grace was so great that he wished that they were cut off. Harshness has its place in evangelism, especially in regard to false doctrines. And while I've been harsh, I've tried my best not to be excessively harsh.

fG7 also speaks much about "devouring." Although he probably thinks otherwise, I do not wish to devour him, nor anyone else within the Word-Faith Movement. My earnest wish is that he, along with everyone else within the Movement who is within my sphere of influence, is converted to my way of thinking (or, failing that, is at least convinced that the Word-Faith Movement is antibiblical and leaves it). My call is not one to destruction, but to repentance. I do not wish to see Hagin, Copeland, Hinn, Crouch, or any other Faith preacher destroyed. If I could witness to them one-on-one, I'd certainly welcome the opportunity. Alas, the siren song of Rolls-Royces, Rolexes, Armani suits, and expensive homes may be too loud for my tiny voice to be heard. Rather than lament this fact of life, I do what I can with the influence I have.

fG7 presumes to speak quite a bit for God. One has to wonder if he knows the dangers inherent in such an act. False prophecy is not exactly smiled upon in the Bible-- indeed, it is punishable by death! So when I hear fG7 say, "I [God] will not tolerate this sin any longer in the body of Christ," I feel inclined to challenge such a prophecy. If I continue to criticize as I have done, and God indeed tolerates my continuance, is this then proof that fG7 has uttered false prophecy? If so, is fG7 then willing to take upon himself the criminal penalty for uttering false prophecy?

At the expense of perhaps fulfilling another portion of fG7’s “prophecy,” I intend to continue to criticize the leaders of the Word-Faith Movement for their heretical teachings. I am commanded to reprove the unfruitful works of darkness (Eph 5:11). I shall continue to do so even should I find them being performed among those who profess the name of Christ. I expect a God intolerant of such will take supernatural measures to see to it that I stop, just like He stopped Walter Martin by killing him (as Kenneth Hagin has implied).

As for the rest of fG7's post, much of it is either redundant ("It will not be tolerated. It will not be tolerated. It will not be tolerated.") or non-applicable to our discussion (what's all this business about barring sinners from church?). fG7's argument has become the car wreck which one does not want to look at, but from which we cannot tear our fascinated gaze. I should feel vindicated, and I do, but not without a great deal of sadness. Sadness in part because it's never fun to see one destroy oneself against biblical truth; sadness in part because it is almost impossible for someone so entrenched in error to come to repentance. It may at this point be a futile gesture; nonetheless, I will be praying that repentance comes to famousGandalf7's house, and soon.

Your Humble Servant,

Paul DeYonghe
 

Aimiel

New member
Words that Speak Faith

Words that Speak Faith

I found the first quote in my previous post in Kenneth E. Hagin's book, "Zoe, The God-Kind of Life," copyright 1981. It was the foreward to the book, and was a word of prophecy given under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, by Kenneth E. Hagin, 19OCT80, Rhema Bible Church, Tulsa, Oklahoma. The second quote was from a word of prophecy given by Kenneth Copeland, during the 1983 Believer's convention, in Aneheim, California.

"The Lord is now preparing a leadership that will be willing to fight a spiritual civil war in order to set men free. The main issue will be slavery versus freedom. The secondary issue, which will be the primary issue for some, will be money. Just as the American Civil War at times looked like it would destroy the entire nation, what is coming upon the church will at times appear as if it will be the end of the church. However, just as the American nation not only survived, but went on to become the most powerful nation on earth, the same is going to happen to the church. The church will not be destroyed, but the institutions and doctrines that have kept men in spiritual slavery will be." -- Rick Joyner, "The Final Quest."

I believe that the proof of these things coming to pass are demonstrated by the gross spiritual darkness masquarading as light on this and other similar forums. We need to recognize the enemy. I don't mean one another. I mean we need to discern the spirit behind the ones who speak lies with hypocricy, and profess Jesus as proof of their piety. We need to expose these demons, and expel them from our midst. If we don't, we partake of their spirit and it doesn't just want to go along for a ride, sooner or later it is going to want to drive. That is why I can no longer read or respond to ANY posts at +OL. It is not because I am not a free-thinker, or because I am in bondage. It is because I have been set free from bondage, and when it tries to overtake me again, I can discern the enemy and will not partake of it. There is no fear, for I am still a man who loves and prays for every soul I ever encountered here. There is, however, a stark refusal to sup with demons.

I believe that if there were proper prayer leadership and intercessory prayer covering for this forum, that God would be glorified and that His Body would be edified, instead of being ripped to pieces by those who profess love for Jesus, and rip Him apart in the same breath. I also believe that it is never too late to pray and seek God. Even now, if you repent and turn to Him, He will in no wise cast you out. Whosoever will may come to Him. I will. That is why I must go. No one has offended me. I have been called a lot worse by a lot better people. I expect treatment such as I have received here from the world, but to receive it at the hands of someone calling themselves 'Christian,' is often a deeper wound. Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but I have not received many faithful wounds here.

I pray that my words have exposed the deception of the enemy, operating through 'religious' people as well as many secular debaters. The Lord has called me out of this mudpit, and I must obey. I pray for your faith and love, and encourage your growth in the Lord. Seek Him in spirit and in truth. He is Love, His Word is alive, and He speaks to each and every one of us every day, we just rarely take the time to listen for His still, small voice. When we ignore that voice long enough, He will have to perhaps speak a little (one day maybe a LOT) louder. I pray that you hear from Him before He has to repeat Himself.
 

Brother Vinny

New member
Round Ten -- FINAL ROUND!

Round Ten -- FINAL ROUND!

I would first of all like to thank famousGandalf7 for what has been an exhausting and interesting debate. I wish I could add that he was a worthy opponent; I truly expected a more intellectual, Bible-based approach from him, and was sorely disappointed.

Now, famousGandalf7 said something of merit in Round Nine: there is spiritual darkness masquerading as light here on TOL; indeed, in this very battle. "Ye shall know them by their fruits," the Lord Jesus said. Some of the fruits of this present darkness are the elevation of man to deity, the demotion of God, the demand of one's own covenant rights, the twisting of words to mean what they didn't intend to say, the willful ignorance of Scripture to support one's pet doctrines, and the preference over Scripture of the words of man. One need only to glance back at this battle to see these fruits on display.

Maybe the Body of Christ is headed for a civil war. If so, then the Word-Faith Secessionists are destined to lose. Nothing in Scripture warrants the unholy wedding of Christian doctrine to New Thought metaphysics, as the Word-Faith Movement has done. Such a syncretism will always lose to the pure faith.

I doubt such a civil war is imminent, though. I have witnessed (praise God!) a growing number of refugees from the Movement. Some of these have found charismatic churches which are more mainstream. Others have found a home in non-charismatic Bible-believing churches. Some have left religion altogether, embittered by seeing their hopes repeatedly shipwrecked on the rocks of reality. I am even grateful for these, as possessing no gospel is better than possessing a counterfeit. Perhaps one day these will be open to the true gospel; I've seen no such receptivity on the part of those entrenched in the Movement.

It is with sadness that I bid farewell to this "little god" I've wrestled with. I'd believed the best about him from the beginning, accepted him as a fellow believer until I had concrete proof otherwise. Now that he has borne his fruit for all to see, and has not accepted my Scriptural rebuke, I shake my feet of his dust (Mat 10:14).

I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:
--2 Timothy 4:7
 

Aimiel

New member
Goodbye, and Thanks for all the Fish

Goodbye, and Thanks for all the Fish

Heap to yourselves teachers, and they will scratch your ears just the way you like. Then you will be a complete fool, having fooled yourselves into believing that God is yours to command. He that presumes to speak for God, when God has not instructed him to do so speaks his own damnation, even if he is accepted by all the world and told what a great work he has done for God. Those who believe they do God's service and have no idea of Who God is or what He wants them to do are many, and yet they will say, "I follow the written Word of God," all day long. When God speaks, in these latter days, it is to His people who are able to hear His Voice, not those who hide from Him under their 'knowledge' of His Word. When we have the inward witness of the Holy Spirit that someone ought to be heeded, we should listen to them. When we don't, we should get out from under their teaching, lest we become ensnared in their deciet, and end up calling it, "Gospel."

I believe that admitting that what someone has said represents heresy is by no means an admission that all of their ministry needs to be discarded. I also believe that many more people than just I can recognize heresy in someone's preaching, simply by virtue of being a common-sense Christian. I just don't see the Word-Faith movement being heretical or teaching false doctrine at all. Most of the statements cited here have seldom been repeated and often been retracted. I don't think there is a perfect church for Jesus to come back for, yet. I believe there will be, one day; and believe that should be one of our goals. The first goal should be to discern His Voice and to follow Him as closely as possible. I want to see His Face. I hear His Voice in many people, including almost all of the men Paul has tried to defame by this debate.

As far as repentance goes, I don't believe that we are supposed to repent for a moment and walk off about our merry way. I believe that repentance is a way of life, and prefer to keep a contrite heart, which is considered very valuable by God. I may be a poor debater or defender of 'movements,' but have hardly been wounded, much less bloodied or defeated by the replies Paul has posted. A 'holier-than-thou' attitude is something that God and I both hate. The things I have stated have always been to point to His Righteousness, and not my own. The opposite is obvious in each of Paul's posts. His self-righteous deception is clear.

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." -- 2 John 1:7-11

I believe that when we fail to recognize Christ in our fellow-Christians, and devour and defame them, we are doing so to Christ. I cannot say that I have any respect for anyone who does such things and teaches others to do the same. We need to build one another up, not to tear down. The work of Satan makes itself manifest, and is discerned by those who are in communion with the Lord Jesus. The Word of God is very clear on these points, and I have to keep the Word, and not fall to the deceptions of men, following their false doctrines. Hearing God's Voice for ourselves, I mean each and every individual Christian hearing directly from the throne, is the most important lesson that there is, and the church has neglected to teach it to the sheep. This is the reason there is so much confusion among Christians. They have no relationship with God, only 'knowledge,' if that is what you wish to call it. I call it a great tragedy. The Word of Faith is designed to enable Christians to hear from God, personally. The 'River,' movement, which is underway in Toronto, Pensacola and many other places, chronicled in The Remnant is far more significant current 'move' of God, and will soon be eclipsed by the Presence of God, which will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea. Until that day, I pray that every Word God spoke of you before the foundation of the earth should come to pass, and that it would prosper in the thing He sends It to accomplish. Keep the faith. Seek God every day, He wishes to be found.

"Goodbye, and thanks for all the fish." -- The (bottle-nosed) dolphins, as they left earth before it was destroyed by the Vogons, in Douglas Adams' book, "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy."
 
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