Why Nathaniel's "Change of Mind"?

Greek2Me

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Can somebody offer me a reasonable explanation as to how Nathaniel could go so quickly from *“Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” in John 1:46 to “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” only three verses later? It usually takes something pretty substantial to bring about such a radical change of mind in so short a period, and I don't see it here.

Several commentaries speculate that perhaps Nathaniel had been sitting under a nearby tree studying the Scriptures or in prayer earlier in the day and that Jesus had merely glimpsed him there and commented on it. But I hardly think this statement to be sufficient cause to move Nathaniel from such a deep prejudice as to consider anyone from Nazareth to be “from the wrong side of the tracks” (so to speak) to reverently attributing to him a unique relationship to Deity and hailing him as King David's heir!

I have a theory as to what might have changed his opinion of Jesus so completely and quickly, but would like to hear the opinions of others before posting my thoughts on the matter.

Maranatha

RMc
 
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lazaros

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Can it be understood in relation to John 2.1-11, the very next pericope? There are several threads in the story which suggest this. I think characteristically bloodless exegesis of many scholars which imagines Nathanael 'under the fig tree' studying the scriptures says more about the exegetes than the text itself. When taken in relation to the miracle story, Transformation of Water into Wine, we have a different portrait/cameo of Nathanael. One which links him to the meaning of that event in the same way that Andrew and Phillip are linked later to The Feeding of the Five Thousand. These 'eucharistic' miracles remain enigmatic, but essential to a proper eucharistic theology.
They are misunderstood and neglected by the vast majority of commentators. 'Under the fig tree' suggests - in keeping with the central subject of the miracle narrative - the second creation story. Both 'tree' and 'fig' are give aways. In this respect, it confirms the link to the miracle story.
 

Greek2Me

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I would also think that reading ahead in the narrative and bringing it back into the antecedent phrase also speaks more of the exegete than the exegesis. How could the wedding at Cana have anything to do with Nathaniel's change of mind several days PRIOR to the subsequent miracle, no matter HOW amazing it was? No mention is made as in Luke 24, "They remembered His words..." where the author clearly links the previous events to the latter remembering. No, John is strictly narrating in chronological order the events as they occurred. Nathaniel spoke, Jesus replied, Nathaniel believed. Straightforward and simple. So why did Nathaniel do an "about face"?

There was SOMETHING in the statement of Jesus AT THAT MOMENT that so impacted Nathaniel (without influence of later events) as to cause the apostle-to-be to switch from demeaning anybody who hailed from Nazareth to openly confessing that he was "the one Moses and the Prophets wrote about", as Phillip had done when he first invited his friend to meet Jesus (John 1:45).

Why was only the fact that Jesus had "seen him previously under the fig tree" sufficient to change Nathaniel's prejudice against all Nazarenes in only a few moments?
 

RBBI

New member
I believe it's because it was because He couldn't have seen him with natural eyes and Nathaniel knew it, and so knew that only the Messiah would be able to see as G-d sees. Yeshua seems to bear this witness by His statement that he would see greater miracles (meaning it WAS supernatural) than this.
 

lazaros

New member
How could the wedding at Cana have anything to do with Nathaniel's change of mind several days PRIOR to the subsequent miracle, no matter HOW amazing it was?

There are several words plays at work. 'Play' is here the operative word, because in the later episode to which I referred, John 6.6-7, the mood is the same, one of conviviality:

Then Jesus, when he looked up 6 and saw that a large crowd was coming to him, said to Philip, “Where can we buy bread so that these people may eat?” (Now Jesus said this to test him, for he knew what he was going to do.)

'Test' here is the same as the word translated 'tempt'; so e.g. in Mark 1.13 πειραζόμενος - refer to Satan tempting Jesus. Time mood is playful as it is in all three of these 'eucharistic' miracles.

But the real word plays in this text engage 'seeing' and 'good'. I said previously that the 'fig tree' image refers back to the second creation story. Here is the serpent, (not Satan note), testing the man and the woman:

The serpent said to the woman, “Surely you will not die, for God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will open and you will be like divine beings who know good and evil.”
When the woman saw that the tree produced fruit that was good for food, was attractive to the eye, and was desirable for making one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate it. She also gave some of it to her husband who was with her, and he ate it. 7Then the eyes of both of them opened, and they knew they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. (emphasis added).

Now look and see how remarkably the same compact between seeing and the value judgement, good, plays out in the Nathanael-Jesus exchange:

Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 4Philip found tNathanael and said to him, “We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus vof Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” 4Nathanael said to him, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” Philip said to him, “Come and see.” Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!” Nathanael said to him, “How do you know me?” Jesus answered him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” 51And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.” (The Greek for you is plural; twice in this verse)

The miracle story is about what exactly - erotic love, for which the trope is wine, since it is not only 'good' - “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.” - but intoxicating, in both senses of the word, good and bad. ... etc.

Do you begin to see why I said what I said? How else do you interpret the context of the story? This refers to the calling of young - virile obviously - men to discipleship. They weren't bloodless aged exegetes living in their dotage. The context frames the whole issue of sexual appetition-satisfaction in relation to discipleship. Something very similar occurs in the early stages of Mark:
Now John’s disciples and the Pharisees were fasting; and people came and said to him, ‘Why do John’s disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?’ Jesus said to them, ‘The wedding-guests cannot fast while the bridegroom is with them, can they? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast on that day.

‘No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old cloak; otherwise, the patch pulls away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear is made. And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost, and so are the skins; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins.’

The only other time we hear of Nathanael is in John chapter 21, which tells us he was from Cana in Galilee, the mise-en-scene of the miracle/wedding. Was It Nathanael's own wedding? Very probably?

So finally,what was going on under the fig-tree, given the plural You, and everything else I have laboured to point out? Use your imagination. What startles me is the absence of psychological awareness that the exegetes to whom I referred bring to the text. There are many ensuing narratives which comply with this hermeneutic, the last of which is the story of Jesus and the Samaritan woman, in which the figure six recurs twice. (Six is a fundamental hermeneutical cipher in the 'miracle' story, just as Nathanael is the sixth disciple called, if we include Mary the mother of Jesus, who is listed as present at the wedding. Nathanael is most often identified with the Bartholomew of the synoptic lists, the sixth figure in the same.)

Now do you get it? The miracle is 'sexual love' - a miracle in the given sense that we all respond to it in the same way, the way imagined in the miracle narrative, and a miracle also because by means of it the word is made flesh.
 

Greek2Me

New member
I don't understand why you think Jesus "...couldn't have seen him with natural eyes." Nathaniel and Jesus were both "in the neighborhood", so to speak and Phillip brought them together. Why do you suppose Jesus couldn't have seen him sitting under a tree earlier in the day? It's not implausible or unreasonable. And if he happened to glance in Nathaniel's direction, and later revealed that He had done so, why would that change Nathaniel's "dim view" of Nazarenes?
 

Greek2Me

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Lazaros: IMHO, you have gone to such effort and so far afield from my original question, it's really not worth continuing your line of thought.

Be well.
 

Greek2Me

New member
I would really hope that one individuals long,and (IMHO) flawed and unrelated post would not dissuade serious student of scripture from responding and/or contributing their thoughts and studies as well.

Last call; What would have caused Nathan to change his mind so quickly and radically about the man from Nazareth? Any SERIOUS insights?

Maranatha
 

jamie

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LIFETIME MEMBER
There was SOMETHING in the statement of Jesus AT THAT MOMENT that so impacted Nathaniel (without influence of later events) as to cause the apostle-to-be to switch from demeaning anybody who hailed from Nazareth

I don't believe Nathaniel's question about the King coming from Nazareth was meant to be demeaning. It had long been understood that the King would come from Bethlehem.

How many references are there to Nazareth in the Hebrew Bible?
 

Greek2Me

New member
The important thing is Nathaniels comment in the original Greek, best translated as "Nazareth??? Can ANY good thing come from there?" The word order emphasized his apparent contempt for the little "backwater town" which is what Nazareth was considered at the time. But something happened and stemmed from Jesus statement that he had "seen him under the fig tree". Why would this cause a Jew to INSTANTLY acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah whom Israel had anticipated for hundreds of years? I have a theory, but would like to hear the thoughts of others before presenting my position on the matter.
 

Greek2Me

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New testament references to Nazareth are not kind either, it is said of them that Jesus could not work miracles there because of their "lack of faith" (Mark 6:6) and when he preached on the Isaiah passage in their synagogue, they dragged Him out to a cliff to throw Him off of it! (Lu 4:29) Seems like they had a low opinion of prophets during Jesus lifetime.
 

jamie

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LIFETIME MEMBER
How many verses are there in the Hebrew Bible that refer to the King of Israel coming from Nazareth?

How many times is Nazareth mentioned in the Hebrew Bible?
 

Greek2Me

New member
There are NO references at all to Nazareth in the Old Testament, it is possible that the town did not exist at all before Roman times. But at the time of Christ it obviously DID exist, and was looked down upon by all the surrounding inhabitants. Some sources say it was because of the generally "unscrupulous nature" if the inhabitants, while others mention that the Romans maintained a sort of garrison/prison there, and most shunned the area because of the presence of soldiers and criminals. Nathaniel's initial comment seems to support this general disdain for the town. But my questions remains; what about the "fig tree" comment was so powerful as to reverse his negative opinion of a man from Nazareth?
 

Greek2Me

New member
I had hoped to here find a forum where I could exchange serious views and bible study with like minded Christians, and so left the initial post regarding Nathan's sudden “change of mind”.

Having surprisingly received very little response, and somewhat discouraged by one individuals lengthy attempt to present a personal (and soundly unbiblical) agenda,, I now present my findings regarding the passage in the hopes that some Christian (or perhaps pastor?) will benefit and pass it on.

To restate my original thought: It always puzzled me how one of the men who would become a disciple of Christ progressed from his initial opinion of Jesus (whom he hadn't yet met) as hardly worth consideration since, “Nothing good can come from Nazareth!” (Jn 1:46) but later he declared Him to be “...the Son of God and the King of Israel!”. And apparently he made that transition in a very short period of time and solely because Jesus expressed that He had “...seen [him] earlier under a fig tree.” How could those few words POSSIBLY have made the difference?

First, let me dare to disagree with the many commentaries who offer “perhaps Jesus had seen him earlier as he meditated on the Scriptures and prayed under a tree.”. So what? I don't see how the yet-to-be disciple would have concluded that the rabbi knew what he was doing simply because He saw him from a distance. There had to be something else behind the phrase, “I saw you under the fig tree.” If you are willing to entertain what I believe are two reasonable assumptions, you may come to agree with me as to just what that “something” was...

First, can we agree that everyone involved was pretty much a “local boy”? They all grew up within 25 miles of each other, Jesus in Nazareth, while Phillip, Andrew and Peter were all from Bethsaida. We aren't told until John 21:2 that Nathaniel was from Cana, roughly halfway between the other two towns. (Note that, like Jesus, it is possible that he grew UP there, but may not have been BORN there. More on this later. Note also that Bethlehem is only about 40 miles south, and hold onto that thought.)

Secondly, would it be unreasonable to say that they were all about the same age? Somehow I've always imagined Matthew to the be “old man” among the group, and Thomas “the baby”, with the remainder of them spread out from early thirties to perhaps forty? I have no definitive information on that, but allow me that Jesus and Nathaniel are roughly the same age, say thirty years old at this time.

Here's where it gets interesting. How many of you have used Halley's Bible Handbook? Or a Strong's Concordance? Or even ventured back into classic christian literature for information not specifically spelled out in Scripture, but provides "background insight" into the Word. The Bible never says what happened to Paul, but “tradition” tells us that he was beheaded for his faith in Rome sometime around 62-64 A.D. And tradition (not Scripture) also informs us that Peter was crucified “upside down”, and many accept this as true.

Consider another source: In 1868 J. Payne Smith first published his “Thesaurus Syriacus” (Syrian Dictionary), to aid students of Scripture who read Syriac versions of the Bible. An accomplished theologian, he was the Dean of Canterbury in the Church of England, and for the next 40 years he revised his dictionary nearly 30 times, including various explanatory notes and examples. (Sadly, one fault for which he was criticized by his peers was his frequent failure to note his sources, making it difficult for others to verify his work.) But there can be no doubt that he diligently researched, found and included information from the most obscure regions and documents throughout Syria (Palestine).

Which brings us to my take on Nathaniel's “changed mind”. Smiths Thesaurus contains only ONE sentence regarding the disciple-to-be, and it is this, “Nathaniel, who's mother hid him under a fig tree when the infants were slain.” It is unknown where he found this obscure detail but, if true, that single line may hold the key to Nathaniel's sudden “about face”.

What if the “infants” mentioned in Smith's volume were those whom Herod had massacred in his attempt to find the One for whom the wise men were also seeking? And what if Nathaniel's birthplace was very near to Bethlehem? While Mary and Joseph fled to Egypt, what could the mother of Nathaniel do? Perhaps the only thing she could do as she heard solders searching nearby homes for infants was to place her child, much as Moses' mother had, wrapped in a blanket, sleeping in a basket and safely under a tree where she could retrieve him after the danger had passed. And if this were the case, would she not have related to him as he grew up how his life had been spared when all the other local boys were slain? Would this not be “just our little secret”, between a mother and her son?

And now, along comes Jesus. When Nathaniel asked (paraphrased), “Have we met before???”, the teacher replied, “I saw you under the fig tree!” Keep in mind, Jesus was HIMSELF an infant (under two years old), so hardly aware of what was going on at other homes on down the road. And yet He KNEW! How COULD He know??? Unless... perhaps...He is...

Get it? If Jesus knew something personal about Nathaniel, something that NO ONE knew, and no one COULD know, then He HAD to be coming by this insight through divine sources! Certainly THAT be sufficient to cause this Jew to have his eyes suddenly opened to the fact that the man standing before Him was the long awaited Messiah and King of Israel. I know that would certainly change MY mind.

Thoughts?
 

Greek2Me

New member
Wouldn't Nathaniels infancy count as "before Phillip called you?

Do you have a better explanation? I've been waiting for several days, but... crickets! lol
 

Greek2Me

New member
I don't see why not. To one who has "existed from eternity", the few years between the event I've proposed (based on Smith's comment) and the introduction by Phillip would be as only a short time. It is not unreasonable for Jesus to see it as "just a little while back", yet to Nathaniel it would have been CLEAR evidence (FAR more than "I saw you praying this afternoon...") that this man had divine insight, not only into his "guileless nature", but into every detail about him as well.

But let me agree (temporarily) with your position, for arguments sake. What then is YOUR explanation as to why Nathaniel change his mind? I've heard nothing that speaks to the original question.
 

jamie

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LIFETIME MEMBER
I don't see why not.

Nathanael said to Him, “How do You know me?”

Jesus answered and said to him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” (John 1:48)​

It seems like you are suggesting almost thirty years elapsed between Philip calling him and Jesus seeing him.
 

Lon

Well-known member
1) This section allows all input, not just Christians, so realize there is an exclusively Christian section, and that some of your lack of response is because we generally don't see the "religious" section as scholastically biblical conversation. 2) I believe you correct, if not for your specific observation, but for generally surmising that Jesus was explaining something from omnipresence and divine foreknowledge. Those of us who are Triune, also believe it clearly reveals His deity. -Lon
 
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