Whom do you follow?

God's Truth

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I) Concerning your father:
Jesus – Matt 23:9
Paul – 1 Cor 4:15, Phlm 1:10

Paul never tells anyone to call him 'father'.

Paul was explaining that he was among the Apostles, one among the few people who gave the gospel message. Paul was not reading from books or letters about the gospel, nor was he being taught first by Peter and the others, but the Holy Spirit taught Paul, and had those letters and books written that we now read in the Bible.
Paul, as a person who got the message before others, in this he was like a father for being before the others. However, Paul does not say to call him ‘father’, and there is nowhere in the Bible where anyone calls Paul ‘father’.

Paul never told anyone to call him father. Paul was saying that Timothy was like family, they were like a father and son. See Philippians 2:22.

Paul calls Timothy BROTHER:

1 Thessalonians 3:2 We sent Timothy, who is our brother and co-worker in God's service in spreading the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith,

2 Corinthians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God in Corinth, together with all the saints throughout Achaia:

Colossians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

Paul calls Titus BROTHER:

2 Corinthians 2:13 I still had no peace of mind, because I did not find my brother Titus there. So I said goodbye to them and went on to Macedonia.


Paul is called BROTHER:


2 Peter 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.


Acts 9:17
So Ananias went to the house, and when he arrived, he placed his hands on Saul. "Brother Saul," he said, "the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here, has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
 

God's Truth

New member
J) Concerning the commandments and eternal life:
Jesus – Matt 19:17
Paul – Rom 7:9-10

Paul was explaining what it was like to keep the old law without faith.

The old law was not based on faith.

There were Jews who obeyed and had faith, and there were Jews who had a hard time obeying because they did not have faith.

Galatians 3:12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."
 

Lazy afternoon

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LIFETIME MEMBER
The Old Testament purification/ceremonial works were a shadow, a teaching tool of what was coming. Jesus Christ is what was coming.

Jesus is the last sacrifice, the sacrificial Lamb of God.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I reject Paul, and I follow and imitate Jesus.

The Lord Jesus made it plain that He was "not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Mt.15:24). He also said this:

"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews" (Jn.4:22).​

Why would the Lord say that? Well, that is what the OT prophecies reveal:

"Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you...Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor" (Isa.55:3,5).​

When Israel's New Covenant will be in force the Gentiles will saved as a result to the agency of the nation of Israel. Certainly this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled because at the present time the nation of Israel has not been endowed with splendor by the LORD.

The following prophecy also reveals that when Israel's New Covenant will be in force the Gentiles will be saved as a result of the agency of the Jews:

"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:8,13,23).​

It is evident these prophecies are not now being fulfilled. Despite that fact millions upon millions of people have come to the knowledge of the Savior, Jesus Christ. Here Paul explains how that has happened:

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" (Ro.11:11-12).​

Since the nation of Israel rejected her promised Messiah the LORD would not let her unbelief stand in the way of Gentile salvation so He converted Paul in order to make Him the Apostle of the Gentiles. And we are to also to be the agents to bring the knowledge of the Lord Jesus to the world:

"And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor.5:18-21).​
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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The Lord Jesus made it plain that He was "not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Mt.15:24). He also said this:

"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews" (Jn.4:22).​

Why would the Lord say that? Well, that is what the OT prophecies reveal:

"Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you...Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor" (Isa.55:3,5).​

When Israel's New Covenant will be in force the Gentiles will saved as a result to the agency of the nation of Israel. Certainly this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled because at the present time the nation of Israel has not been endowed with splendor by the LORD.

The following prophecy also reveals that when Israel's New Covenant will be in force the Gentiles will be saved as a result of the agency of the Jews:

"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:8,13,23).​

It is evident these prophecies are not now being fulfilled. Despite that fact millions upon millions of people have come to the knowledge of the Savior, Jesus Christ. Here Paul explains how that has happened:

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" (Ro.11:11-12).​

Since the nation of Israel rejected her promised Messiah the LORD would not let her unbelief stand in the way of Gentile salvation so He converted Paul in order to make Him the Apostle of the Gentiles. And we are to also be the agents to bring the knowledge of the Lord Jesus to the world:

"And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor.5:18-21).​

Good post.
 

God's Truth

New member
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

That is right. We do that by not sinning and by doing what Jesus says. We no longer have to get circumcised, do an external washing if we had a discharge or sat where someone else sat who had a discharge. We no longer have to adhere to dietary laws and observe special days. We do not have to sacrifice animals for their blood to clean us of our sins. We do have to obey Jesus' teachings, and his teachings can be found in the New Testament.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
The Lord Jesus made it plain that He was "not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Mt.15:24). He also said this:

"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews" (Jn.4:22).​

Why would the Lord say that? Well, that is what the OT prophecies reveal:

"Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you...Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor" (Isa.55:3,5).​

When Israel's New Covenant will be in force the Gentiles will saved as a result to the agency of the nation of Israel. Certainly this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled because at the present time the nation of Israel has not been endowed with splendor by the LORD.

The following prophecy also reveals that when Israel's New Covenant will be in force the Gentiles will be saved as a result of the agency of the Jews:

"And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:8,13,23).​

It is evident these prophecies are not now being fulfilled. Despite that fact millions upon millions of people have come to the knowledge of the Savior, Jesus Christ. Here Paul explains how that has happened:

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" (Ro.11:11-12).​

Since the nation of Israel rejected her promised Messiah the LORD would not let her unbelief stand in the way of Gentile salvation so He converted Paul in order to make Him the Apostle of the Gentiles. And we are to also to be the agents to bring the knowledge of the Lord Jesus to the world:

"And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor.5:18-21).​


All lies.

Peter was the first to go to the gentiles.

and Paul never ceased to go to the Jews first.

The new covenant is in force now.

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I reject Paul, and I follow and imitate Jesus.

Greetings Jack! Here is something which the Lord Jesus commanded His disciples to do:

"Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not"
(Mt.23:1-3).​

Do you follow that commandment of the Lord Jesus? By the way, where do you find those who sit in Moses' seat?

Thanks!
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
All lies.

Why do you revert to this kind of behavior? Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them a liar. How would you feel if your character was questioned every time someone disagrees with what you say? You wouldn't like it so please cool it.
Peter was the first to go to the gentiles.

Yes, but after that he agreed to to limit his ministry to the Jews:

"And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision" (Gal.1:9).​

The new covenant is in force now.

Here is a prophecy which describes what will happen when the New Covenant is in effect:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more"
(Jer.31:31-34).​

First, we can understand that those who will belong to the houses of Israel and Judah will be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That is because their "fathers" were the ones who broke the Lord's covenant and those people were the physical descendants of Jacob. Therefore, since their "fathers" are the physical descendants of Jacob then that must mean that that they will also be the physical descendants of Jacob.

Next, we can understand that all of the physical descendants of Jacob which will belong to both houses will know the Lord, "from the least of them unto the greatest of them," and they will all have their sins forgiven.

There has never been a time when all of the physical descendants of Jacob belonging to the house of Israel and the house of Jacob have had their sins forgiven. Therefore, the New Covenant promised to those two houses is not now in effect.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Let us look at this verse:

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" (Heb.9:15; KJV).​

The words "New Testament" refer to the "Last Will and Testament" of the Lord Jesus and a "Last Will and Testament" speaks of an "inheritance," i.e. "the promise of eternal inheritance." Also, the context makes it plain that it is indeed a "Last Will and Testament" which is in view:

"For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth" (Heb.9:16-17).​

It is a "Last Will and Testament" described here because a "will" does not go into effect until the testator dies.

Matthew Henry wrote, "The solemn transactions between God and man, are sometimes called a covenant, here a testament which is a willing deed of a person, bestowing legacies on such persons as are described, and it only takes effect upon his death" (Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary, Commentary at Hebrews 9:16-17).
 
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Lazy afternoon

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Why do you revert to this kind of behavior? Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them a liar. How would you feel if your character was questioned every time someone disagrees with what you say? You wouldn't like it so please cool it.

I did not call you a liar.

Do not talk down to me and twist what I had said just so you can appear something you are not.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.



Yes, but after that he agreed to to limit his ministry to the Jews:

"And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision" (Gal.1:9).​

No such limit is stated or implied in the verse.



Here is a prophecy which describes what will happen when the New Covenant is in effect:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more"
(Jer.31:31-34).​

First, we can understand that those who will belong to the houses of Israel and Judah will be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That is because their "fathers" were the ones who broke the Lord's covenant and those people were the physical descendants of Jacob. Therefore, since their "fathers" are the physical descendants of Jacob then that must mean that that they will also be the physical descendants of Jacob.

Next, we can understand that all of the physical descendants of Jacob which will belong to both houses will know the Lord, "from the least of them unto the greatest of them," and they will all have their sins forgiven.

There has never been a time when all of the physical descendants of Jacob belonging to the house of Israel and the house of Jacob have had their sins forgiven. Therefore, the New Covenant promised to those two houses is not now in effect.



Let us look at this verse:

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" (Heb.9:15; KJV).​

The words "New Testament" refer to the "Last Will and Testament" of the Lord Jesus and a "Last Will and Testament" speaks of an "inheritance," i.e. "the promise of eternal inheritance." Also, the context makes it plain that it is indeed a "Last Will and Testament" which is in view:

"For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth" (Heb.9:16-17).​

It is a "Last Will and Testament" described here because a "will" does not go into effect until the testator dies.

Matthew Henry wrote, "The solemn transactions between God and man, are sometimes called a covenant, here a testament which is a willing deed of a person, bestowing legacies on such persons as are described, and it only takes effect upon his death" (Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary, Commentary at Hebrews 9:16-17).

Christ had died and the believers began to inherit after His resurrection----

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

If you have never been filled with the Holy Spirit as they did in Acts,then you have not inherited anything through Jesus death.

LA
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I did not call you a liar.

You quoted me and then said that what I wrote is a "lie." So according to you I lied and therefore that makes me a liar. And that is not the first time you have attempted to assassinate my character. Therefore, I will cease from discussing anything with you because you prove that you are unable to have a civil discussion.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
You quoted me and then said that what I wrote is a "lie." So according to you I lied and therefore that makes me a liar. And that is not the first time you have attempted to assassinate my character. Therefore, I will cease from discussing anything with you because you prove that you are unable to have a civil discussion.

If you do not know the difference between calling your post full of lies and calling you a liar, then you can not engage in a truthful conversation without getting offended.

You have been unable to answer truthfully from the scriptures to my last post, and you know it.

LA
 
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