Who will be in Charge of the Everlasting Torturing in the Eternal Hell?
- Thread starter KerimF
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oatmeal
Well-known member
There is no everlasting torture for anyone anywhere
There is a second death for everyone that lived who are the unjust
The unjust in being confronted by God and His son Jesus Christ will be fully aware of what they will miss because they rejected God is their punishment..
They will die the second death knowing fully how bad a choice they made
Their own evil will be the source of their own self destruction
Considering that "torture" is the wrong word, not used by the Bible...
Can someone be tormented (the word actually used in the Bible) without there being an external cause?
What is the need for a second death?
After the first death, one's flesh just returns to the state of void, the state before its birth (if not the state before Creation).
Jesus used a simple clear expression for this fact: "Everlasting Fire".
In fact, when someone realizes that he has things which cannot be useful anymore and in anyway, he just burns them at a very high temperature to let them return to their 'raw state.
In other words, "Everlasting Fire" is the opposite of "Everlasting Life"; 'not to exist forever' versus 'to exist forever'.
But if someone had the chance to live on earth the divine Love towards all others, as Jesus revealed and lived it even with a living human flesh, he would perceive, in his soul, the joy of God's Love, here in the physical realm then in God's Realm after the death of his flesh, How this could be possible, speaking logically, will be for anther thread
You are right. Truth be said, I deliberately used the word 'torture' for being much more attractive than the soft word 'punishment'.
My question was addressed to those who like believing that God prepared already an eternal place/realm much like the hell of Islam in which the infidels will be punished (if not tortured) for eternity.
If it happened you read my previous post #4, you would notice that 'hell' is, to me in the least, like fire that returns back something to its raw state; or to the state of void in case of a human who lost his soul (the parable of the sower).
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oatmeal
Well-known member
What is the need for a second death?
After the first death, one's flesh just returns to the state of void, the state before its birth (if not the state before Creation).
Jesus used a simple clear expression for this fact: "Everlasting Fire".
In fact, when someone realizes that he has things which cannot be useful anymore and in anyway, he just burns them at a very high temperature to let them return to their 'raw state.
In other words, "Everlasting Fire" is the opposite of "Everlasting Life"; 'not to exist forever' versus 'to exist forever'.
But if someone had the chance to live on earth the divine Love towards all others, as Jesus revealed and lived it even with a living human flesh, he would perceive, in his soul, the joy of God's Love, here in the physical realm then in God's Realm after the death of his flesh, How this could be possible, speaking logically, will be for anther thread
What is the reason that God gives for the second death?
The everlasting fire in reference to the Gehenna, the place where carrion is disposed of is everlasting because it lasts as long as there is trash to burn.
Have you ever burned trash before?
There is no reason to continue the fire after all is burned up
It lasts ever as long as there is something to burn
Death is the opposite of life
Fires happen regardless whether or not life or death is near
When people reject God they reject life love and all God's goodness
Since they don't want God, God let's them do that and they reap what they sowed
They reject life they get death
Well said.
It seems to me that, to you, it is necessary for God to resurrect, at the end of times, 'all' humans so that some of them will stay alive in God's Realm while the rest will die again, but for good this time.
To me, being alive again to die for the second time is simply not necessary since they were already in the state of void.
By the way, if I couldn't find a logical/real answer about how I may join God's Realm after the death of my mortal living flesh, I couldn't see clearly the end purpose for which God (the One Will/power of the Father in Heaven, not incarnated, and Jesus, incarnated, unified, since before Creation, by the divine Spirit of Love, the Holy Spirit) brought me into this temporarily life.
oatmeal
Well-known member
God did not consult me to determine what He would do in the future and why
Did He consult any of His creation?
Does God need a counselor?
There shall be a resurrection of the just first, then a resurrection of the unjust
The unjust will face the perfect justice of God and die the second death to live no more
Thus they will have experienced that eternal torment that are doomed to never experience God's eternal goodness and kindness
You are right.
True God (F&J unified by HS), as revealed by Jesus, doesn't need neither a counselor nor anything else from His creatures.
But it happened that I met many persons who don't mind believing that their God does need from them a lot of things and He, therefore, sent them a list of his needs (God's Law).
Anyway, every human is free to see his God in a way which is convenient for him (this depends on many factors in one's life).
You said: "They are doomed to never experience God's eternal goodness and kindness".
But before they were brought by God into the world in which we are now, they were not able experiencing God's eternal goodness and kindness. And when they will return back to their state of void, the end result for them is as if they didn't exist in the first place.
In God's plan (made by true love), there will be no losers (losing what someone has for free is not a loss!), there will be just winners though few (those who were able to live God's Love towards all others as revealed and lived by Jesus). Only the joy of living God's Love is eternal, anything else is of the physical world which will vanish sooner or later.
Please note, I am not saying you are wrong. What is good for me doesn't necessarily be good to all others. But I would fool myself if I ignore whatever I perceive in me just because some others don't perceive it as I do.
Even in science, I take advantage of many solutions which I had the chance to discover. Should I ignore them because the scientific Elite say they cannot exist?
The correct term is everlasting torment.
So you didn't mind knowing that our Creator liked to watch a game (perhaps He was bored). So He created a huge universe and allowed us, the human species, to exist on Earth; on one of the zillion planets. And to let His game be real exiting, our Creator gifted us (unlike all other creatures) the Free Will and set a list of rules to be observed by the players (us). Then, He tell us:
"Let Me see who among you will be able to please Me by obeying My rules, besides glorifying Me, and who will deserve My wrath and torment."
I personally don't see Jesus telling us about a game but about God's Love. But this doesn't prevent that God's Love could be also seen by the majority of humans as God's Game. The reason is simple. Obeying rules is much easier than living the unconditional lawless love towards all others, even enemies, as revealed and lived by Jesus.
So whoever chooses to obey rules (since it is easy), he has to also believe that his Creator is just One Supernatural Being playing the role of the Supreme Ruler/King (much like on earth).
Only rare humans around the world are able to live Jesus Love and perceive the power of the divine spirit of Love, the Holy Spirit which unifies the will/power of two independent beings in the spiritual Realm; in Heaven and on Earth as well.
Please note, it is okay if you can't get what I say. After all, you have to live the way you are used to
So, not just ignorance, but willful ignorance...
And even worse, plain dishonesty.
This is what the Bible teaches.
Or, to phrase it more accurately:
God made man with the ability to choose Him or to reject Him. God is not a sadist. He is healthy, reasonable, and recognizes that keeping people with Him for all of eternity who hate Him would be unhealthy, sadistic, and evil. The consequence of rejecting God, sin, is death. Death is separation. So, God will allow those who ultimately reject Him to live apart from Him for eternity, should they choose to reject Him. This separation is what is called Hell, and eventually the Lake of Fire.
The punishment for rebelling against God is separation. We call this separation Hell/the Lake of Fire.
Are you muslim?
I noticed you didn't actually answer my question, so allow me to ask it again:
Can someone be tormented (the word actually used in the Bible) without there being an external cause?
When you intentionally twist what the Bible says, you end up with a distorted view of who God is.
God created because He wanted to create.
God created man not for His amusement, not because He wanted to make a game, but to have a relationship with man.
God gave man the ability to choose between God or rebelling against Him.
God predetermined that those who choose Him will live with Him for eternity, and that those who choose to rebel against Him will not live with Him.
When God made man, He didn't give them a list (per se), but He gave them three rules, to have dominion over the earth, to be fruitful and multiply, and to not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and it is the latter that represents law, throughout the Bible, and the law is what will condemn those who rebel against God. In other words, the third command was don't partake of the law.
As i said in my previous post, the consequence of rebelling against God, is death, and so the punishment is separation, because the wages of sin is death, and death is separation.
Your premise is flawed, and thus I reject your argument.
Your premise is that love is completely separate from the law.
The reality, as stated a few times in the Bible, is that love fulfills the law. If you truly love God and your neighbors, you will never violate His law.
Sorry, but that just doesn't follow.
This sounds more like "New Age" nonsense, another perversion of what the Bible says.
Please note, it is okay if you can't get what I say. After all, you have to live the way you are used to
In other words, "live the way you think is right"?
WRONG.
Find out what IS right, and live that.
Like forever rising smoke?
"Edom's streams will be turned into pitch, her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch! It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again.” Is. 34:10
A forever rising smoke still rising today? or maybe a smoke that rises until it is no more?
Oh and:
Rev 14:10 "...will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger... and...will be tormented with fire and brimstone... in the presence of the Lamb.”
or
“pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord” 2 Thess. 1:9
Which is it?
An everlasting torment right where the Lamb is so every time we go to see Him..."hey there's grandma...still tormenting"
An eternal destructing?
or
an eternal destruction...having been destroyed in the presence of the Lamb...that one time...
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God is not the God of the dead. So no one is in charge. It runs by itself and naturally the most powerful and most evil shall rule, who is Satan.
That said. This universe is not a natural environment. It is God-made. The question boils down to what is lying outside of our universe, possibly filled with heat and energy (scientifically).
How could I answer it if, as I perceive my Creator, no one will be tormented for not obeying God's Law, on earth and after death?
By saying yes or no.
It's a yes or no question, Kerim.
if, as I perceive my Creator, no one will be tormented for not obeying God's Law, on earth and after death?
I'm talking about torment in general, without there being an external cause. Why is that so hard for you to answer?
Can someone be tormented without there being an external cause for that torment?
right...He is God of the LIVING...as the dead are dead...know nothing...can not praise Him...they are dead...as you were before your father's seed found your mother's egg...void...
He is not a God of confusion and there is hierarchy and order in ALL...
wow seriously...Satan lives for ever now too? Ruling? there is only One Immortal...there is NO OHER...we are mortals in need of the tree of life...once that was removed we DIE...never immortal never sustained as spirits/souls...beware the One who can and will destroy the soul...
Satan and Death itself are cast into the fire consumed destroyed NO MORE...SIN IS NO MORE...you can not have it over there being refined burning present in the torment of eternal fires...or in the presence of His throne...how awkward would that be? Do we love Him freely or NOT to be like those there tormenting who didn't...add to that some were made just to burn as examples...predestined to burn forever?
So He controls what is inside this universe but not what Satan has out there? yikes...that outside the universe burning is in the presence of the Lamb...in a pit...
Could it be that what is scientifically heat light and energy is Spirit you know...the IMMORTAL ONE...which burns like a fire...refining all who come nearer to Him to LIVE and to LOVE and enjoy life...and Satan just inverses His eternal fire into something that poisons our relationship forever...an eternal punishing...tormenting forever a decision made at even 10 years of age...or younger...poor illiterate parents were TERRIFIED their infants were going to be tortured for ever...by the very One who claims to love them...
Can ANY who are TERRIFIED of ETERNAL DAMNATION truly choose to love with a free will unbiased?
Go reread Job...chapter 1:16 where the fire of God from the heavens is alleged to have fallen... but of course it's from Satan...and Satan knows that we are threatened by pain chapter 2:4 and still uses this trick...how many millions of people were HORRIFIED and TERRIFIED into the church its eternal threat successfully reaping them in?
as if its Love Me or else...not according to my scriptures... HalleluYah...
Sorry, I can't imagine that my Creator was/is lonely or bored to the point He decided to have a relationship with man, including me. I wonder what kind of relationship is!
I am afraid that this is exactly what the earthly selfish kings/dictators expect from their slaves.
Sorry, Muslims and Jews are supposed to see God in this image, not me.
Of course, whoever cannot, for one reason or another, live the unconditional lawless Love, as revealed and lived by Jesus, has no real joy in himself and, therefore, has no place in God's Realm of Love, on earth and after death.
This was important till Jesus revealed God's Love which supersedes God's Law. The most important role of God's Prophets was to prepare, by God's Law, a chosen people so that they will be ready to welcome Jesus. Jesus confirmed this truth in {Matthew 11:11} since it is the role of John the Baptist whom Jesus called the greatest Prophet.
"so the punishment is separation"! What about Atheists who didn't have the chance to hear of God in the first place? Aren't they, in this respect, more fortunate than those who heard of God?
Oh great! I hope you are right and the Jewish law on the OT also says as Jesus did:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"
I wonder if the Jews/Israelis who were exported to Middle East can live God's Love and fulfil, therefore, God's Law, though most of them likely observe God's Law very well.
A truth which is ignored by all formal believers is that "Only an Independent Human may love his enemies". If Jesus wasn't independent when He forgave His killers (though He had all the means to apply world's Justice on them), He would be a Traitor.
For example, if an Israeli loving person didn't mind taking care of an enemy of Israel, as Jesus says, he would be seen, according to God's Law, as an enemy of God
So I am very sorry for not being able to perceive the ancient God's Law and Jesus Love as you do.
Whenever there is a law (a set of well-defined rules) to be observed and followed, there is a powerful Ruler; surely not a true loving father sharing his life with his beloved sons.
You gave me a new hint. Jesus was crucified as if He were a dangerous criminal because His message of LOVE, to be lived on earth as in Heaven, was seen as being 'New Age', hence nonsense and threatening, therefore, the LAW.
I did find out what is right and live it.
I mean; I obey Caesar's rules as long they don't stop me live the unconditional Love towards all others (with no exceptions), as revealed and lived by Jesus Christ.
So I hope you also did find out what is right and live it
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oatmeal
Well-known member
Actually, torment does include torture
- to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
- to question by applying torture
- to torture
- to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
- to be harassed, distressed
- of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
And for that matter, could you show me where the phrase, "everlasting torment" is found in scripture?