ECT Who is not saved?

[meshak]

Marhig,

Can a person love their neighbor but not love God?

If you love God you will listen to Jesus because God told us to listen to Him. He gave Jesus authority to be our Lord and Savior.

Sorry I butted in. This was so easy to explain.

 

[meshak]

We can do the same works as Jesus Christ's and greater.

It is not your call to self claim you are doing the same works and doing greater than Jesus.

We need to watch out of our egoistic claims.

 

[oatmeal]

Receiving the gift of eternal life is receiving the Holy Spirit, he is eternal life. And we have to endure to the end to be eternally saved as Christ Jesus taught.

Paul teaches that we will be judged on what we do good and bad. If we are already eternally saved, why will we be judged on what we do? And why does Jesus say in Revelation that we will be judged on our works? If there is no judgement?

I am not part of that "we" that will be judged as in the book of Revelation.

Christians are already judged to be justified, Romans 5:1, and made righteous, I Corinthians 1:30, II Corinthians 5:21.

Revelation is not talking about those who were already judges as righteous, that is us, but those who did choose salvation in this age of grace and those outside the age of grace

 

[oatmeal]

Indeed,....I see John's more mystical writings as being gnostic in nature, for eternal life is received thru a 'gnosis' based in the 'believing' in the revelation of the Son of God, and receiving this life thru faith in the Son. His emphasis is the life giving Spirit in its figurative, allegorical terms, as is most of the bible, especially Paul's gospel being mostly 'allegorical'. (He got his gospel and ministry-calling thru personal revelation (visions/voices) and allegorical interpretation of scripture, to which he boasted no man gave him).

Being 'saved' is but a concept, while 'salvation' is a process, via 'sanctification' or other ways.

Anything shared is subject to its own terms and meaning, and it depends on who you ask

Beyond some absolute reality, all is relative, conditional and subject to change, modification and adaptation. A student of truth is also always open to further learning and progressive revelation.

The book of Revelation may seem mystical

I, II and III John are quite plain


If you have done Romans 10:9-10, then you are saved at the moment you did that.

Now, some, maybe many who are saved do not yet know it. Unfortunately, they do not know yet if they have that gift of salvation/eternal life/holy spirit.

I John 5:13 makes it plain that it is God's will that we know so that we can live accordingly.

There is a difference between "to save" and "salvation" one is a verb, the other is a noun, both have the same root.

To be made whole, sozo is the Greek word, which is referring to wholeness.

The man of body and soul, what scripture refers to a the natural man, for his only mode of learning is from natural means, ie, the five senses, trial and error, is not yet whole

I Thessalonians tells us that the believer is made up of body and soul and spirit

When a person is saved, he received from God of His spirit, I John 4:13, completing him. Colossians 2:10

Now that man can go beyond what the natural man can do

The man of body and soul and spirit now has spiritual abilities at his disposal.

Question. does he know that? if he does, will he use that?

Although the Christian has been saved, is he making use of that salvation? or is he "hoping" for more?

He already has all the spiritual ability he will ever get for now.

There is further wholeness to be received by utilizing the gift.

Much like the human body, it is strengthened by use, by exercising it.

Is the person who exercises more fit than the one who is a recliner russet? a sofa spud? a couch potato?

Even so those who exercise that gift of holy spirit is more fit for the master than those who sit on it.

In a sense, their salvation is increased.

 

[meshak]

Oatmeal,

Marhig is from UK so it will be a while to reply to your posts.

 

[oatmeal]

Marhig is right; here it is:

Titus 3New International Version (NIV)

Saved in Order to Do Good

3 Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone.

3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace,

we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

It is so clear. why everyone fighting against it?

Well, it is clear for those who ignore I John 5:13, 4:13, Romans 10:9-10, I Peter 1:23, etc....

 

[oatmeal]

So giving yourselves self assurance is wrong.

That is right, but my assurance comes from God who saved me and gave his son for me.

I John 5:13

 

[oatmeal]

Yep, don't give yourself self-assurance. It's worthless.



Believers, however, have full assurance of salvation from the Gospel, itself.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.​

Yes, that is right

Thank you!

 

[meshak]

That is right, but my assurance comes from God who saved me and gave his son for me.

I John 5:13

We already refuted your claims, oatmeal.

 

[oatmeal]

Hopefully he'll say you need to put your faith in what Romans 5 asserts.

Rom. 5:6-8.

Yes, that is the truth that we must realize. It was not by our works,but by the works of God in Christ

 

[meshak]

Well, it is clear for those who ignore I John 5:13, 4:13, Romans 10:9-10, I Peter 1:23, etc....

Like I said, your reasoning does not harmonize with Jesus word.

I am done with you in this regard, if you repeat the same claims over and over.

 

[oatmeal]

Your reasoning do not make sense with Peter's word, at all.

1 Peter 4:17-19 (New International Version)
17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"


denial will not make you go anywhere.

It is hard if you are not willing to do Romans 10:9-10

Of course, for some maybe declaring Jesus as lord is difficult, because they do not want to humble themselves and submit to God's will.

The NIV is not a perfect version. the NKJV and KJV and others speak of the righteous shall scarcely be saved, not hard to be saved. The work of Christ is done, all we have to do is accept that gift of salvation, it is not that hard, Romans 10:9-10 is not impossible, it may be difficult only if you make it difficult.


Those who have done Romans 10:9-10 have already been judged jusrified and righteous. Yes judgement begins at the house of God and we have been judged righteous.

Note it does not say perfect, it says righteous.

We have been judged and we will be found imperfect, for we started off dead in trespasses and sin and old habits are hard to break, but that does not mean we are not saved.

We are saved, but not perfect.

We are saved as the house of God, so what will become of the ungodly and sinner? (those who have not confessed Jesus as lord and believed in their heart that God raised him from the dead)

 

[oatmeal]

We need to live by God's will, to receive anything from God.

Yes, that is correct.


That starts with Romans 10:9-10

Once we are saved, whole, that is, body and soul and spirit, then we can move on to do the works God set up for us to do. Ephesians 2:10

 

[meshak]

You are still repeating yourself, oatmeal.

so you will get the same kind of replies.

 

[oatmeal]

Oatmeal, many say they are saved and then live to the contrary, those being saved will be gradually overcoming their flesh by the power of the Spirit, we can't produce the fruit of the Spirit if we are still living in our flesh and loving this world.

Also, many say they are eternally saved and then turn back to the world, showing that they weren't eternally saved at all. We have freewill, we are being saved from this world and being helped to overcome sin whilst we live by Gods will and remain in his goodness, if we don't do this then we will be cut off just as the apostle Paul teaches.

People live under a false security when they believe that God will put up with anything and that all their sins past, present and future are forgiven the day that they said that they believed, this is not the truth. Only our past sins we're forgiven which we had done in ignorance, once we know God we are to turn from sin and obey him, we will still sin but we shouldn't be intentionally sinning, and when we realise that we do, we should repent and pray for forgiveness. God won't be mocked, and we are not to wilfully sin.

Right through the Bible we are told to turn from sin, why would God change his mind because Jesus died on the cross? Too many are listening to the false teaching, that regardless of what they do they are once saved always saved, this isn't true. God doesn't change, Jesus lived to save us, and we are saved by his life, by believing in his words, they are Spirit and they are life, by truly following him, and by his life made manifest within us by the power of the Holy Spirit helping us to overcome, thus saving us from satan and the world. Because he who is in us is stronger than he who is of the world. We are then to obey God, and endure what is set before us partake in the sufferings of Christ, and endure to the end through Christ Jesus who is our perfect example to follow. And the rewards for this are priceless, nothing in this world can compare to what God has to give us.

So, we are being saved through Christ Jesus, by hearing God's word, by believing in him and his gospel, by the grace of God through faith. We then are to turn from sin, and once we do this, and once we are born of God, God will help us and strengthen us to do so and help us to overcome our flesh and this world through Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

That is true, just because people are saved, does not mean that their walk with God is perfect.

A drunk man who falls into a deep lake and who is saved from drowning could and may most likely continue in being drunken even though he was saved from certain death.

God expects more of us than that and rightfully so.

Having been saved, God expects of us to walk (conduct our life, live the lifestyle that is) worthy of God's calling

Ephesians 4:1

I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

Colossians 2:6

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Colossians 1:10

That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;


1 Thessalonians 2:12

That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

2 Thessalonians 1:5

Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

2 Thessalonians 1:11

Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

We were saved when we were yet sinners.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


We were not saved by walking worthy of God, but to walk worthy of God.

Ephesians 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We were not capable of those good works until we were saved and given the gift of righteousness/salvation/holy spirit/eternal life

 

[oatmeal]

Christ Jesus has already returned and he is in those who belong to him, in his people. They are his resurrected body. The body of Christ.

Well, Colossians 1:27 does say that we have Christ in us.

So, I Thessalonians 4:13-17 tells us what?

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[oatmeal]

Those Christ did not die for are not saved and wont be saved, they remain lost in unbelief Jn 3:18,36

18 [FONT="]He that believeth on him is not condemned: [B]but he that believeth not is condemned already,[/B] because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT="]He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Now why dont they ever believe ? Because they were not of Christ's Sheep which He died for Jn 10:26,15

[/FONT]26 [FONT="]But [B]ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,[/B] as I said unto you.[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT="]
[/FONT]15 [FONT="]As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

The Sheep He layed down His Life for will believe, or else they were not His Sheep as plainly stated ![/FONT]

Well, then it is up to each individual to choose to believe

 

[oatmeal]

oatmeal



Question doesnt make sense and cant be answered scripturally !

It does make sense but could be written much better

Those who want to go beyond receiving salvation, those who want to use that salvation to do the works that God prepared for us to do will understand. Ephesians 2:10

 

[oatmeal]

Your reasoning is not contextual because it does not harmonize with Jesus' word.

So, are you saying if it is not Jesus' word you ignore them?

Do you own a red letter edition of the Bible?

Do you have a Bible that only has the words in red in them?

If so, then Genesis 1:1 is not true?

Is Matthew 1:18 a lie?

Is Luke 24:6 a lie?

 

[oatmeal]

I totally disagree with your reasoning.

I believe Marhig can explain how you are wrong.

She is much more patient than I, explaining people's misconceptions.

You can and do disagree

If you cannot realize that the bulk of the gospels describes the work of Jesus Christ in progress, not his completed works, then what is the significance of "It is finished"?