ECT Which understanding lends itself to your theology?

[Cross Reference]

I reject this interpretation of natural childbirth as being related to John 3:6 and Jesus' explanation of being born again.
Why? Because if this were the case, then every aborted fetus, every miscarriage would never enter heaven. I believe every conceived human organism that is flushed out by contraceptive devices, etc... ALL go to heaven.

I am glad you mentioned that re abortion. I am happy for you but, I don't believe you opinion will stand in light of scripture.

water and spirit...
now baptism saves you...
BUT the baptism, to be valid, must be in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus Himself directed before his ascension. Or at least that must be the intention of the one baptizing (in case they are not fully informed, etc.)

I am happy for you however, there is not a shred of scripture that supports that notion. Sorry, it isn't there.

OMT: above you stated all fetus', regardless of state of being, if they die or are aborted, go to heaven. Do you believe any of them God might send to hell? Does God, for that matter, ever send babies who die outside the womb, to hell?

 

[Cross Reference]

I hear what you are saying and I can sympathize with it. However, I do not think it applies to this verse. Jesus was not referencing aborted fetuses here or miscarried fetuses either. He was not setting forth a catch-all formula for salvation. Rather he was referencing Nicodemus' comment about going back again to his mother's womb in order to be born a second time. Aborted fetus's are not born and neither are miscarried fetuses in the context of the discussion. Of course aborted fetus's et al are saved and in heaven. And this not by way of some technicality that gets them in with a wink from God, but by the same way that you and I are saved: by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ alone.

How can that be without the breath of life in them to prove them born?

The hatred from God in this is because He is being robbed of [potential] saints for His kingdom. Not being born does not mean the baby resides someplace else. They reside nowhere because they were never brought into existence to make that an issue upon their death. Their spirit therefore remained with God who would have given it in conjunction with their first breath out of the womb.

 

[TFTn5280]

The objective truth is this:
Jesus said You must be born of water and spirit.
Jesus said: Baptize them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Subjective application of this TRUTH will be decided by God Who will judge each man according to his/her knowledge.

Simply and sincerely intending to do what God wants and according to ones given understanding can only be assessed by God. He is not legalistic!!![/B]

But His Kingdom has order and harmony and a Divine Design!

I humbly beg to differ with you here. If in accordance with your understanding, God has attached a formula to that by which you must be saved, then he is by definition a legalist.

 

[TFTn5280]

How can that be without the breath of life in them to prove them born?

The hatred from God in this is because He is being robbed of [potential] saints for His kingdom. Not being born does not mean the baby resides someplace else. They reside nowhere because they were never brought into existence to make that an issue upon their death. Their spirit therefore remained with God who would have given it in conjunction with their first breath out of the womb.

Then we of all people should be advocating their prior-to-birth termination. Spare them the hardship of being born into this world of sin, death, and the devil. NOT to mention the real potentiality that they may reject forever the salvation provided them in Christ Jesus. No, they are human from conception and in need of salvation. It is only in the resurrection of Christ that they or any of us can rise victorious over the tyrants (sin, death, and the devil).

 

[Squeaky]

But Jesus didn't mention anything about being baptized in water to Nicodemus when chiding him for not remembering "that little detail". So if baptizing for salvation could have been known by reading the OT, doncha think Nicodemus, a teacher of the Jews, would not have needed to ask the question?? "Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" John 3:10 (KJV)



You have water baptism as being a part of a very legalistic manner in which people can only be saved. What do you think happened when Jesus said to the thief on the cross,"This day you shall be with Me in Paradise". How could that be without water baptism?

Note: Acts 2:38 was NOT for salvation in the sense it has been given us to understand.. These Jews were righteous Jews who had now learned from Peter that Jesus had made peace with God in their behalf. Peter was in effect saying, 'change your thinking about your own righteousness in believing it to be sufficient for your salvation'. This is not to be confused with the derogatory accusation of being "self-righteousness" but having an honest appraisal of themselves according to the law not unlike how Paul thought of himself when persecuting the church, that he could say, ". . . as to righteousness under the law, blameless". However, whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ."Philippians 3:7 (ESV)

I said
Baptism in water had been going on for awhile starting with John the Baptist. And baptism with water was to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I don't know why you all bring up the thief on the cross. He was under the old testament Jesus new testament wasn't even in force until after the cross. We are under slightly different rules than he was.


Heb 9:16-17
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
(NKJ)

 

[Squeaky]

I seen this word used before. legalist. I don't know why it is every used in scripture conversations. It takes a law to keep you out of heaven and it takes a law to get you into heaven. And the commandments of Jesus are laws or rules.
JESUS COMMANDS US (RULE, LAW, ORDER)

Heb 7:12
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
John 15:10
10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
I Jn 2:4-5
4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
John 14:21
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
Matt 4:4
4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"
Matt 28:20
20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
Matt 24:35
35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
I Jn 2:3
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
I Jn 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
II Th 3:4
4 And we have confidence in the Lord concerning you, both that you do and will do the things we command you.
John 15:14
14 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
1 Tim 4:11
11 These things command and teach.
1 Cor 7:10
10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband.
Matt 28:20
20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
Heb 13:8
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Phile 1:21
21 Having confidence in your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even more than I say.
Matt 5:20
20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
John 15:10
10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
Acts 17:30
30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
II Jn 1:5-6
5 And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another.
6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.
Matt 19:17-21
17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said," 'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,'
19 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"
20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
Rom 13:9
9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Matt 22:37-40
37 Jesus said to him," 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
38 "This is the first and great commandment.
39 "And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
40 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
John 13:34-38
34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 "By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
36 Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered him, "Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward."
37 Peter said to Him, "Lord, why can I not follow You now? I will lay down my life for Your sake."
38 Jesus answered him, "Will you lay down your life for My sake? Most assuredly, I say to you, the rooster shall not crow till you have denied Me three times.
Matt 5:19
19 "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
I Jn 4:20-21
20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?
21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.
John 14:21
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
John 15:17
17 "These things I command you, that you love one another.
I Jn 2:4
4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
I Jn 2:3
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
James 1:12-15
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
James 1:22-24
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror;
24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.
James 1:25
25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
James 2:17
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:20
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
1 Tim 6:12
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
1 Tim 6:14-16
14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,
15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
James 2:12
12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
Rom 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:1
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
I Jn 5:3-4
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith.
Acts 1:1-3
1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,
3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.
I Jn 3:20-24
20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.
22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
Rev 22:14
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
I Jn 3:22-24
22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
(NKJ)
xxx To have faith in Jesus is to agree with His changes in the law. You cant have faith in Jesus without having faith in the changes He made in the law. You cant have faith in Jesus without keeping His commandments.The new testament is the new law that over rides the old testament law.



John 15:13-14
13 "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
14 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
(NKJ)


Matt 28:19-20
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
(NKJ)

1 Tim 6:12-14
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,
(NKJ)

 

[Cross Reference]

I said
Baptism in water had been going on for awhile starting with John the Baptist. And baptism with water was to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It was for the remission of sins. In a way, it no different than what the OT animal sacrifices accomplished, a justification by faith with righteous deeds, as evidence, to follow.

I don't know why you all bring up the thief on the cross. He was under the old testament Jesus new testament wasn't even in force until after the cross. We are under slightly different rules than he was.

So was John the Baptist.

 

[TFTn5280]

I said
Baptism in water had been going on for awhile starting with John the Baptist. And baptism with water was to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I don't know why you all bring up the thief on the cross. He was under the old testament Jesus new testament wasn't even in force until after the cross. We are under slightly different rules than he was.


Heb 9:16-17
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
(NKJ)

We are not under rules but grace (Rom 6.14-15). BUT I will play along with you. Are you saying that it was easier to be saved under the OT (his belief alone was sufficient to merit salvation), than it is under the New (belief plus baptism and/or other rules)? That seems odd.

 

[Cross Reference]

We are not under rules but grace (Rom 6.14-15). BUT I will play along with you. Are you saying that it was easier to be saved under the OT (his belief alone was sufficient to merit salvation), than it is under the New (belief plus baptism and/or other rules)? That seems odd.

That was not my post. Squeaky wants to be played with, not me. . .

 

[Sheila B]

I hear what you are saying and I can sympathize with it. However, I do not think it applies to this verse. Jesus was not referencing aborted fetuses here or miscarried fetuses either. He was not setting forth a catch-all formula for salvation. Rather he was referencing Nicodemus' comment about going back again to his mother's womb in order to be born a second time. Aborted fetus's are not born and neither are miscarried fetuses in the context of the discussion. Of course aborted fetus's et al are saved and in heaven. And this not by way of some technicality that gets them in with a wink from God, but by the same way that you and I are saved: by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ alone.

I agree with your summation. Yet, several posts said this "water and spirit" born again related to when a child is born of his mother.

Taking that interpretation literally...means one cannot enter the kingdom unless "one is born of its mother's womb".

 

[Sheila B]

I humbly beg to differ with you here. If in accordance with your understanding, God has attached a formula to that by which you must be saved, then he is by definition a legalist.

Why did Jesus give the apostles those words?

 

[Squeaky]

It was for the remission of sins. In a way, it no different than what the OT animal sacrifices accomplished, a justification by faith with righteous deeds, as evidence, to follow.



So was John the Baptist.

I said
And receive the Holy Spirit.
I have met a lot of people that talk bible but they were never baptized with water. They also don't know the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(NKJ)

 

[Squeaky]

We are not under rules but grace (Rom 6.14-15). BUT I will play along with you. Are you saying that it was easier to be saved under the OT (his belief alone was sufficient to merit salvation), than it is under the New (belief plus baptism and/or other rules)? That seems odd.

I said
If you are in Christ your not under OT law. And your not even in Christ (the revelations of Jesus Christ) until after you have went through the milk understanding and the meat understanding.

Rom 6:11-12
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
(NKJ)

Rom 6:14
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
(NKJ)

No one is Christ's UNTIL they have crucified all their emotions and feelings.

Gal 5:24
24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
(NKJ)

 

[Cross Reference]

delete

 

[Cross Reference]

I said
And receive the Holy Spirit.
I have met a lot of people that talk bible but they were never baptized with water. They also don't know the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(NKJ)

You have more stuff with you than a Christmas turkey. Do you know that??

I gave you good understanding from scripture. Address it or shut up!

<maybe I need a break away from this obtuseness> I think so.

 

[Cross Reference]

Then we of all people should be advocating their prior-to-birth termination. Spare them the hardship of being born into this world of sin, death, and the devil. NOT to mention the real potentiality that they may reject forever the salvation provided them in Christ Jesus. No, they are human from conception and in need of salvation. It is only in the resurrection of Christ that they or any of us can rise victorious over the tyrants (sin, death, and the devil).

Not in the least should we do that that we should play God in making such choices! God wants a vast family of sons. Ergo, abortion is wrong! Miscarriage is His business!

OMT, Innocence is blameless __ no need for salvation by Jesus Christ, Who provides it anyway for those who are no longer blameless. I thought you, of all people here, would know that.

 

[TFTn5280]

Not in the least should we do that that we should play God in making such choices! God wants a vast family of sons. Ergo, abortion is wrong! Miscarriage is His business!

OMT, Innocence is blameless __ no need for salvation by Jesus Christ, Who provides it anyway for those who are no longer blameless. I thought you, of all people here, would know that.

Innocent and blameless, yes, as it relates to sin, but sin is not the only thing for which Christ made atonement. In the atonement Christ saves us not only from sin but death as well (among other things). There is no resurrection out of death apart from that atonement. So while infants are innocent in terms of personal guilt they still die due to the effects of sin in the world, and they could not rise again to eternal life were it not for their inclusion in the resurrection of Christ; hence their Savior as well as ours. Sorry I didn't make myself clearer.

 

[TFTn5280]

By the way, Cross Reference, what does "OMT" stand for?

And could someone please explain to me how to put an automatic signature at the bottom of my posts. I would really appreciate it.

 

[Squeaky]

You have more stuff with you than a Christmas turkey. Do you know that??

I gave you good understanding from scripture. Address it or shut up!

<maybe I need a break away from this obtuseness> I think so.

I said
No you gave me your own opinion. Not scriptural understanding. I have you scripture and it went right over your head. Does that tell you anything about your own opinion?

Rom 12:16
16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
(NKJ)

obtuseness?

 

[Cross Reference]

I said
No you gave me your own opinion. Not scriptural understanding. I have you scripture and it went right over your head. Does that tell you anything about your own opinion?

Rom 12:16
16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
(NKJ)

obtuseness?

You gave nothing relevant to the op. :Your are too conceited to discuss any op.