ECT What is the Gospel command?

[nikolai_42]

Several verses speak of "obeying" the gospel (Romans 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:8 and I Peter 4:17 most apparently). In Romans 6:17, Paul says that the Romans had "...obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."

Far from being an invitation to law-keeping for salvation, the apostle is clearly saying that there is an injunction that accompanies the gospel which cannot be fulfilled superficially. In fact, it seems as though this obedience Paul commends is absolutely essential to the free gospel.

Doesn't this lay so much on (and read so much in to) the necessity to and the full understanding of "believe" that this belief is only possible in a pure heart? What inclination (of itself) does the impure and unbelieving heart have to become pure?

 

[elohiym]

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."

List his sayings you can obey.

 

[elohiym]

Here's one: "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."

 

[nikolai_42]

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."

List his sayings you can obey.

Here's one: "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions."

Okay...but how are these the gospel?

 

[Cross Reference]

Several verses speak of "obeying" the gospel (Romans 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:8 and I Peter 4:17 most apparently). In Romans 6:17, Paul says that the Romans had "...obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."

Far from being an invitation to law-keeping for salvation, the apostle is clearly saying that there is an injunction that accompanies the gospel which cannot be fulfilled superficially. In fact, it seems as though this obedience Paul commends is absolutely essential to the free gospel.

Doesn't this lay so much on (and read so much in to) the necessity to and the full understanding of "believe" that this belief is only possible in a pure heart? What inclination (of itself) does the impure and unbelieving heart have to become pure?

. . . . and how shall he know his untoward condition unless a preacher, one with discernment, is sent?

 

[elohiym]

Okay...but how are these the gospel?

That you were forgiven your sins and raised from the dead to partake of His divine nature is the good news, and the evidence you received that good news is that you forgive others and show mercy to them as God did to you.

 

[nikolai_42]

That you were forgiven your sins and raised from the dead to partake of His divine nature is the good news, and the evidence you received that good news is that you forgive others and show mercy to them as God did to you.

I agree. I'm just not certain that that is what the "obedience" spoken of here actually is...

 

[elohiym]

I agree. I'm just not certain that that is what the "obedience" spoken of here actually is...

Seems to me it has to be about that obedience. What's your argument against?

 

[nikolai_42]

Seems to me it has to be about that obedience. What's your argument against?

It seems like Romans 10 itself is an argument against do and live - but rather for believe and do. In other words, the obedience Paul seems to speak of here is belief in Christ. That, after all, was his argument against Israel. God went after them - a disobedient people - and they without excuse to believe in God. So God provoked them to jealousy by manifesting Himself to a people that did not even seek Him. Even verse 16 itself specifically references lack of faith. And it all starts with verse 4

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 10:4

The rest of the chapter seems to be contrasting the obedience of faith with the righteousness of the Law. And if obedience of faith is what is here, then the works you reference (and with which I agree) are actually fruit rather than obedience.

In summary, isn't the obedience here spoken of merely believing God?

 

[elohiym]

It seems like Romans 10 itself is an argument against do and live - but rather for believe and do. In other words, the obedience Paul seems to speak of here is belief in Christ.

Belief in Christ is receiving his sayings.

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."

In summary, isn't the obedience here spoken of merely believing God?

The ones who claim to believe God but do not keep His sayings only honor God with their lips but their hearts are far from Him. Faith without works is dead, and works without faith are filthy rags.

 

[BOLCATS]

Belief in Christ is receiving his sayings.

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."



The ones who claim to believe God but do not keep His sayings only honor God with their lips but their hearts are far from Him. Faith without works is dead, and works without faith are filthy rags.

"But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Matthew 5:28.

In order to keep his sayings, don't we have to understand them first? What does it mean to look at a women with lust? Every single man who has ever lived on this planet is physically attracted to women mainly visually, including their wife before they met her. According to popular understanding then, most men committed adultery with their wife before they married them.

Also, where does the woman come into this as far as keeping his sayings? How does the verse apply to the female sex?

 

[nikolai_42]

Belief in Christ is receiving his sayings.

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."



The ones who claim to believe God but do not keep His sayings only honor God with their lips but their hearts are far from Him. Faith without works is dead, and works without faith are filthy rags.

All of which says that the belief in Christ that attends the promise of eternal life is rooted in that time we "first believed". In other words, the works are the fruit of efficacious belief. Faith without works is indeed dead and works without faith are indeed filthy rags. So neither can stand alone - and neither do if one really is in Christ.

I don't disagree with any of what you have said here...except to say that the obedience is not the obedience as evidenced in good works but rather the obedience to believe God - as Abraham did (and it was counted to him for righteousness). Not an empty faith that parrots some statements, but a full faith that actually rests entirely on Christ and His sacrifice for salvation and all the good works that come from that.

 

[elohiym]

"But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matthew 5:28.

In order to keep his sayings, don't we have to understand them first? What does it mean to look at a women with lust? Every single man who has ever lived on this planet is physically attracted to women mainly visually, including their wife before they met her. According to popular understanding then, most men committed adultery with their wife before they married them.

Popular understanding is not the correct understanding, imo. The Lord was not making up a new, harder commandment to keep. He was simply magnifying one of the ten commandments: do not covet your neighbor's wife. When you covet your neighbor's wife, which is to desire to take her from her husband, that is the same as committing adultery in your heart. It's also the same as committing murder in your heart because it requires you hate your neighbor to steal his wife.

Also, where does the woman come into this as far as keeping his sayings? How does the verse apply to the female sex?

"Thou shalt not covet" applies to both sexes even if it was written to men in a patriarchal society. If you covet your neighbor's spouse it's adultery in your heart; if you covet your neighbor's car it's theft your heart; and both desires are murder in your heart.

Desiring a wife as pretty as your neighbor's wife is not coveting. Thinking she is attractive is not coveting. Appreciating her beauty is not coveting. Desiring to take her from him is as bad as adultery. Make sense?

 

[BOLCATS]

Popular understanding is not the correct understanding, imo. The Lord was not making up a new, harder commandment to keep. He was simply magnifying one of the ten commandments: do not covet your neighbor's wife. When you covet your neighbor's wife, which is to desire to take her from her husband, that is the same as committing adultery in your heart. It's also the same as committing murder in your heart because it requires you hate your neighbor to steal his wife.



"Thou shalt not covet" applies to both sexes even if it was written to men in a patriarchal society. If you covet your neighbor's spouse it's adultery in your heart; if you covet your neighbor's car it's theft your heart; and both desires are murder in your heart.

Desiring a wife as pretty as your neighbor's wife is not coveting. Thinking she is attractive is not coveting. Appreciating her beauty is not coveting. Desiring to take her from him is as bad as adultery. Make sense?

Yes! Thank you so much. I have never heard this taught before. This understanding would relieve so many Christians of false guilt and would remove so much psychological problems in Christian men. Things like this are what I need to finally become a Christian. Sexual hangups is part of what has kept me on the agnostic fence for so long.