What is death? What is resurrection? And why do we care?

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Your scripture references don't support your assertion, and you've ignored my counter. If you're just here to preach, go someplace else.

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Okay, I've just re-read the OP and my reply in post#19 answered it:

There are 2 deaths and 2 Resurrections.

1st death is when we die in this life and go to Heaven or Hell.

2nd death is at the end of the Millennial reign after the great white throne judgement when non-Christians etc are sent to the lake of fire.

1st Resurrection is for the 144,000 to reign with Christ during the Millennial reign.

2nd Resurrection is for the Great Multitude at the end of the Millennial reign who will live on the new Earth and in Heaven.
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You said: Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
So you don't count "hell" as the same as "lake of fire". In what form do you think we go to heaven or hell after the first death?

What do you think happens at the second resurrection? Are spirits reunited with bodies just to be thrown into the lake of fire? Why do you think this would be necessary.
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And I answered:

Hell is a separate place from the lake of fire.

When we die in this life (the first death) we go to Heaven or Hell as a spirit (in our spirit bodies).

At the two resurrections only those going to Heaven will receive their resurrected bodies, those going to Hell will not.

1st Resurrection is for the 144,000 to reign with Christ during the Millennial reign.

2nd Resurrection is for the Great Multitude at the end of the Millennial reign who will live on the new Earth and in Heaven.

Matthew 22
29Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’b ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” 33When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.

'But about the resurrection of the dead' = For those going to Heaven after their first death.

'He is not the God of the dead but of the living.' = He is not the God of those who enter the second death (the lake of fire). But He is the God of the Living Resurrected Christians.
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From here on I have been trying to explain why the above is so, I know it is complicated but then you are asking something that required a complex answer. If you don't accept it then I can't help you and good luck to you.

 

[Derf]

Spoiler

Okay, I've just re-read the OP and my reply in post#19 answered it:

There are 2 deaths and 2 Resurrections.

1st death is when we die in this life and go to Heaven or Hell.

2nd death is at the end of the Millennial reign after the great white throne judgement when non-Christians etc are sent to the lake of fire.

1st Resurrection is for the 144,000 to reign with Christ during the Millennial reign.

2nd Resurrection is for the Great Multitude at the end of the Millennial reign who will live on the new Earth and in Heaven.
----------------------------------------
You said: Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
So you don't count "hell" as the same as "lake of fire". In what form do you think we go to heaven or hell after the first death?

What do you think happens at the second resurrection? Are spirits reunited with bodies just to be thrown into the lake of fire? Why do you think this would be necessary.
----------------------------------------
And I answered:

Hell is a separate place from the lake of fire.

When we die in this life (the first death) we go to Heaven or Hell as a spirit (in our spirit bodies).

At the two resurrections only those going to Heaven will receive their resurrected bodies, those going to Hell will not.

1st Resurrection is for the 144,000 to reign with Christ during the Millennial reign.

2nd Resurrection is for the Great Multitude at the end of the Millennial reign who will live on the new Earth and in Heaven.

Matthew 22
29Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’b ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” 33When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.

'But about the resurrection of the dead' = For those going to Heaven after their first death.

'He is not the God of the dead but of the living.' = He is not the God of those who enter the second death (the lake of fire). But He is the God of the Living Resurrected Christians.

----------------------------------------
From here on I have been trying to explain why the above is so, I know it is complicated but then you are asking something that required a complex answer. If you don't accept it then I can't help you and good luck to you.

What you have described in bringing up reincarnation is a many-death process. It's not helpful when we're specifically talking about a "first" death from which everyone is resurrected in their own flesh and a "second" death from which nobody is resurrected.

If your reincarnation view is accurate (though I've given you verses to refute it that you haven't answered), it is still a side issue, because we are only interested in the "first" and "second" death and the resurrection (where, in Rev 20:13, the sea, Hades, and "death" gave up the dead that were in them--no reincarnation there--all those dead folks were still dead).

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Your scripture references don't support your assertion, and you've ignored my counter. If you're just here to preach, go someplace else.

Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app

P.S.
I think the key thing to understand is the 1st resurrection is for the 144,000 to reign with Christ during the Millennial reign. While the 2nd resurrection is for the Great Multitude at the end of the Millennial reign who will live on the new Earth and in Heaven.

Revelation 7
1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

Revelation 14
1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

The 144,000 are the first fruits offered up to God by the two witness:

Revelation 11:12
Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

Deuteronomy 16:16 No one should appear before the LORD empty-handed:

Jesus did the same when took the holy men and ascended to Heaven:

Matthew 27
52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

The 144,000 will return at Jesus second coming:

Jude 1:14
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones

They will rule with Jesus (and the 24 elders) in His Millennial reign as His government:

Revelation 20
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theya had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

What you have described in bringing up reincarnation is a many-death process. It's not helpful when we're specifically talking about a "first" death from which everyone is resurrected in their own flesh and a "second" death from which nobody is resurrected.

If your reincarnation view is accurate (though I've given you verses to refute it that you haven't answered), it is still a side issue, because we are only interested in the "first" and "second" death and the resurrection (where, in Rev 20:13, the sea, Hades, and "death" gave up the dead that were in them--no reincarnation there--all those dead folks were still dead).

Just because it says 'first death' doesn't mean that we only have one death, it is the first type of death which is different from the second death which is permanent and I did respond to Heb 9:27, I don't recall you offering any other verses. Did you?

 

[Derf]

Just because it says 'first death' doesn't mean that we only have one death, it is the first type of death which is different from the second death which is permanent and I did respond to Heb 9:27, I don't recall you offering any other verses. Did you?

Yes, Job 19:26. See here.

And your exposition of Heb 9:27 wrapped around on itself until you pretty much agreed with me.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Yes, Job 19:26. See here.

And your exposition of Heb 9:27 wrapped around on itself until you pretty much agreed with me.

No I didn't, perhaps you just didn't read what I said? And as for Job 19:26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;

Yes after the Resurrection he will see God in the his flesh.

 

[patrick jane]

Were Adam & Eve sentenced to hell until Jesus Christ?

 

[Derf]

P.S.
I think the key thing to understand is the 1st resurrection is for the 144,000 to reign with Christ during the Millennial reign. While the 2nd resurrection is for the Great Multitude at the end of the Millennial reign who will live on the new Earth and in Heaven.

Revelation 7
1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

Revelation 14
1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

The 144,000 are the first fruits offered up to God by the two witness:

Revelation 11:12
Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

Deuteronomy 16:16 No one should appear before the LORD empty-handed:

Jesus did the same when took the holy men and ascended to Heaven:

Matthew 27
52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

The 144,000 will return at Jesus second coming:

Jude 1:14
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones

They will rule with Jesus (and the 24 elders) in His Millennial reign as His government:

Revelation 20
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theya had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.

You have yet to show any verses talking about the resurrection of the 144,000. The best you have offered is Rev 20:4, but it is not limited to the 144,000 in the text--only in some people's doctrine. And Rev 20:4 is echoed in Rev 2:11--the one who overcomes won't face (or be hurt by) the second death. And that verbage is echoed a little earlier in Rev 2:7. These are directed at "anyone with an ear". That's a lot more than 144,000, don't you think?

 

[Derf]

Were Adam & Eve sentenced to hell until Jesus Christ?

I'm not sure--I think it's a good question. First, we have to decide what "hell" is. If you're talking about Gehenna/Lake of fire, than I'm wondering if they were. It seems to me that the punishment they were threatened with, "death", they received! If so, then how could they now face a second punishment--hell ("second death")?

Here's how I think it might work: If "death" (I'm thinking physical death) is the punishment for sin ("wages" of sin in Rom 6:23), and Jesus died to save the world, and the evidence of "salvation" is resurrection, then the fact that all are resurrected is evidence that Jesus destroyed death.

If Jesus destroyed death, then if someone doesn't accept His sacrifice, there's another punishment that is needed, since "death" is no longer available. Thus a "second death" is needed. If people can no longer die, then the second death is something where they live, but are dead in some sense. This could be the Lake of Fire kind of hell.

 

[Derf]

No I didn't, perhaps you just didn't read what I said? And as for Job 19:26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;

Yes after the Resurrection he will see God in the his flesh.

In whose flesh? If he has been reincarnated multiple times, will he see God in "Job's flesh" or in "Tom, Dick, or Harry's flesh" or what"

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

In whose flesh? If he has been reincarnated multiple times, will he see God in "Job's flesh" or in "Tom, Dick, or Harry's flesh" or what"

As I pointed out:

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.

It's what is inside that counts, i.e. the your spirit and soul, the eternal part of you that has existed since day one.

 

[Derf]

As I pointed out:

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.

It's what is inside that counts, i.e. the your spirit and soul, the eternal part of you that has existed since day one.

The Spirit gives life to what? The flesh can't give life to itself, but needs the Spirit. But that doesn't mean there is no flesh.

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[WatchmanOnTheWall]

The Spirit gives life to what? The flesh can't give life to itself, but needs the Spirit. But that doesn't mean there is no flesh.

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What that verse means is that we are not really just flesh, the flesh is merely the 'vehicle' in which we, the driver, resides. the flesh dies but the soul and spirit go on but they also get put into the body in the womb before birth.

 

[Derf]

What that verse means is that we are not really just flesh, the flesh is merely the 'vehicle' in which we, the driver, resides. the flesh dies but the soul and spirit go on but they also get put into the body in the womb before birth.

Then there's no need for a resurrection.

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[Zeke]

I'm not trying to determine who is damned and who is saved, whether before the cross or after. But I'm curious about how it looks to be saved before the cross vs after. Is the approach to judgment different? It seems like it isn't--those that are saved before the cross (and I think there are some) and those that are saved after are surely still saved by the blood of Jesus, and not their own works. And those that are not saved before the cross, as well as those that are not saved after, will be judged according to their works.

If God "winked" at the sins before the cross, but doesn't now, then it does seem like there is a divide, as you stated. What that divide consists of is up for discussion, as your Acts passage tells us very little, except that now there is more responsibility than before to do something (repent) with the information we've been given. I think that bolsters, slightly, my case for greater judgment for those that reject Christ rather than just for "normal" sins.


God may not be as we imagine, but He is as He tells us, if we can really understand it. And he will do right in His eyes, but He also wants us to be doing right as in His eyes. Thus we should know something about what right looks like in His eyes.

Just as we shouldn't be punished for sins that are not ours, we also shouldn't be punished beyond what He tells us. At the same time, there are definite federal headship issues that play out in this discussion. Adam's sin definitely brought death on his progeny, and Jesus' headship accounts His righteousness to us.

So, for justice's sake, is the physical death an adequate punishment? Is it what God told Adam and Eve would happen if they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? If it is, then why does Revelation threaten us with a "second death"? If not, then how did it (physical death) come about?

Is our punishment for sin two events? A physical and a spiritual death, both encapsulated in the one threat?

What is spiritual death? Many believers think that we are dead spiritually before we are redeemed, but that terminology is confusing if the 2nd death is a spiritual death--then unbelievers actually have 2 spiritual deaths and one physical death to consider. Again, it seems like there is more punishment than was promised in the Garden. Isn't that unjust? Would God allow such injustice?

My thought is that God is 100% just, and therefore we don't understand even our own terminology, much less the bible's.

Luke 17:20-21 tells you where the kingdom is and why the stories are symbolical Galatians 4:24, tradition is chasing historical phantoms/wind that have you trying to observe what is nonobservable muchless restricted by time where death is a fruit of that mortal dream state controlled by script on paper even though it exposes that 2cor 3:6 the scales of the finite control hide the liberty that is always at hand.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Then there's no need for a resurrection.

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No, the resurrection is to get us back to the same 'supernatural' state that Adam enjoyed before the fall. This is only achieved by faith in Christ. That is why reincarnation makes this possible for everyone.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That is why reincarnation makes this possible for everyone.

Are we to believe that everyone who is not a believer will perish but then he will be reincarnated?:

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11. For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law" (Ro.2:8-12).​

How can a person perish but end up saved?

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Are we to believe that everyone who is not a believer will perish but then he will be reincarnated?:

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11. For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law" (Ro.2:8-12).​

How can a person perish but end up saved?

The first death only sends non-Christians to Hell, we all went to Hell until Jesus came and saved us. Those who accept Jesus then go to Heaven when they die but we are all given many lives pre and post Jesus to be saved and to save others. The second death after the Millennial reign is when those who have not accepted Christ and have therefore sinned with or without the law shall perish. No one is alive until they accept Christ and the only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ.

 

[Derf]

Luke 17:20-21 tells you where the kingdom is and why the stories are symbolical Galatians 4:24, tradition is chasing historical phantoms/wind that have you trying to observe what is nonobservable muchless restricted by time where death is a fruit of that mortal dream state controlled by script on paper even though it exposes that 2cor 3:6 the scales of the finite control hide the liberty that is always at hand.

I'm not detecting a point in your post. Would you like to express one?

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[Derf]

No, the resurrection is to get us back to the same 'supernatural' state that Adam enjoyed before the fall. This is only achieved by faith in Christ. That is why reincarnation makes this possible for everyone.

Jesus said that in the resurrection we will be like the angels in heaven, neither marrying nor giving in marriage. That doesn't sound like Adam before the fall, where he needed a wife.

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