What is "Crucified with Christ"? AKA the infamous Meat and Milk seals debate

[Jacob]

Does 'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling' mean anything to you?

God demands YOU do your part.

That's not what the verse is about. It is about encouraging you in your walk.

Responsibility comes with being saved.

Sad that most want nothing to do with what He commands.

Sad that they just want the free gift, when salvation also entails being a LIGHT.

Most put that light under a bushel, and have become good for NOTHING...from out former communications, I know that you think that 'Light' is the law of moses/torah..which is an absolute lie. The Light is LOVE, and faith is the key.

I don't, so you are lying about me.

God made the nation of Israel a light. He chose them from among all the people by giving them the Torah.

I don't know what you mean by "The Light is LOVE". A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.

 

[Jacob]

Why are you trying to convince people that you have been sealed because of something you have done, while they have not?

 

[steko]

That's not what the verse is about. It is about encouraging you in your walk.I don't, so you are lying about me.

God made the nation of Israel a light. He chose them from among all the people by giving them the Torah.

I don't know what you mean by "The Light is LOVE". A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.

opcorn:

 

[graceandpeace]

Why are you trying to convince people that you have been sealed because of something you have done, while they have not?

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I know how the INCREASE actually occurs..when a person is saved, God has changed their heart, and they begin to walk in love. Love increases over time, as we grow...and, when love has been perfected; matured; you can no longer be tossed to and fro...the problem today is that most, especially on this board, have never even been born again, and, their posts prove it.

Anyone who denies that God did not change their heart, from stone to LOVE is not saved.

HAS NEVER BEEN saved.

Then, there are those who are born again, but not yet mature/perfected love.

They will not argue against the heart change, because they know they love...but, they are just not sure yet, of the meat, because they have not yet allowed Jesus to complete in them what He started; which is to bring a SAVED person to maturity....

Everyone can of their own 'heart', decide where they are..I am just speaking the truth....but, it is apparant to me, and to anyone else on this board that knows what occurs when a person is saved; (you begin to walk in love..not of your power, but by the new heart creatioin that God made you)...and, if you deny that He gave you this ability; you have never even tasted salvation.

You are just simply self diluded.

 

[Jacob]

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I know how the INCREASE actually occurs..when a person is saved, God has changed their heart, and they begin to walk in love. Love increases over time, as we grow...and, when love has been perfected; matured; you can no longer be tossed to and fro...the problem today is that most, especially on this board, have never even been born again, and, their posts prove it.

Anyone who denies that God did not change their heart, from stone to LOVE is not saved.

HAS NEVER BEEN saved.

Then, there are those who are born again, but not yet mature/perfected love.

They will not argue against the heart change, because they know they love...but, they are just not sure yet, of the meat, because they have not yet allowed Jesus to complete in them what He started; which is to bring a SAVED person to maturity....

Everyone can of their own 'heart', decide where they are..I am just speaking the truth....but, it is apparant to me, and to anyone else on this board that knows what occurs when a person is saved; (you begin to walk in love..not of your power, but by the new heart creatioin that God made you)...and, if you deny that He gave you this ability; you have never even tasted salvation.

You are just simply self diluded.

How so? And you didn't respond to the part about the Holy Spirit sealing the believer. Why do you believe this doesn't occur until a person matures?

 

[graceandpeace]

Quote:
Originally Posted by graceandpeace
Does 'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling' mean anything to you?

God demands YOU do your part.

Untel:

That's not what the verse is about. It is about encouraging you in your walk.

That is certainly part of it..why do you reject the rest?

I said:

Quote:
Responsibility comes with being saved.

Sad that most want nothing to do with what He commands.

Sad that they just want the free gift, when salvation also entails being a LIGHT.

Most put that light under a bushel, and have become good for NOTHING...from out former communications, I know that you think that 'Light' is the law of moses/torah..which is an absolute lie. The Light is LOVE, and faith is the key.

Untel:

I don't, so you are lying about me.

God made the nation of Israel a light. He chose them from among all the people by giving them the Torah.

You are confusing the true Israel witht the fleshly one.

God gave the fleshly one the law/torah to show all mankind as sinners.

They misused the law, as Paul explained by making it into a law unto righteossness; much like you do:

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.


Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Israel of the SPIRIT were those who walked by FAITH; where sin was not imputed...people like Abraham, David, Moses himself....who was used of God to give the carnal law to the carnal nation. It was the carnal nation that misused it; God gave it to condemn them, and they sought to be righteouss through it...by works.

Only the true Israel is righteouss, and that without works of the law of moses; for their works are based on faith, and it works through LOVE.

I don't know what you mean by "The Light is LOVE". A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.

Go search out how faith works.

 

[Jacob]

Untel:

That is certainly part of it..why do you reject the rest?

What do you believe I reject?

I said:

Untel:

You are confusing the true Israel witht the fleshly one.

Did God give the true Israel the Torah? Is that your argument? I'm having difficulty understanding what you are saying.

God gave the fleshly one the law/torah to show all mankind as sinners.

They misused the law, as Paul explained by making it into a law unto righteossness; much like you do:

What are you talking about? Where have I "misused the law", "making it into a law unto righteousness"?

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Israel of the SPIRIT were those who walked by FAITH; where sin was not imputed...people like Abraham, David, Moses himself....who was used of God to give the carnal law to the carnal nation. It was the carnal nation that misused it; God gave it to condemn them, and they sought to be righteouss through it...by works.

Only the true Israel is righteouss, and that without works of the law of moses; for their works are based on faith, and it works through LOVE.

Go search out how faith works.

Which definition of "works" are you using here?

 

[graceandpeace]

How so? And you didn't respond to the part about the Holy Spirit sealing the believer. Why do you believe this doesn't occur until a person matures?

I am not referring to the 'sealing' of sonship, as a born again believer, in this thread....I am referring to the sealing of 'maturity', unto the mature man/fullness of stature of Christ.

You keep thinking I am referring to being born again.

That is NOT the sealing, I am referring to..in this thread.

There is a sealing unto maturity.

..and, it is accomplished through knowing the true meat.

Can we stay on topic?

 

[Jacob]

I am not referring to the 'sealing' of sonship, as a born again believer, in this thread....I am referring to the sealing of 'maturity', unto the mature man/fullness of stature of Christ.

You keep thinking I am referring to being born again.

That is NOT the sealing, I am referring to..in this thread.

There is a sealing unto maturity.

..and, it is accomplished through knowing the true meat.

Can we stay on topic?

Which Bible verse are you using as a basis for your not being born again Holy Spirit sealing?

You have an emphasis on "knowing the true meat".

 

[graceandpeace]

Quote:
Originally Posted by graceandpeace
Untel:

That is certainly part of it..why do you reject the rest?

Untel:

What do you believe I reject?

The part that I spoke of in the prior verses that you said was not relevant to the verse in quesion; 'working out your own salvation with fear and trembling'......my point was that we are all responsible to do this, and, fear will eventully be put away...by doing so...through putting on the mature man...knowing what it is to be 'crucified with Christ'. Let me see if I can say it in a way you can understand. Upon initial salvation, all we know is Jesus Christ and HIM crucified; later, through maturing, we undergo what it is to be crucified along with Him...we cannot know this, because we have to have the Holy Spirit to learn of it...we know Jesus Christ crucified; by faith; and, that means, without assurance; for faith is hope in things UNSEEN. Once He comes to live in us, we can begin to have assurance, but it takes growing in grace and in knowledge to get it done/which is the part of which I speak...coming to understand YOURself crucified with Him.







I said:

Quote:

I said:

Untel:

You are confusing the true Israel witht the fleshly one.

Untel:

Did God give the true Israel the Torah?

NO, the true israel walked by FAITH; faith does not impute sin....the torah/law of moses DID.

Is that your argument? I'm having difficulty understanding what you are saying.

I am speaking plainly.

I said:

Quote:
God gave the fleshly one the law/torah to show all mankind as sinners.

They misused the law, as Paul explained by making it into a law unto righteossness; much like you do:

Untel:

What are you talking about? Where have I "misused the law", "making it into a law unto righteousness"?

because you constantly claim that those of faith of old walked in torah/ which is a lie. FAITH IS NOT OF THE LAW OF MOSES.

No one of faith walked under moses, or his law, ...period.

I said:

Quote:
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Israel of the SPIRIT were those who walked by FAITH; where sin was not imputed...people like Abraham, David, Moses himself....who was used of God to give the carnal law to the carnal nation. It was the carnal nation that misused it; God gave it to condemn them, and they sought to be righteouss through it...by works.

Only the true Israel is righteouss, and that without works of the law of moses; for their works are based on faith, and it works through LOVE.

Go search out how faith works.

Untel:

Which definition of "works" are you using here?

works of the law of moses...Israel of the flesh sought their righteousness through it; not by faith; which was never a part of it.

 

[graceandpeace]

Which Bible verse are you using as a basis for your not being born again Holy Spirit sealing?
You have an emphasis on "knowing the true meat".

?

I have no clue what you are saying.

When we are saved; we are born again, and sealed with the holy spirit..we then go onward unto maturity, and when we are matured; we are sealed once again, with the seal of the meat. This seal means we can never fall.

Babes who are born again, can fall...mature men cannot.

So, we have a seal unto milk; initial salvation.
Later, a seal unto meat, mature man.

We are saved by the milk, matured by the meat..it is not complicated.

 

[Jacob]

Untel:

The part that I spoke of in the prior verses that you said was not relevant to the verse in quesion; 'working out your own salvation with fear and trembling'......my point was that we are all responsible to do this, and, fear will eventully be put away...by doing so...through putting on the mature man...knowing what it is to be 'crucified with Christ'. Let me see if I can say it in a way you can understand. Upon initial salvation, all we know is Jesus Christ and HIM crucified; later, through maturing, we undergo what it is to be crucified along with Him...we cannot know this, because we have to have the Holy Spirit to learn of it...we know Jesus Christ crucified; by faith; and, that means, without assurance; for faith is hope in things UNSEEN. Once He comes to live in us, we can begin to have assurance, but it takes growing in grace and in knowledge to get it done/which is the part of which I speak...coming to understand YOURself crucified with Him.

We all have a charge before God. We ought to deal with our own sin in honesty before God.

You have an idea of "initial salvation". What do you mean by this?

I said:

Untel:

NO, the true israel walked by FAITH; faith does not impute sin....the torah/law of moses DID.

I am speaking plainly.

I said:

Untel:

because you constantly claim that those of faith of old walked in torah/ which is a lie. FAITH IS NOT OF THE LAW OF MOSES.

No one of faith walked under moses, or his law, ...period.

I said:

Untel:

works of the law of moses...Israel of the flesh sought their righteousness through it; not by faith; which was never a part of it.

What did Paul mean in Romans 3:31?

 

[Jacob]

?

I have no clue what you are saying.

When we are saved; we are born again, and sealed with the holy spirit..we then go onward unto maturity, and when we are matured; we are sealed once again, with the seal of the meat. This seal means we can never fall.

Where are you getting this "seal of the meat" from? Why are you saying, "we can never fall"?

Babes who are born again, can fall...mature men cannot.

So, we have a seal unto milk; initial salvation.
Later, a seal unto meat, mature man.

We are saved by the milk, matured by the meat..it is not complicated.

It is difficult to know if you are thinking maturity is salvation or not.

Those who are saved have the milk first and then the meat. It is not that we are saved by the milk.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Where are you getting this "seal of the meat" from?

:chuckle:

:up:

 

[graceandpeace]

You can UNSEAL the milk:

Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hbr 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.


Hbr 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

The writer here had the same problem explaining this, as I do, because MOST are dull of hearing.

Hbr 5:12 ¶ For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Some on this board need to return back to MILK, because their so called meat, as unsealed the very milk...(made it non effective), in other words, they have made grace and faith VOID...unsealing the milk of the word of God.




Hbr 5:13 For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Hbr 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


It is the will of God to save us by the milk...we are sealed with the milk initially, but, IF we remove the MILK; unseal the milk, we have made faith void; and are in need to going back and learning the basic principals of the word, so we can be sealed in the milk once again.

It is only those who do not undo the milk, but move on into the sealing of the meat that can never fall...for false gospels.

 

[Angel4Truth]

I guess seal of the meat is another way of saying osas.

Or it could be a usda choice seal, who knows, never heard of 'seal of the meat' before other than usda seals.

 

[Nick M]

You don't seem to know what the verses are that you are speaking against.

Glad to be of service.

That is what happens when you just make things up like she does.

 

[graceandpeace]

We all have a charge before God. We ought to deal with our own sin in honesty before God.

You have an idea of "initial salvation". What do you mean by this?What did Paul mean in Romans 3:31?

First of all, the only 'sin' that any believer has to deal with is unbelief.

Initial salvatioin is when you believe...and, are saved as a babe in Christ...He wants to move you onto maturity...

 

[Nick M]

Where are you getting this "seal of the meat" from? Why are you saying, "we can never fall"?

That is what happens when you just make things up like she does.

When we are saved; we are born again, and sealed with the holy spirit..we then go onward unto maturity, and when we are matured; we are sealed once again, with the seal of the meat.

This is quite frankly, one of the dumbest things I have ever read anywhere, let alone a "theological debate".

 

[Angel4Truth]

You can UNSEAL the milk:

Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hbr 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.


Hbr 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

The writer here had the same problem explaining this, as I do, because MOST are dull of hearing.

Hbr 5:12 ¶ For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Some on this board need to return back to MILK, because their so called meat, as unsealed the very milk...(made it non effective), in other words, they have made grace and faith VOID...unsealing the milk of the word of God.




Hbr 5:13 For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Hbr 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


It is the will of God to save us by the milk...we are sealed with the milk initially, but, IF we remove the MILK; unseal the milk, we have made faith void; and are in need to going back and learning the basic principals of the word, so we can be sealed in the milk once again.

It is only those who do not undo the milk, but move on into the sealing of the meat that can never fall...for false gospels.

So you are saying if you are yet a "babe" in Christ, you can lose your salvation, but if you have made it to meat by works, you get to keep it?