ECT Under The Law

Danoh

New member
The Twelve and their converts REMAINED under the Law.

How long?

Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

24:20 But pray your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Years later, He had still not returned. And we read...

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

What about the Gentiles?

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

MJs confuse that as referring to Sheva Mitzvot B'nei Noach, or the Noahide Laws Gentiles are supposedly under, this side of the Cross.

The Apostle of the Gentiles: Paul, would beg to differ as to that which James is talking about as James had no authority over the Gentiles' diet.

Galatians 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: ) 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

Paul's instruction to the Gentiles regarding the dietary issue James mentioned to Paul in Acts 21?

1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him. 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

What all that is, is that AT THAT TIME both assemblies of God had THEN been on Earth.

The MJ's assembly (James, Cephas, John and their followers "the circumcision") diminishing away with Israel - TEMPORARILY - with Unbelieving Israel's TEMPORARY fall...and TEMPORARY setting aside...

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

What other evidences are there that the Twelve and their converts remained under the Law?

Also; why?
 

Interplanner

New member
The Twelve and their converts REMAINED under the Law.

How long?

Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

24:20 But pray your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Years later, He had still not returned. And we read...

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

What about the Gentiles?

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

MJs confuse that as referring to Sheva Mitzvot B'nei Noach, or the Noahide Laws Gentiles are supposedly under, this side of the Cross.

The Apostle of the Gentiles: Paul, would beg to differ as to that which James is talking about as James had no authority over the Gentiles' diet.

Galatians 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: ) 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

Paul's instruction to the Gentiles regarding the dietary issue James mentioned to Paul in Acts 21?

1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him. 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

What all that is, is that AT THAT TIME both assemblies of God had THEN been on Earth.

The MJ's assembly (James, Cephas, John and their followers "the circumcision") diminishing away with Israel - TEMPORARILY - with Unbelieving Israel's TEMPORARY fall...and TEMPORARY setting aside...

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

What other evidences are there that the Twelve and their converts remained under the Law?

Also; why?



What are MJs?

The reason some of them stay under the ceremonial/dietary is peer pressure. They imperfectly graduated from it. It had huge momentum, and I wouldn't expect them to break clean, but obviously they broke enough to be in conflict with Judaism's leaders ('they teach against the law and this place.').

Ever after the seminar, they still thought there was going to be a restoration of Israel, which Judaism taught was contingent upon the purity of practice. The mission took over in power.

The material in rom 11 is not about a restoration of Israel. It is prodding and urging to be in the mission that is obviously Israel's destiny, as explained in the middle of ch 10.

The 'all Israel saved' is not about a temporary setting aside. The setting aside of all ethnes is permanent. God is no longer doing 'old covenant' types of moves with any nation. There is just the believers or not. He already introduced another Israel which has the Gentile believers in it in 9. (After that there are some lines about Israel the ethne, in the negative in 9-11). That's what is justified from their sins. Saved does not mean a restoration. In all of this passage, saved is justification and a bit of sanctification with that.

That is why the expression about all Israel starts with 'And so' which is 'In this partly blinded manner...' That is the resolution to why dealings with Israel are no longer 100% any direction. Those who are believers are blessed and are part of God's tree (previous analogy). Those who are not believers, are not. No more ethnes or deals with them.

Can I just say, your Mt 10 quote immediately after saying you were going to show the converts under the Law is just about nowhere mentally. Why wouldn't you naturally spend your time in a passage where there is at least the expression UNDER THE LAW??? Gal 4!!!

Rom 11 ends on the fact of the same treatment of both Jew and Gentile in the Gospel and on a God who cannot be made to owe anything, in the doxology there.
 

Interplanner

New member
Danoh,
that line from Mt 24 about the sabbath... Don't you see what's going on? If the believers move about the country on a sabbath to save their necks, they might get impounded by the sabbath police who were enforcing the law that way around Israel at that time. Taliban-like. And you want to show the believers as being 'under the law'?

You're out of touch on this one.
 

Danoh

New member
What are MJs?

The reason some of them stay under the ceremonial/dietary is peer pressure. They imperfectly graduated from it. It had huge momentum, and I wouldn't expect them to break clean, but obviously they broke enough to be in conflict with Judaism's leaders ('they teach against the law and this place.').

Ever after the seminar, they still thought there was going to be a restoration of Israel, which Judaism taught was contingent upon the purity of practice. The mission took over in power.

The material in rom 11 is not about a restoration of Israel. It is prodding and urging to be in the mission that is obviously Israel's destiny, as explained in the middle of ch 10.

The 'all Israel saved' is not about a temporary setting aside. The setting aside of all ethnes is permanent. God is no longer doing 'old covenant' types of moves with any nation. There is just the believers or not. He already introduced another Israel which has the Gentile believers in it in 9. (After that there are some lines about Israel the ethne, in the negative in 9-11). That's what is justified from their sins. Saved does not mean a restoration. In all of this passage, saved is justification and a bit of sanctification with that.

That is why the expression about all Israel starts with 'And so' which is 'In this partly blinded manner...' That is the resolution to why dealings with Israel are no longer 100% any direction. Those who are believers are blessed and are part of God's tree (previous analogy). Those who are not believers, are not. No more ethnes or deals with them.

Can I just say, your Mt 10 quote immediately after saying you were going to show the converts under the Law is just about nowhere mentally. Why wouldn't you naturally spend your time in a passage where there is at least the expression UNDER THE LAW??? Gal 4!!!

Rom 11 ends on the fact of the same treatment of both Jew and Gentile in the Gospel and on a God who cannot be made to owe anything, in the doxology there.

:chuckle:
 

TweetyBird

New member
Galatians 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.


Perhaps you can explain why so called "Law observant" Paul did not go up to Jerusalem for the 3 required yearly feasts for 14 years.
 

TweetyBird

New member
The Twelve and their converts REMAINED under the Law.


What about the Gentiles?

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

MJs confuse that as referring to Sheva Mitzvot B'nei Noach, or the Noahide Laws Gentiles are supposedly under, this side of the Cross.

B'nei Noah is not the 4 commandments of Acts 15.

This is B'nei Noah:

The seven Noachide laws, as traditionally enumerated are:

Do Not Deny God
Do Not Blaspheme God
Do Not Murder
Do Not Engage in Incestuous, Adulterous or Homosexual Relationships.
Do Not Steal
Do Not Eat of a Live Animal
Establish Courts/Legal System to Ensure Law Obedience



The MJ's assembly (James, Cephas, John and their followers "the circumcision") diminishing away with Israel - TEMPORARILY - with Unbelieving Israel's TEMPORARY fall...and TEMPORARY setting aside...

The disciples were not part of Messianic Judaism [MJ]. You are confusing terms.

What other evidences are there that the Twelve and their converts remained under the Law?

Also; why?

There are none. Not single one in the entire NT.
 

Interplanner

New member
You said the disciples and their converts remained under the Law. So why did Paul and the disciples willingly rebel against it?



I don't know if rebel is the right word, because they were preserving the ethical. Gamaliel and Hillel differed on divorce, but I don't recall Hillel's view being called rebellious and it was what Jesus taught. Gamaliel had succumbed to carnal convenience by allowing divorce for 'any and every reason.'
 

Danoh

New member
I don't know if rebel is the right word, because they were preserving the ethical. Gamaliel and Hillel differed on divorce, but I don't recall Hillel's view being called rebellious and it was what Jesus taught. Gamaliel had succumbed to carnal convenience by allowing divorce for 'any and every reason.'

:thumb:
 

TweetyBird

New member
I don't know if rebel is the right word, because they were preserving the ethical. Gamaliel and Hillel differed on divorce, but I don't recall Hillel's view being called rebellious and it was what Jesus taught. Gamaliel had succumbed to carnal convenience by allowing divorce for 'any and every reason.'

LOL ... Jesus did not teach "Hillel" ... :rotfl::dizzy::darwinsm:
 

Interplanner

New member
LOL ... Jesus did not teach "Hillel" ... :rotfl::dizzy::darwinsm:



He did. On two points that we know of:

1, Hillel had a negatively-put version of the 'Golden Rule.' "Do not do to anyone what you would not want done to yourself."
2, Hillel opposed Gamaliel about reasons for divorce. He said the same thing Jesus did. It was only allowed for violation of fidelity by a marriage partner, found to be before or after marriage.

One other often-quoted line from Hillel is entirely original, not found in Jesus' teaching: "If not now, when? If not me, then who? And I, if I am only for myself, what am I?
 

TweetyBird

New member
He did. On two points that we know of:

1, Hillel had a negatively-put version of the 'Golden Rule.' "Do not do to anyone what you would not want done to yourself."
2, Hillel opposed Gamaliel about reasons for divorce. He said the same thing Jesus did. It was only allowed for violation of fidelity by a marriage partner, found to be before or after marriage.

One other often-quoted line from Hillel is entirely original, not found in Jesus' teaching: "If not now, when? If not me, then who? And I, if I am only for myself, what am I?

Nope, Jesus did not get His teachings from Hillel. Jesus clearly stated that everything He said and did was given to Him by His Father. Secondly, it was established during Jesus' ministry that He did not study under any teacher. The quote "Do not do to anyone what you would not want done to yourself" is actually attributed to Confucius, 500BCE
 

Interplanner

New member
Nope, Jesus did not get His teachings from Hillel. Jesus clearly stated that everything He said and did was given to Him by His Father. Secondly, it was established during Jesus' ministry that He did not study under any teacher. The quote "Do not do to anyone what you would not want done to yourself" is actually attributed to Confucius, 500BCE


I don't know what your point is. Those are the ONLY two items mentioned in Judaic background books; it is not as though they are attempting to water down the whole thing. He did sit in the temple as a kid at times. I hope you don't have the same reaction to general history, because Luke is crammed with it; it shows that the NT accounts are historical in exactly the same sense. They would seem phony if they did not have such references.

I did not say he got his teachings from Hillel, as though it were all of them.

As I recall, Hillel was about 20 years older, so I doubt if Hillel got his divorce belief from Christ and then was recorded as though from himself, but it is possible.

Are you going to slam Paul for quoting Greek poets in Titus, or for what he said at the Aeropagus in Acts 17?

As for 'do not do...' that is also in Judaica that reference Hillel. If you have a source on Confucius, fine, but Hillel did say it, and I doubt very much he was quoting Confucius when he did so.
 

TweetyBird

New member
I don't know what your point is. Those are the ONLY two items mentioned in Judaic background books; it is not as though they are attempting to water down the whole thing. He did sit in the temple as a kid at times. I hope you don't have the same reaction to general history, because Luke is crammed with it; it shows that the NT accounts are historical in exactly the same sense. They would seem phony if they did not have such references.

I did not say he got his teachings from Hillel, as though it were all of them.

As I recall, Hillel was about 20 years older, so I doubt if Hillel got his divorce belief from Christ and then was recorded as though from himself, but it is possible.

Are you going to slam Paul for quoting Greek poets in Titus, or for what he said at the Aeropagus in Acts 17?

As for 'do not do...' that is also in Judaica that reference Hillel. If you have a source on Confucius, fine, but Hillel did say it, and I doubt very much he was quoting Confucius when he did so.

What Judaic background books?

I am not referring to history recorded by Luke or what Paul taught, etc. I am referring to the teachings of our Lord and Savior, who clearly stated that He only said/taught what God told Him to. I don't think God had to visit Hillel's teachings and go - oh, that sounds like a plan, let's give that to My Son so people can think He is reworking what Hillel said. Do you see the congruity of that? Or am I just a fool to think that God has His own "original" teachings?
 

Interplanner

New member
What Judaic background books?

I am not referring to history recorded by Luke or what Paul taught, etc. I am referring to the teachings of our Lord and Savior, who clearly stated that He only said/taught what God told Him to. I don't think God had to visit Hillel's teachings and go - oh, that sounds like a plan, let's give that to My Son so people can think He is reworking what Hillel said. Do you see the congruity of that? Or am I just a fool to think that God has His own "original" teachings?


I wasn't saying that he 'consulted' with anyone, but he was raised at a certain time, and other people's sayings are sometimes included, and Gamaliel did make a wise remark in Acts 5 that Luke records, so for the most part Christ's teaching is from the Father, but in areas like marriage or other odds and ends, there may be other common sense teaching out there.

Hillel would have been trying to stay as close to Moses as possible, and had an issue with the Gamaliel school about divorce, whether he heard or interacted with Christ or not.

Try to make the Bible as much a part of its times as you can; it makes more sense, not less.
 
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