ECT Twelve New Testament Scriptures Dispensationalists Try To Ignore

Lighthouse

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
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northwye said:
In "the argument" - between dispensationalism-Christian Zionism - what is being argued has to be made clear. Arguing for the sake of argument - to win an argument - should not be done. And is "the argument" about what dispensationalism teaches or about how what it teaches is different from scripture? There is a lot of room for confgusion here.
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One has to know what both teach to know if they differ.

The distinction between Israel, as always meaning Old Covenant Israel, is very important in dispensationalism-Christian Zionism.
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Seeing as how you haven't shown any dispensationalist saying that I can only assume you're full of bologna.

Charles Ryrie’s Basis of the Premillennial Faith of 1953 shows this to be true.

An online copy of this book is at: http://bartimaeus.us/pub_dom/premille.html

Ryrie says "That natural Israel and the Gentiles are contrasted in the New
Testament is seen from the fact that Israel is addressed as a nation after
the Church has been established. Peter recognized this distinction, for he,
"filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them Ye rulers of the people, and
elders of Israel" (Acts 4:8; cf. Acts 3:12a; 21:28; Rom. 10:1). It should
be perfectly evident from these verses that natural Israel and Gentiles are
contrasted in the New Testament.'

The distinction between physical Israel- "by the bloodline - from the church is so important to dispensationalism-Christian Zionism that Ryrie says there is a Physical Israel New Covenant which is different from the New Covenant with the church.

"The most common view among premillennialists concerning the new
covenant is that which is set forth in the notes of the Scofield Reference
Bible. This interpretation holds that the one new covenant has two aspects,
one which applies to Israel, and one which applies to the church. These
have been called the realistic and spiritual aspects of the covenant, but
both aspects comprise essentially one covenant based on the sacrifice of
the Lord Jesus Christ.

The third form which premillennial interpretation takes is that which
distinguishes the new covenant with Israel from the new covenant with the
Church. This view finds two new covenants in which the promises to Israel
and the promises to the Church are more sharply distinguished even though
both new covenants are based on the one sacrifice of Christ. This view does
not differ essentially from the view that holds that there are two aspects
to the one covenant, but it at least shows that the Scripture will support
a sharp distinction between Israel and the Church which further strengthens
the premillennial position. One cannot see that the one covenant, two
aspects interpretation absolutely contradicts the entire

pp108

Thirdly, that the Old Testament teaches that the new covenant is for
Israel is also seen by the fact that in its establishment the perpetuity of
the nation Israel and her restoration to the land is vitally linked with it
(Jer. 31:35-40). The Church is never called a nation, and the national
aspect of this covenant concerns an earthly people.

However, since the New Testament will support two new
covenants, is it not more consistent premillennialism to consider that
Israel and the Church each has a new covenant?"

"First of all, Israel is regathered from all the ends of the earth
whither they have been scattered. They are judged by the Lord in the
wilderness according to the prophecy of Ezekiel, and restored in blessing
to their own land, there to be a blessing to all the nations of the earth.
Second, many Gentiles are saved out of the Great Tribulation."

"The Church will be taken out of the earth at the rapture at which time
God's program for the Jew will be resumed and continue from where it was at
the time of Christ's death.... [The millennium] will simply be a
continuation of the old order, this time with Christ accepted as and
reigning as King. The Jews will continue their animal sacrifices in worship
as they did before Christ died. It is true that these sacrifices will be
types and symbols of their faith in Christ's death, but that does not make
them nonetheless real. '
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And here you show it being said that the Israel which differs from the "church" is under a New Covenant, which separates them from the Old Covenant. Well, you are just full of failure, aren't you?
 
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northwye

New member
In his book THE BASIS OF THE PREMILLENNIAL FAITH,1953,
Charles C. Ryrie quotes Galatians 6: 15-16 and then gives it a dispensationalist spin:

Galatians 6:15-16: "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor
uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this
rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."

"In this passage the question is, who is the Israel of God? The
amillennialist asserts that the Israel of God is the entire body which is
the Church. If this could be sustained it would weaken the premillennial
position considerably. However, the very opposite is the truth, for instead
of identification there is distinction in this passage. The apostle is
singling out believing Jews in this benediction pronounced upon the entire
body of Christ which, of course, includes these Jews."

Ryrie identifies the opposition to dispensationalism as amillennialism, which is the Catholic and,for some, the Calvinist position on end time Bible prophesy. Not all who hold to the "PREMILLENNIAL" position on end time prophecy are dispensationalists. He over-simplifies, and in doing so distorts or misrepresents the opposition to dispensationalism.

And for dispensationalims, there is no remnant, that is no remnant of the church,which is true in scripture. There is only a remnant of Israel, which is seen in the 144,000 and in Revelation 12: 17.

"From the time of Christ’s rejection by Israel until the time when God deals specifically with Israel again in the seventieth week it is not possible to refer to a remnant of the nation Israel." Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, 1965, by J. Dwight Pentecost

But - all of Old Covenant Israel did not reject Christ, the multitude did and dispensationalism is only interested in the multitude,not in the remnant of Israel. NT Scripture says there is a remnant.

Ryrie says of Galatians 6:15-16 that "...instead
of identification there is distinction in this passage. The apostle is
singling out believing Jews in this benediction pronounced upon the entire
body of Christ which, of course, includes these Jews."

Wait a minute. Ryrie is "singling out believing Jews" here "in this benediction pronounced upon the entire body of Christ" which"includes these Jews."

Of course,in Paul's time, the believing Jews were the remnant of Israel, and a part of the Israel of God,or the Israel which is of God,as being different from the children of the flesh (unbeliving physical Israel) who in Romans 9: 8 are said not to be the children of God.

What Ryrie may be trying to do here is defend against the idea that believing non-Jews can be called Israel,something which basically contradicts dispensationalism. But Ryrie implies believing non-Jews are part of the Israel of God in what he says. He is, in his commentary,not allowing Galatians 6:16 to speak clearly and simply that everyone,regardless of bloodline,who is in Christ is the Israel of God.

Ryrie,following what Lewis S. Chafer says about dispensationalism changing scripture,is changing the meanings of scripture to fit dispensationalism.
 
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DAN P

Well-known member
northwye said:
Many of the people who have come to reject dispensationalism-Christian Zionism were once followers of that theology. In fact, it may be that some who once had a great zeal for the theology have come out of it and are now critical of it.

And those I have known personally who woke up and realized that it is a false set of doctrines, and have some love of the truth rather than a love of that theology, were once in protestant denominations that have been taken over by dispensationalism. One guy who began broadcasting on short wave back in the mid nineties came out of Cavalry Chapel under Chuck Snith and has had a show on the Internet since then in which he is often critical of dispensationalism.

You can find a large number of links to writings critical of dispensationalism on the Internet through a search engine, something it appears that the dispensationalists on these Christian forums do not seem to know about. They seem to act as though only a very few "misguided" individuals oppose the theology.

Which people now in dispenmsationalism are more likely to come out of it is not easy to identify - and this is another reason for those who offer scriptures which do not support that theology not to get into personal attacks, which stir up negative feelings, and take the focus away from scripture and put it on individuals.

And few in dispensationalism seem to acknowledge that there are many who realize the doctrines of dispensation do not agree with scripture, which may be a trait of cultists, not to admit that large numbers of Christians do not agree with the cult line, even though that number is a remnant - and growing.
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Hi and if you can answer Gal 3:28 , which you say dispies ignore and IF can not say why we do , will you say what Gal 3:28 really means OR just say I can not , so you go aheand and reply !!

dan p
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
I don't know why Israel would be in its land without practicing Judaism and I don't know what the point of that would be X000 years after the Gospel and the letter to Hebrews, but you are welcome to try.
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1. It was promised
2. To do what Adam failed to do
3. To restore the years the locust had eaten


Abandon your skepticism, embrace belief.
 
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northwye

New member
Here is another quote from Charles Ryrie in his 1953 book, The Premillennial Faith: "Finally there is the mystery of the rapture. The idea of resurrection
was not unknown to Old Testament saints, but the idea of the translation of
living saints at the rapture was the mystery revealed through Paul in First
Corinthians 15:51-52. This passage cannot refer to the Second Coming of
Christ because that event was not a mystery unrevealed in the Old
Testament. The reference is to something distinct, that is, the rapture of
the Church before the tribulation."

Say what???

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"I Corinthians 15: 51-55

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15.For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16.For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17.Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." I Thessalonians 4: 14-17

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6: 39, 40, 44, 54

I Corinthians 15: 51-55, I Thessalonians 4: 17 and John 6:39-54 are talking about the same event,and in five verses of this prophecy of Christ's appearing scripture says it occurs at the last trumpet and at the last day,not before the beginning of the tribulation..

John Darby is said to have started the pre-trib rapture theory,though Edward Irving had earlier translated Jesuit Manuel De Lacunza's book,"The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty"into English. Lacunza's book dealt with futurism,and other ideas of what was to become dispensationalist theory,including an anti-Christ. Darby may have gotten some of his basic ideas from Irving's translation.

Darby claimed, without explicit support from scripture, that the dispensation of Law goes back into effect at the beginning of the tribulation. He claimed or postulated without biblical evidence, that the age of Law had ended at the
cross and an age of grace began at that time. Then at
the seven year tribulation he said the age of Law goes back into effect and the church age of grace ends. This created a problem for Darby's theory. How can the age of Law return if the Church is still here? The age of Law is an
age in which God dealt with Israel by use of the law, but he deals with the church by grace. And in the tribulation or afterwards God returns to the dispensation of law. Probably the Church would not want to leave Grace and come under the Law. So Darby invented the idea of a pre-trib rapture to get the church out of the way. .
 
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Danoh

New member
northwye said:
Here is another quote from Charles Ryrie in his 1953 book, The Premillennial Faith: "Finally there is the mystery of the rapture. The idea of resurrection
was not unknown to Old Testament saints, but the idea of the translation of
living saints at the rapture was the mystery revealed through Paul in First
Corinthians 15:51-52. This passage cannot refer to the Second Coming of
Christ because that event was not a mystery unrevealed in the Old
Testament. The reference is to something distinct, that is, the rapture of
the Church before the tribulation."

Say what???

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"I Corinthians 15: 51-55

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15.For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16.For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17.Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." I Thessalonians 4: 14-17

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6: 39, 40, 44, 54

I Corinthians 15: 51-55, I Thessalonians 4: 17 and John 6:39-54 are talking about the same event,and in five verses of this prophecy of Christ's appearing scripture says it occurs at the last trumpet and at the last day,not before the beginning of the tribulation..
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You might as well be talking about why some political candidate running for office decades ago, is right for the country right now and we should all vote for him.

For you continue to harp on about what Acts 2 Dispys hold to...on a site where the overwhelming majority of Dispys (if not all...) hold to a Mid-Acts or Acts 9 Dispensationalism...not to the Acts 2...you keep going on about...

You...are obviously delusional :chuckle:
 
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Danoh

New member
DAN P said:
Hi , and we know that is SO , as they are STRUCK in the OT and it is easy DEFEAT them , and Danoh likes to CODDLE THEM !!

Like he says ONE SIZE FITS THEM , don't we see !!

dan p
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I've learned much of use from the opposition, and continue to.

Try it some time.
 
1Mind1Spirit

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Danoh said:
You might as well be talking about why some political candidate running for office decades ago, is right for the country right now and we should all vote for him.

For you continue to harp on about what Acts 2 Dispys hold to...on a site where the overwhelming majority of Dispys (if not all...) hold to a Mid-Acts or Acts 9 Dispensationalism...not to the Acts 2...you keep going on about...

You...are obviously delusional :chuckle:
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You might have a leg to stand on if Mid Acts Dispy's would quit proof texting with Acts 2 assertions.

Problem is.... it can't be done. :chuckle:
 
1Mind1Spirit

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
DAN P said:
Hi and if you can answer Gal 3:28 , which you say dispies ignore and IF can not say why we do , will you say what Gal 3:28 really means OR just say I can not , so you go aheand and reply !!

dan p
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All he would need to do is double post,you shoulda learned to read english before trying yer hand at greek..
 
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