TweetyBird
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The Holy Spirit was poured out, came upon, filled others long before Pentecost - they did not speak in tongues, nor was it proof of the "new birth".
Tongues are the initial sign of the new birth
- Thread starter Jdorman
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The Holy Spirit was poured out, came upon, filled others long before Pentecost - they did not speak in tongues, nor was it proof of the "new birth".
No, the Bible talks about tongues being as the Holy Spirit gives the utterance. Any imitation by an evil spirit is NOT tongues and does not disprove the real deal.
SimpleMan77
New member
God selectively allowed prophets to have the indwelling Holy Ghost before Pentecost. But it wasn't poured out upon all flesh until Pentecost.
Once it was poured out, the promise of that exact gift was to "you, and to your children, and to those that are afar off, EVEN AS MANY AS THE LORD OUR GOD SHALL CALL".
The offer for the gift and the promise was never withdrawn.
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The gift of diverse kinds of tongues.
This is the ability to speak in languages not understood by the speaker. It is not to be confused with the speaking with tongues that occurs when one is baptized with the Holy Spirit. We know this for the following reasons: (1) Holy Spirit baptism is for all (Acts 2:39; 5:32; 1 Cor. 12:13); the gift of diverse kinds of tongues is not for all (1 Cor. 12:11, 28, 30); (2) the speaking with tongues in Acts 2, 10, and 19 does not fit the divine order of 1 Cor. 14:27.
The gift of the interpretation of tongues.
This gift is the ability to interpret words previously spoken in a language unknown to the speaker and to the person to whom this gift is given. It is important to know that this gift involves interpretation, not translation. This gift does not necessarily enable a word-for-word rendering; it captures the essence of meaning in the vocabulary and grammatical styling of the recipient of this gift.
The gifts of the Spirit are not intended to draw attention to the gifted person, and they are to be practiced “decently and in order” (1 Cor. 14:40). This order is described by Paul in 1 Cor. 12–14. Their purpose is to edify—to build up and to strengthen—the church (1 Cor. 14:4–5, 12, 26). Spiritual gifts are not to be forbidden or despised. To do so would be to quench the Spirit (1 Thess. 5:19–20; 1 Cor. 14:39).
—Daniel L. Segraves
Johnston, R., & Alexander, L. A. (Eds.). (2014). Apostolic Study Bible: King James Version: Notes (Standard Edition, p. 1848). Hazelwood, MO: Word Aflame Press.
This is the ability to speak in languages not understood by the speaker. It is not to be confused with the speaking with tongues that occurs when one is baptized with the Holy Spirit. We know this for the following reasons: (1) Holy Spirit baptism is for all (Acts 2:39; 5:32; 1 Cor. 12:13); the gift of diverse kinds of tongues is not for all (1 Cor. 12:11, 28, 30); (2) the speaking with tongues in Acts 2, 10, and 19 does not fit the divine order of 1 Cor. 14:27.
The gift of the interpretation of tongues.
This gift is the ability to interpret words previously spoken in a language unknown to the speaker and to the person to whom this gift is given. It is important to know that this gift involves interpretation, not translation. This gift does not necessarily enable a word-for-word rendering; it captures the essence of meaning in the vocabulary and grammatical styling of the recipient of this gift.
The gifts of the Spirit are not intended to draw attention to the gifted person, and they are to be practiced “decently and in order” (1 Cor. 14:40). This order is described by Paul in 1 Cor. 12–14. Their purpose is to edify—to build up and to strengthen—the church (1 Cor. 14:4–5, 12, 26). Spiritual gifts are not to be forbidden or despised. To do so would be to quench the Spirit (1 Thess. 5:19–20; 1 Cor. 14:39).
—Daniel L. Segraves
Johnston, R., & Alexander, L. A. (Eds.). (2014). Apostolic Study Bible: King James Version: Notes (Standard Edition, p. 1848). Hazelwood, MO: Word Aflame Press.
TweetyBird
New member
The Holy Spirit was poured out on them. It was not salvific.
The Holy Spirit indwells when one believes - that is part of salvation. It is not a separate process that one must watch for or pray for or seek for.
Eph 1
12 that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Contradicting yourself does not give any credibility to it. If you have to explain it with conjecture, it's not the truth. It has become the standard in the tongue talkers community to use this verse as proof of tongues for all who believe. It's not in the text, and protesting it just "must have happened" is just wanna beism.
That is once again, your opinion, but has absolutely no Scriptural basis.
We are told when one believes they receive the Holy Spirit. It is not an added process. If one does not have the Holy Spirit when they believe, they are not saved, not born again, do not have the Spirit of Christ and are not one of His. The pouring out, infilling, coming upon of the Holy Spirit is not "getting the Holy Spirit indwelt" and then making noises with your mouth to prove it. NONE of that happened in the Biblical record. Not once. Not ever.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Rom 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
1 John 4
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
John 14
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
John 4
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 7
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
depends on how you define miracle
How does the Bible define Tongues?
If miracle is being defined as in act of God then an evil spirit could do no such thing.
If miracle is being defined as anything supernatural that seemingly has a positive outcome. Then an evil spirit could do that as an initiation of something from God. It would not be a biblical miracle and would not disprove the real thing... just like tongues
Nope, this is the initial sign of the new birth.
John 13:35New King James Version (NKJV)
35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
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SimpleMan77
New member
Tongues are the initial sign of the new birth
Actually Paul asked disciples "have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believe?".
This flatly disagrees with, and clearly disproves your statement.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say you get the Holy Ghost when you believe.
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Actually Paul asked disciples "have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believe?".
This flatly disagrees with, and clearly disproves your statement.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say you get the Holy Ghost when you believe.
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TweetyBird
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Because there have been none in evidence since the first century.
TweetyBird
New member
There are no extra experiences of salvation. That is so not Biblical. When you are saved, that is the most miraculous thing that happens to a person on earth. Don't belittle the sacrifice of Christ by making His gift a process that requires extra steps.
TweetyBird
New member
If one does not have the Holy Spirit the moment they believe, they are not saved. We do not believe in Christ and then wait in limbo for the Holy Spirit to infill us. There is no Scripture for that in any way.
The NT definitely is not saying that the disciples can give someone salvation by giving them the Holy Spirit. That only comes from God Himself though His Spirit - it's called being born again of Spirit and Water. The experience of the infilling and pouring out was not salvation, nor an indication of salvation. The OT and NT indicate that the Holy Spirit was poured out on and filled people before Pentecost. The infllling, pouring out upon, coming upon people with the Holy Spirit was a manifestation of the Spirit for a specific purpose of either a sign or an empowerment to do something appointed by God. It was not salvific.
Secondly, if you believe that an infilling is salvific, then you are stating every time the apostles were filled with the Spirit, they were saved all over again with a re-baptism of the Holy Spirit and new tongues.
TweetyBird
New member
There is no evidence of it, no record of it for almost 2000 years. Then all of a sudden, someone conjurs up some spirit and calls it the gifts of the spirit in the last 100 years and it spreads like wildfire, because everyone wants power at their fingertips so they can be like God. Does that make sense to you?
SimpleMan77
New member
It was absolutely a sign that the Bible specifically says accompanied the infilling of the Holy Ghost in 3 out of the 4 accounts in the book of Acts (4 times it specifically says people or groups were filled with the Holy Ghost).
On the other account (where it isn't specifically mentioned), Phillip knew they hadn't received the Holy Ghost, even though they had received the word, had great joy, and had been baptized.
When they finally did receive the Holy Ghost, probably days after believing, there was visible evidence, the Bible just doesn't say what that visible evidence was.
Those are the facts. Feel free to show me scripture disproving any point (in other words find one place in the book of Acts where it tells the account of someone receiving the Holy Ghost, where it doesn't mention visible evidence)
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TweetyBird
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Jesus was not born of God. He is God.
TweetyBird
New member
No He didn't. He promised it. It was not a teaching. The apostles were commanded to preach the Gospel, not teach tongues. Tongues was given by God for a specific limited purpose. There have been no tongues since the first and 2nd centuries.
SimpleMan77
New member
So you can prove that no Christians during that time spoke with tongues???
If some tribe in the Amazon gets a Bible tomorrow, reads that they can receive the Holy Ghost, and start speaking in tongues, are you saying that just because they hadn't heard about it before that it means that it didn't happen anywhere before that?
History tells about high profile religions. Roman Catholicism, Orthodox Churches, the reformation, all of which made big ripples.
It would not have recorded the small groups here and there, regardless of whether they spoke in tongues or not.
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TweetyBird
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The Holy Spirit is the same OT and NT. He most certainly infilled people, was poured on them, and came upon them in several instances OT and NT before Pentecost.
The pouring out of the Holy Spirit was not the gift to "you and your children. It is the Holy Spirit Himself who indwells when one believes.
SimpleMan77
New member
Tongues are the initial sign of the new birth
The Holy Spirit is God's gift of Himself to us. The same in every generation.
The promise of Joel, which was fulfilled at the Day of Pentecost" was that your son's and daughters, servants and handmaidens would have God's Spirit poured on them, which had never happened on a broad scale.
Peter said that "the promise is unto you, and unto your children, and into them that are afar off (usually a term used to describe Gentiles), even as many as the Lord our God shall call (includes us today)".
The only promise he mentioned before making that statement was "you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost".
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The Holy Spirit is God's gift of Himself to us. The same in every generation.
The promise of Joel, which was fulfilled at the Day of Pentecost" was that your son's and daughters, servants and handmaidens would have God's Spirit poured on them, which had never happened on a broad scale.
Peter said that "the promise is unto you, and unto your children, and into them that are afar off (usually a term used to describe Gentiles), even as many as the Lord our God shall call (includes us today)".
The only promise he mentioned before making that statement was "you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost".
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TweetyBird
New member
There is only "one" tongues - the gift of tongues. There is no such thing as a private prayer language.
The point the author made is proof that tongues and the gifts of the Spirit are not for today, because they most definitely are practiced by those who have them in order to appear more specical, have greater faith, love God more, have more knowledge of God, have a deeper spirituality and a deeper relationship than those who do not have the gifts. The gifts today edify self, they do not edify the body. They persuade people that unless they have most of them, they are losers.