Thermodynamics and "Open" Systems

bob b

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This article is a bit long but I don't have a link.

Evolution's Thermodynamic Failure
By Granville Sewell
Published 12/28/2005 12:05:33 AM
In the current debate over "Intelligent Design," the strongest argument offered by opponents of design is this: we have scientific explanations for most everything else in Nature, what is special about evolution? The layman understands quite well that explaining the appearance of human brains is a very different sort of problem from finding the causes of earthquakes; however, to express this difference in terms a scientist can understand requires a discussion of the second law of thermodynamics.

The first formulations of the second law were all about heat: a quantity called thermal "entropy" was defined to measure the randomness, or disorder, associated with a temperature distribution, and it was shown that in an isolated system this entropy always increases, or at least never decreases, as the temperature becomes more and more randomly (more uniformly) distributed. If we define thermal "order" to be the opposite (negative) of thermal entropy, we can say that the thermal order can never increase in a closed (isolated) system. However, it was soon realized that other types of order can be defined which also never increase in a closed system. For example, we can define a "carbon order" associated with the distribution of carbon diffusing in a solid, using the same equations, and through an identical analysis show that this order also continually decreases, in a closed system. With time, the second law came to be interpreted more and more generally, and today most discussions of the second law in physics textbooks offer examples of entropy increases (order decreases) which have nothing to do with heat conduction or diffusion, such as the shattering of a wine glass or the demolition of a building.

It is a well-known prediction of the second law that, in a closed system, every type of order is unstable and must eventually decrease, as everything tends toward more probable (more random) states. Not only will carbon and temperature distributions become more disordered (more uniform), but the performance of all electronic devices will deteriorate, not improve. Natural forces, such as corrosion, erosion, fire and explosions, do not create order, they destroy it. The second law is all about probability, it uses probability at the microscopic level to predict macroscopic change: the reason carbon distributes itself more and more uniformly in an insulated solid is, that is what the laws of probability predict when diffusion alone is operative.

The reason natural forces may turn a spaceship, or a TV set, or a computer into a pile of rubble but not vice-versa is also probability: of all the possible arrangements atoms could take, only a very small percentage could fly to the moon and back, or receive pictures and sound from the other side of the Earth, or add, subtract, multiply and divide real numbers with high accuracy.

The discovery that life on Earth developed through evolutionary "steps," coupled with the observation that mutations and natural selection -- like other natural forces -- can cause (minor) change, is widely accepted in the scientific world as proof that natural selection -- alone among all natural forces -- can create order out of disorder, and even design human brains with human consciousness. Only the layman seems to see the problem with this logic. In a recent Mathematical Intelligencer article ("A Mathematician's View of Evolution," 22, number 4, 5-7, 2000), after outlining the specific reasons why it is not reasonable to attribute the major steps in the development of life to natural selection, I asserted that the idea that the four fundamental forces of physics alone could rearrange the fundamental particles of nature into spaceships, nuclear power plants, and computers, connected to laser printers, CRTs, keyboards and the Internet, appears to violate the second law of thermodynamics in a spectacular way.

Anyone who has made such an argument is familiar with the standard reply: the Earth is an open system, it receives energy from the sun, and order can increase in an open system, as long as it is "compensated" somehow by a comparable or greater decrease outside the system. S. Angrist and L. Hepler, for example, in Order and Chaos (Basic Books, 1967), write, "In a certain sense the development of civilization may appear contradictory to the second law.... Even though society can effect local reductions in entropy, the general and universal trend of entropy increase easily swamps the anomalous but important efforts of civilized man. Each localized, man-made or machine-made entropy decrease is accompanied by a greater increase in entropy of the surroundings, thereby maintaining the required increase in total entropy."

According to this reasoning, then, the second law does not prevent scrap metal from reorganizing itself into a computer in one room, as long as two computers in the next room are rusting into scrap metal -- and the door is open. In Appendix D of my new book, The Numerical Solution of Ordinary and Partial Differential Equations, second edition, (John Wiley & Sons, 2005) I take a closer look at the equation for entropy change, which applies not only to thermal entropy but also to the entropy associated with anything else that diffuses, and show that it does not simply say that order cannot increase in a closed system. It also says that in an open system, order cannot increase faster than it is imported through the boundary. According to this equation, the thermal order in an open system can decrease in two different ways -- it can be converted to disorder, or it can be exported through the boundary. It can increase in only one way: by importation through the boundary. Similarly, the increase in "carbon order" in an open system cannot be greater than the carbon order imported through the boundary, and the increase in "chromium order" cannot be greater than the chromium order imported through the boundary, and so on.

In these simple examples, I assumed nothing but heat conduction or diffusion was going on, but for more general situations, I offered the tautology that "if an increase in order is extremely improbable when a system is closed, it is still extremely improbable when the system is open, unless something is entering which makes it not extremely improbable." The fact that order is disappearing in the next room does not make it any easier for computers to appear in our room -- unless this order is disappearing into our room, and then only if it is a type of order that makes the appearance of computers not extremely improbable, for example, computers. Importing thermal order will make the temperature distribution less random, and importing carbon order will make the carbon distribution less random, but neither makes the formation of computers more probable.

What happens in a closed system depends on the initial conditions; what happens in an open system depends on the boundary conditions as well. As I wrote in "Can ANYTHING Happen in an Open System?" (The Mathematical Intelligencer 23, number 4, 8-10, 2001), "order can increase in an open system, not because the laws of probability are suspended when the door is open, but simply because order may walk in through the door.... If we found evidence that DNA, auto parts, computer chips, and books entered through the Earth's atmosphere at some time in the past, then perhaps the appearance of humans, cars, computers, and encyclopedias on a previously barren planet could be explained without postulating a violation of the second law here (it would have been violated somewhere else!). But if all we see entering is radiation and meteorite fragments, it seems clear that what is entering through the boundary cannot explain the increase in order observed here."


THE EVOLUTIONIST, therefore, cannot avoid the question of probability by saying that anything can happen in an open system, he is finally forced to argue that it only seems extremely improbable, but really isn't, that atoms would rearrange themselves into spaceships and computers and TV sets.

Darwinists believe they have already discovered the source of all this order, so let us look more closely at their theory. The traditional argument against Darwinism is that natural selection cannot guide the development of new organs and new systems of organs -- i.e., the development of new orders, classes and phyla -- through their initial useless stages, during which they provide no selective advantage. Natural selection may be able to darken the wings of a moth (even this is disputed), but that does not mean it can design anything complex. Consider, for example, the aquatic bladderwort, described in Plants and Environment, by R.F. Daubenmire (John Wiley & Sons, 1947):
The aquatic bladderworts are delicate herbs that bear bladder-like traps 5mm or less in diameter. These traps have trigger hairs attached to a valve-like door which normally keeps the trap tightly closed. The sides of the trap are compressed under tension, but when a small form of animal life touches one of the trigger hairs the valve opens, the bladder suddenly expands, and the animal is sucked into the trap. The door closes at once, and in about 20 minutes the trap is set ready for another victim.


The development of any major new feature presents similar problems, and according to Lehigh University biochemist Michael Behe, who describes several spectacular examples in detail in Darwin's Black Box (Free Press, 1996), the world of microbiology is especially loaded with such examples of "irreducible complexity."

It seems that until the trigger hair, the door, and the vacuum chamber were all in place, and the ability to digest insects, and to reset the trap to be able to catch more than one insect, had been developed, none of the individual components of this carnivorous trap would have been of any use. What is the selective advantage of an incomplete vacuum chamber? To the casual observer, it might seem that none of the components of this trap would have been of any use whatever until the trap was almost perfect, but of course a good Darwinist will imagine two or three far-fetched intermediate useful stages (and maybe even find one in Nature!), and consider the problem solved. I believe you would need to find thousands of intermediate stages before this example of irreducible complexity has been reduced to steps small enough to be bridged by single random mutations -- a lot of things have to happen behind the scenes and at the microscopic level before this trap could catch and digest insects. But I don't know how to prove this. (Lest anyone imagine a lot can be accomplished by single random mutations, note that if a billion animals each typed one random character per second throughout the Earth's 4.5 billion year history, there is virtually no chance any one of them would duplicate a given 20-character string.)

I am furthermore sure that even if you could imagine a long chain of useful intermediate stages, each would present such a negligible selective advantage that nothing as clever as this insect trap could ever be produced, but I can't prove that either. Finally, that natural selection seems even remotely plausible depends on the fact that while species are awaiting further improvements, their current complex structure is "locked in," and passed on perfectly through many generations. This phenomenon is observed, but inexplicable -- I don't see any reason why all living organisms do not constantly decay into simpler components -- as, in fact, they do as soon as they die.

When you look at the individual steps in the development of life, Darwin's explanation is difficult to disprove, because some selective advantage can be imagined in almost anything. Like every other scheme designed to violate the second law, it is only when you look at the net result that it becomes obvious it won't work.

A National Geographic article from November 2004 proclaims that the evidence is "overwhelming" that Darwin was right about evolution. Since there is no proof that natural selection has ever done anything more spectacular than cause bacteria to develop drug-resistant strains, where is the overwhelming evidence that justifies assigning to it an ability we do not attribute to any other natural force in the universe: the ability to create order out of disorder?

Three types of evidence are cited: first, the fact that species are so well suited to their environments is offered as evidence that they have "adapted" to them. Of course, if they were not well-adapted, they would be extinct, and that would be offered as even stronger evidence against design. Second, they point to changes due to artificial selection, where intelligent humans select features already present in the gene pool, as evidence of what can be accomplished when natural forces select among genetic accidents. But, as always, the main evidence offered is the "evolutionary tree" of similarities connecting all species, fossil and living. These similarities were of course noticed long before Darwin (many animals have four legs, one head, two eyes and a tail!); all modern science has done is to show that the similarities go much deeper than those noticed by ancient man.

Although these similarities may, to our modern minds, suggest natural causes, they do not really tell us anything about what those causes might be. In fact, the fossil record does not even support the idea that new organs and new systems of organs arose gradually: new orders, classes and phyla consistently appear suddenly. For example, Harvard paleontologist George Gaylord Simpson in "The History of Life" (in Volume I of Evolution after Darwin, University of Chicago Press, 1960) writes:
“It is a feature of the known fossil record that most taxa appear abruptly. They are not, as a rule, led up to by a sequence of almost imperceptibly changing forerunners such as Darwin believed should be usual in evolution...This phenomenon becomes more universal and more intense as the hierarchy of categories is ascended. Gaps among known species are sporadic and often small. Gaps among known orders, classes and phyla are systematic and almost always large. These peculiarities of the record pose one of the most important theoretical problems in the whole history of life: Is the sudden appearance of higher categories a phenomenon of evolution or of the record only, due to sampling bias and other inadequacies?”


Finally, I am well aware that logic and evidence are powerless against the popular perception, nurtured by prestigious journals such as National Geographic and Nature, that no serious scientists harbor any doubts about Darwinism, so I want to offer here a portion of a November 5, 1980 New York Times News Service report:
Biology's understanding of how evolution works, which has long postulated a gradual process of Darwinian natural selection acting on genetic mutations, is undergoing its broadest and deepest revolution in nearly 50 years. At the heart of the revolution is something that might seem a paradox. Recent discoveries have only strengthened Darwin's epochal conclusion that all forms of life evolved from a common ancestor. Genetic analysis, for example, has shown that every organism is governed by the same genetic code controlling the same biochemical processes. At the same time, however, many studies suggest that the origin of species was not the way Darwin suggested... Exactly how evolution happened is now a matter of great controversy among biologists. Although the debate has been under way for several years, it reached a crescendo last month, as some 150 scientists specializing in evolutionary studies met for four days in Chicago's Field Museum of Natural History to thrash out a variety of new hypotheses that are challenging older ideas... At issue during the Chicago meeting was macroevolution, a term that is itself a matter of debate but which generally refers to the evolution of major differences... Darwin knew he was on shaky ground in extending natural selection to account for differences between major groups of organisms. The fossil record of his day showed no gradual transitions between such groups, but he suggested that further fossil discoveries would fill the missing links. "The pattern that we were told to find for the last 120 years does not exist," declared Niles Eldridge, a paleontologist from the American Museum of Natural History in New York. Eldridge reminded the meeting of what many fossil hunters have recognized as they trace the history of a species through successive layers of ancient sediments. Species simply appear at a given point in geologic time, persist largely unchanged for a few million years and then disappear. There are very few examples -- some say none -- of one species shading gradually into another.


SCIENCE HAS BEEN so successful in explaining natural phenomena that the modern scientist is convinced that it can explain everything. Anything that doesn't fit into this materialistic model is simply ignored. When he discovers that all of the basic constants of physics, such as the speed of light, the charge and mass of the electron, Planck's constant, etc., had to have almost exactly the values that they do have in order for any conceivable form of life to survive in our universe, he proposes the "anthropic principle" and says that there must be many other universes with the same laws, but random values for the basic constants, and one was bound to get the values right. When you ask him how a mechanical process such as natural selection could cause human consciousness to arise out of inanimate matter, he says, "human consciousness -- what's that?" And he talks about human evolution as if he were an outside observer, and never seems to wonder how he got inside one of the animals he is studying. And when you ask how the four fundamental forces of Nature could rearrange the basic particles of Nature into libraries full of encyclopedias, science texts and novels, and computers, connected to laser printers, CRTs and keyboards and the Internet, he says, well, order can increase in an open system.

The development of life may have only violated one law of science, but that was the one Sir Arthur Eddington called the "supreme" law of Nature, and it has violated that in a most spectacular way. At least that is my opinion, but perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps it only seems extremely improbable, but really isn't, that, under the right conditions, the influx of stellar energy into a planet could cause atoms to rearrange themselves into nuclear power plants and spaceships and computers. But one would think that at least this would be considered an open question, and those who argue that it really is extremely improbable, and thus contrary to the basic principle underlying the second law, would be given a measure of respect, and taken seriously by their colleagues, but we aren't.


Granville Sewell is Professor of Mathematics at the University of Texas El Paso, and visiting professor at Texas A&M University. He has two new books released last summer, Computational Methods of Linear Algebra, and The Numerical Solution of Ordinary and Partial Differential Equations, both published by John Wiley & Sons, 2005. The latter includes an Appendix entitled, "Can ANYTHING Happen in an Open System?" which contains material referred to in this article, a long version of which can be found at the book home page.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Entropy proves that there had to be a beginning of some kind or continuous
creation. Either way it requires some sort of creator that is not subject to the law of entropy.
Even though energy may remain constant in a system such as our universe, its ability to do work is being reduced and therefore there will be an end
without more creation.

It doesn’t take pages to explain this but if you wish to confuse, the longer the
better
 

mighty_duck

New member
....the second law does not prevent scrap metal from reorganizing itself into a computer in one room, as long as two computers in the next room are rusting into scrap metal....

...according to Lehigh University biochemist Michael Behe...

...it might seem that none of the components of this trap would have been of any use whatever until the trap was almost perfect... But I don't know how to prove this...

... I am furthermore sure that ...but I can't prove that either.

...I don't see any reason why all living organisms do not constantly decay into simpler components...

...Granville Sewell is Professor of Mathematics
http://www.talkreason.org/articles/Sewell.cfm
http://www.csicop.org/intelligentdesignwatch/thermodynamics.html
 

bob b

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The 2nd Law and entropy are best expressed using the tools of mathematics.
 

Johnny

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Sewell's thermodynamic failure

By Mark Perakh

The young earth creationists (YECs) used to refer to the 2nd law of thermodynamics as an allegedly insurmountable obstacle to evolution. When their critics pointed out that the 2nd law, as used by creationists, is only valid for "closed" (or "isolated") systems and therefore is not an obstacle to evolution on our planet which is an open system receiving energy input from the sun, the YECs suggested various specious arguments designed to circumvent this limitation of the 2nd law. With time, as straightforward young earth creationism gradually retreated to such fringe outlets as Answers in Genesis, the Institute of Creation Research, and Hovind's entertainment shops (being replaced by intelligent design movement as the main anti-evolution force), reference to the 2nd law of thermodynamics has rare been heard as an anti-evolution argument.

However, this pseudo-scientific argument has not been completely abandoned by anti-evolution forces, both of YEC and ID varieties. From time to time it recrudesces in writing of this or that advocate of creationism.

One example of such a misuse of the 2nd law of thermodynamics is a recent article by professor of mathematics Granville Sewell titled "Evolution's Thermodynamic Failure."

When so great a "scientist" as Pat Buchanan endeavors to speak about evolution there is little to be surprised about when he displays ignorance -- Buchanan is a "pundit" of dubious integrity, with no credibility as far as any science is concerned, so we can't expect from him a reasonable discourse about anything scientific. Likewise, when some of the fellows of the Discovery Institute assault evolution theory, distortions and misrepresentations are the order of the day, because that is how they earn their keep. However, when a professor of mathematics at a quality university misuses thermodynamics, one only can shrug in astonishment.

Since I am not a mathematician, I would never try discussing the quality of Sewell's mathematical publications. Perhaps he is a very good mathematician. That not for me to judge. However, having taught all parts of physics, including thermodynamics, statistical physics, physical kinetics, and other related disciplines, for over half a century, both on the undergraduate and graduate levels, I feel qualified to judge Sewell's thermodynamic exercise. I find it depressingly fallacious.

Let me quote certain passages in Sewell's essay and briefly comment on them.

Sewell starts his essay with the following words:

In the current debate over "Intelligent Design," the strongest argument offered by opponents of design is this: we have scientific explanations for most everything else in Nature, what is special about evolution?

I don't know where Sewell found the quoted statement: he provides no references. I can't recall such statement offered as "the strongest argument… by opponents of design." To me it looks more like a straw-man erected by Sewell to enable him easily defeat this allegedly "strongest" anti-design argument.

This telling start of Sewell's thermodynamic exercise portends the overall level of his critique of evolution theory (ET). Indeed, as we read Sewell's tract, what we see described under the label of evolution theory looks more like a caricature of that theory. Of course Sewell is not a biologist and is not expected to discuss evolution theory on a professional level, but if this is the case, would it not be more sensible to leave the discussion of the strong and weak features of ET to experts (as they have been doing day in and day out in thousands of papers in scientific journals and in conferences and meetings)? I guess that if some biologist not versed in mathematics endeavored to critique Sewell's mathematical output, Professor Sewell would shrug off the dilettante's exercise with a disdainful smirk.

Since I am not a biologist, I'll limit my discussion of Sewell's essay to narrow thermodynamic topics.

The main argument against the ET used by Sewell seems to be based on thermodynamics, and specifically on its famous 2nd law.

Before delving into the essence of Sewell's main argument, let me provide a few more quotes from his essay.

Sewell writes,

The first formulations of the second law were all about heat: a quantity called thermal "entropy" was defined to measure the randomness, or disorder, associated with a temperature distribution, and it was shown that in an isolated system this entropy always increases, or at least never decreases, as the temperature becomes more and more randomly (more uniformly) distributed.

First of all, this statement is historically wrong. When Clausius introduced the concept of entropy, it was not connected in any way with "randomness" -- such a connection was discovered much later, and not in thermodynamics per se but rather in statistical physics. Furthermore, the expressions "temperature distribution" and "temperature becomes more and more randomly (more uniformly) distributed" are rather imprecise. Temperature T is a thermodynamic parameter which has meaning only for macroscopic assemblies of particles. T has no meaning for infinitesimally small volumes. We can meaningfully discuss temperature gradients, because the concept of a gradient does not require consideration of infinitesimally small volumes. However, the concept of a "distribution" involves the concept of a "distribution function," which necessarily incorporates values defined for infinitesimal volumes where the concept of T is meaningless.

Sewell further writes,

The fact that order is disappearing in the next room does not make it any easier for computers to appear in our room -- unless this order is disappearing into our room, and then only if it is a type of order that makes the appearance of computers not extremely improbable, for example, computers. Importing thermal order will make the temperature distribution less random, and importing carbon order will make the carbon distribution less random, but neither makes the formation of computers more probable.

Note here the expressions like "order is disappearing in the next room," "Importing thermal order," and "will make the temperature distribution less random."

While expressions like "entropy flows into the system," are common in thermodynamics, they are just metaphors. Entropy is not a substance which can literally "flow" from or into a system. Entropy is a measure of disorder and the actual mechanism of its decrease in one place and accompanying increase in another place is statistical. It is realized via random motion of particles chaotically exchanging their energy and momenta through collisions. Likewise, expressions like "order is imported," have no literal meaning, but Sewell uses such expressions as if they reflect the actual influx ("import") or outflow ("export") of some non-existing substance called "order." This metaphoric language sheds no additional light on the discussed phenomena, more so because his expressions like "temperature distribution becomes less random" are simply confusing as the temperature is essentially a macroscopic quantity having no meaning for infinitesimally small volumes and therefore a distribution function for temperature cannot be defined.

Defenders of Sewell may argue that I am nitpicking here on some insignificant semantic details. Perhaps this is so and these semantic details have no bearing on the essence of Sewell's argument. They have a bearing, though, on the overall credibility of Sewell as the interpreter of subtle nuances of thermodynamics he evidently pretends to be.

Here is another quote:

Natural forces, such as corrosion, erosion, fire and explosions, do not create order, they destroy it.

Without a further "nitpicking" regarding the term "forces" being applied to corrosion and erosion (which are, strictly speaking, not forces but processes), Sewell's thesis is contrary to well established facts which testify that there are many spontaneous natural processes that create order. Has Professor Sewell never heard about self organization which occurs spontaneously and has been observed many times in various systems?

Has Sewell never heard about, say, Benard cells, a Belousov-Zhabotinsky reaction, spontaneous ordering in various colloidal systems, etc., etc., etc.? (See, for example, Niall Shanks, God, the Devil, and Darwin).

Continue reading...
 

bob b

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Sewell's thermodynamic failure

By Mark Perakh

The young earth creationists (YECs) used to refer to the 2nd law of thermodynamics as an allegedly insurmountable obstacle to evolution. When their critics pointed out that the 2nd law, as used by creationists, is only valid for "closed" (or "isolated") systems and therefore is not an obstacle to evolution on our planet which is an open system receiving energy input from the sun, the YECs suggested various specious arguments designed to circumvent this limitation of the 2nd law. With time, as straightforward young earth creationism gradually retreated to such fringe outlets as Answers in Genesis, the Institute of Creation Research, and Hovind's entertainment shops (being replaced by intelligent design movement as the main anti-evolution force), reference to the 2nd law of thermodynamics has rare been heard as an anti-evolution argument.

However, this pseudo-scientific argument has not been completely abandoned by anti-evolution forces, both of YEC and ID varieties. From time to time it recrudesces in writing of this or that advocate of creationism.

One example of such a misuse of the 2nd law of thermodynamics is a recent article by professor of mathematics Granville Sewell titled "Evolution's Thermodynamic Failure."

When so great a "scientist" as Pat Buchanan endeavors to speak about evolution there is little to be surprised about when he displays ignorance -- Buchanan is a "pundit" of dubious integrity, with no credibility as far as any science is concerned, so we can't expect from him a reasonable discourse about anything scientific. Likewise, when some of the fellows of the Discovery Institute assault evolution theory, distortions and misrepresentations are the order of the day, because that is how they earn their keep. However, when a professor of mathematics at a quality university misuses thermodynamics, one only can shrug in astonishment.

Since I am not a mathematician, I would never try discussing the quality of Sewell's mathematical publications. Perhaps he is a very good mathematician. That not for me to judge. However, having taught all parts of physics, including thermodynamics, statistical physics, physical kinetics, and other related disciplines, for over half a century, both on the undergraduate and graduate levels, I feel qualified to judge Sewell's thermodynamic exercise. I find it depressingly fallacious.

Let me quote certain passages in Sewell's essay and briefly comment on them.

Sewell starts his essay with the following words:

In the current debate over "Intelligent Design," the strongest argument offered by opponents of design is this: we have scientific explanations for most everything else in Nature, what is special about evolution?

I don't know where Sewell found the quoted statement: he provides no references. I can't recall such statement offered as "the strongest argument… by opponents of design." To me it looks more like a straw-man erected by Sewell to enable him easily defeat this allegedly "strongest" anti-design argument.

This telling start of Sewell's thermodynamic exercise portends the overall level of his critique of evolution theory (ET). Indeed, as we read Sewell's tract, what we see described under the label of evolution theory looks more like a caricature of that theory. Of course Sewell is not a biologist and is not expected to discuss evolution theory on a professional level, but if this is the case, would it not be more sensible to leave the discussion of the strong and weak features of ET to experts (as they have been doing day in and day out in thousands of papers in scientific journals and in conferences and meetings)? I guess that if some biologist not versed in mathematics endeavored to critique Sewell's mathematical output, Professor Sewell would shrug off the dilettante's exercise with a disdainful smirk.

Since I am not a biologist, I'll limit my discussion of Sewell's essay to narrow thermodynamic topics.

The main argument against the ET used by Sewell seems to be based on thermodynamics, and specifically on its famous 2nd law.

Before delving into the essence of Sewell's main argument, let me provide a few more quotes from his essay.

Sewell writes,

The first formulations of the second law were all about heat: a quantity called thermal "entropy" was defined to measure the randomness, or disorder, associated with a temperature distribution, and it was shown that in an isolated system this entropy always increases, or at least never decreases, as the temperature becomes more and more randomly (more uniformly) distributed.

First of all, this statement is historically wrong. When Clausius introduced the concept of entropy, it was not connected in any way with "randomness" -- such a connection was discovered much later, and not in thermodynamics per se but rather in statistical physics. Furthermore, the expressions "temperature distribution" and "temperature becomes more and more randomly (more uniformly) distributed" are rather imprecise. Temperature T is a thermodynamic parameter which has meaning only for macroscopic assemblies of particles. T has no meaning for infinitesimally small volumes. We can meaningfully discuss temperature gradients, because the concept of a gradient does not require consideration of infinitesimally small volumes. However, the concept of a "distribution" involves the concept of a "distribution function," which necessarily incorporates values defined for infinitesimal volumes where the concept of T is meaningless.

Sewell further writes,

The fact that order is disappearing in the next room does not make it any easier for computers to appear in our room -- unless this order is disappearing into our room, and then only if it is a type of order that makes the appearance of computers not extremely improbable, for example, computers. Importing thermal order will make the temperature distribution less random, and importing carbon order will make the carbon distribution less random, but neither makes the formation of computers more probable.

Note here the expressions like "order is disappearing in the next room," "Importing thermal order," and "will make the temperature distribution less random."

While expressions like "entropy flows into the system," are common in thermodynamics, they are just metaphors. Entropy is not a substance which can literally "flow" from or into a system. Entropy is a measure of disorder and the actual mechanism of its decrease in one place and accompanying increase in another place is statistical. It is realized via random motion of particles chaotically exchanging their energy and momenta through collisions. Likewise, expressions like "order is imported," have no literal meaning, but Sewell uses such expressions as if they reflect the actual influx ("import") or outflow ("export") of some non-existing substance called "order." This metaphoric language sheds no additional light on the discussed phenomena, more so because his expressions like "temperature distribution becomes less random" are simply confusing as the temperature is essentially a macroscopic quantity having no meaning for infinitesimally small volumes and therefore a distribution function for temperature cannot be defined.

Defenders of Sewell may argue that I am nitpicking here on some insignificant semantic details. Perhaps this is so and these semantic details have no bearing on the essence of Sewell's argument. They have a bearing, though, on the overall credibility of Sewell as the interpreter of subtle nuances of thermodynamics he evidently pretends to be.

Here is another quote:

Natural forces, such as corrosion, erosion, fire and explosions, do not create order, they destroy it.

Without a further "nitpicking" regarding the term "forces" being applied to corrosion and erosion (which are, strictly speaking, not forces but processes), Sewell's thesis is contrary to well established facts which testify that there are many spontaneous natural processes that create order. Has Professor Sewell never heard about self organization which occurs spontaneously and has been observed many times in various systems?

Has Sewell never heard about, say, Benard cells, a Belousov-Zhabotinsky reaction, spontaneous ordering in various colloidal systems, etc., etc., etc.? (See, for example, Niall Shanks, God, the Devil, and Darwin).

Continue reading...

It would be expected that critics would never get around to the essence of the argument and the reason I posted the article: namely that the so-called requirement for the 2nd law to be operative is bogus, because open systems also obey the 2nd law provided that the entropy of any external inputs are taken into account.
 

mighty_duck

New member
The 2nd Law and entropy are best expressed using the tools of mathematics.

Knowing when and how to apply a particular tool of mathematics on physical problems is best done by physicists, or in the case of biological problems, by biologists.

Mathematicians are great at developing these tools though.
 

Johnny

New member
bob b said:
It would be expected that critics would never get around to the essence of the argument and the reason I posted the article: namely that the so-called requirement for the 2nd law to be operative is bogus, because open systems also obey the 2nd law provided that the entropy of any external inputs are taken into account.
Anyone who understands thermodynamics at an elementary level has at one point come to the realization that for any local decrease in entropy the overall entropy of the universe must increase. To quote a popular ID proponent, there is no such thing as a free lunch. The reason the closed system requirement is still quoted and pointed out is because creationists tend to ignore the fact that the Earth is open and as such local decreases in entropy are possible. Thus, when someone says "The second law only applies to closed systems", they are pointing out the fact that the only time local entropy must increase is in a closed system.
 

bob b

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Anyone who understands thermodynamics at an elementary level has at one point come to the realization that for any local decrease in entropy the overall entropy of the universe must increase. To quote a popular ID proponent, there is no such thing as a free lunch. The reason the closed system requirement is still quoted and pointed out is because creationists tend to ignore the fact that the Earth is open and as such local decreases in entropy are possible. Thus, when someone says "The second law only applies to closed systems", they are pointing out the fact that the only time local entropy must increase is in a closed system.

You apparently are unaware that there is no such thing as a closed system.

Therefore, one must either calculate or estimate what the inputs from outside the system are so that they can either be ignored as not significant, or else their effect can be taken into account.

The idea that the Sun can be used to justify local decreases in entropy is absurd, since it is hard to imagine any input that would be less ordered than that.

The confusion arises because there are biological machines called plants which like any entropy reducing device is able to use the Sun's energy to reduce entropy. If you would read the thread "Cell Trends Too" you would see that the process that plants use to accomplish this is amazingly efficient.

Of course evolutionists define away how such "machines" could have evolved by claiming that "evolution does not include abiogenesis". So how the DNA/RNA/protein interrelated system could have arisen and how sexual reproduction could have arisen are declared "out of bounds".

In other words the most difficult phases of life for a "naturalistic" process are conveniently ignored.
 

Johnny

New member
bob b said:
You apparently are unaware that there is no such thing as a closed system.
One could argue the universe is a closed system. Nonetheless, there isn't such thing as a frictionless system, or a perfect engine, or a lot of theoretical constructs we use to formulate physical laws. They are idealized scenarios that don't exist in reality. That doesn't make the laws any less true.

bob b said:
Therefore, one must either calculate or estimate what the inputs from outside the system are so that they can either be ignored as not significant, or else their effect can be taken into account.
Ok.

bob b said:
The idea that the Sun can be used to justify local decreases in entropy is absurd, since it is hard to imagine any input that would be less ordered than that.

The confusion arises because there are biological machines called plants which like any entropy reducing device is able to use the Sun's energy to reduce entropy. If you would read the thread "Cell Trends Too" you would see that the process that plants use to accomplish this is amazingly efficient.
I don't need to read "Cell Trends Too", I spent much of my college years studying the cell. No one is confused.

bob b said:
Of course evolutionists define away how such "machines" could have evolved by claiming that "evolution does not include abiogenesis". So how the DNA/RNA/protein interrelated system could have arisen and how sexual reproduction could have arisen are declared "out of bounds".
No, no one is saying that these subjects can't or shouldn't be studied. They're saying that the study of these subjects is different than the study of evolution. That's all. Just like you can study the laws of physics without knowing precisely how they came about, so you can study the evolution of life without knowing the precise mechanism by which it came about.

bob b said:
In other words the most difficult phases of life for a "naturalistic" process are conveniently ignored.
Ignored? What in the world are you talking about? I can direct you to dozens of labs studying this very subject! I'm sure they wouldn't think your accusation was very fair.
 

bob b

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I don't need to read "Cell Trends Too", I spent much of my college years studying the cell. No one is confused.

You seem to be confused about how the molecular machiness within the cell first arose.

No, no one is saying that these subjects can't or shouldn't be studied. They're saying that the study of these subjects is different than the study of evolution. That's all. Just like you can study the laws of physics without knowing precisely how they came about, so you can study the evolution of life without knowing the precise mechanism by which it came about.

Wrong. We can experiment with the laws of physics because they exist in the here and now.

We can't "study" the evolution of life, because it never evolved except in the fantasies of people who don't know they are beating a dead horse.

Ignored? What in the world are you talking about? I can direct you to dozens of labs studying this very subject! I'm sure they wouldn't think your accusation was very fair.

I am sure you are right, neverless they are living in a fool's paradise.

God created life.
 

Johnny

New member
bob b said:
You seem to be confused about how the molecular machiness within the cell first arose.
Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm confused. Even if I were wrong, that doesn't mean I'm confused.
bob b said:
Wrong. We can experiment with the laws of physics because they exist in the here and now.

We can't "study" the evolution of life, because it never evolved except in the fantasies of people who don't know they are beating a dead horse.
See, you're side-stepping my point by quibbling over whether or not evolution can actually be studied. I hate when you do that. It gives a bad impression. My point is that you can study something without knowing precisely where it came from. If someone were to believe that the evolution of life could be studied, then it could be studied without knowing precisely where life came from. (There, you can't side-step that phrasing).

bob b said:
I am sure you are right, neverless they are living in a fool's paradise.
I hope you will stop saying that these aspects of life are "conveniently ignored", then.
 

Flipper

New member
"Eppur si muove".

I note that Sewell's interpretation, as it stands, also doesn't appear to allow for highly ordered natural systems like hurricanes, that is if you accept his contention that the SLOT applies to the whole process of evolution, which he badly mischaracterizes. I hope that he would agree that ordered systems can arise from disorder, so I suspect his bone of contention is with the idea of ordered systems replicating themselves with inconsistencies that can sometimes be preserved to the benefit of the replicating process.

I am sure he is a mathematician of the first water. He is not a very cogent evolutionary biologist or biochemist, as far as this essay goes. But perhaps he will take over the role of creationist mathematics from Dembski - that would be a nice change.

Perakh wrote a nice refutation. Natural systems can (and do) self-organize all the time. They don't even have to be living ones.

The OP essay lacks clarity and has too many mischaracterizations to be very interesting.
 

Palladius

New member
Proponent Granville Sewell has stated that the evolution of complex forms of life represents a decrease of entropy, thereby violating the second law of thermodynamics and supporting intelligent design.[86][87] Critics assert that this is a misapplication of thermodynamic principles.[88] The second law applies to closed systems only. If this argument were true, living things could not be born and grow, as this also would be a decrease in entropy. However, like evolution, the growth of living things need not violate the second law of thermodynamics, because living things are not closed systems-- they have external energy sources (e.g. food, oxygen, sunlight) whose production requires an offsetting net increase in entropy. (source: Wikipedia "Intelligent Design")
 

Palladius

New member
Bob,

For the sake of argument, let us assume that compelling evidence exists that highly suggests "intelligent design." How is this proof that the Genesis creation story is historically accurate?
 

Yorzhik

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Bob,

For the sake of argument, let us assume that compelling evidence exists that highly suggests "intelligent design." How is this proof that the Genesis creation story is historically accurate?
It doesn't. But at least you can jettison the idea of evolution. That would be a step in the right direction.
 

chair

Well-known member
Energy and Entropy are connected to each other. It is obvious from the thermodynamics equations, and from real life experience.

Plants use light energy to reduce the disorder in their system.

Non-living systems can do that as well. Think of a sorting machine, which creates order by separating two types of materials. A robot, if you like. Or a distillation apparatus that separates two materials. Energy is used to create order.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
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If you have an open system, what is it open to?

If you can’t explain that, you have to assume a closed one

With a closed system entropy tells us that there was a beginning and there will be
an end

Logic tells us that there had to be a Beginner
 
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