The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace

[patman]

Q.Why does the angel assume Daniel's knowledge of such written Scripture of Truth?
A. -because the writings of 1 Enoch said he saw all the tablets written in heaven, which were written there so that the angels would read them and know all events which were to happen to the sons of Adam, on earth, until the end of this present creation and the beginning of the New Creation [Which Enoch told of]. -which is why Gabriel had authority to "bind" the prince of Persia, upon the Written Word He read in heaven -which Michael came to aid him in the "binding" of the prince of Persia, as "two sons of God agreeing, as touching the revealed will of God"

"Confounding of the languages does not mean that no one knew how to speak or write or read the first language! and where does it say that the original language of Adam -through to Noah- was done away with? Chapter and verse please!

......

Also, Patman, You aren't being logical about languages and about records from before the flood, which Moses had access to when he included the genealogies of the patriarchs and of Cain's genealogy, also, in Genesis. do you not see your own contradiction of yourself?
Moses wasn't there, but he wrote from records recorded before the flood -all the way to after, at Babel. Where did Moses get the pre-flood records?

Enoch was written in a relatively young language, not a 5000 year old language.

The point of confusing the languages was so no one could understand the other and to divide the world into nations, allowing them to speak the original language is self defeating.

I already showed you in Gen 10:1-4ish where the languages were established 300 years before Abram, you can count for yourself the years from these men to Abram in chapter 11... Abram WASN'T present during the language change. Notice how he already had a nation to migrate to... had he been alive during the language change, Canaan would not yet exist.

God told Moses the Genealogy from before the flood, or it was passed down by word of mouth through time. Names do not change where language do.

The bottom line is still that the original language is lost, the language Enoch is written in is new, and your sources thus far that are extra biblical have been found lacking. You like them so much you try to impose them in the Word where it isn't, that is what people do when they are bias about something.

Job cried "Oh that God had written a book!" According to this statement, God hadn't written anything yet... yet you say Job knew all about Enoch, a inspired book of God, as you say. It just isn't true, even Job doesn't acknowledge it as he wishes something had been written.

 

[Lighthouse]

Dear Lighthouse,
Thank you for your reply.

For clarification of my questions, please critique posts #196 and #259.

Just to make things easier, could you please use the link feature when you ask me to go to certain posts? Especially when they are so far back in the thread.

#196 The law did not provide eternal salvation at all but rather offered temporal purification for the Jews (Hebrews 9:13-14)
Because the utter sinfulness of man makes him absolutely incapable of having any part in earning his own salvation (Romans 3:21-23, 10-18; Psalm 14:1-3; Ecclesiastes 7:20; Isaiah 64:6)
If merit allows a man to glory in earning his salvation and this kind of glorying is wrong, then why is it wrong for us but all right for those in other dispensations?
If merit was wrong for Abraham (Romans 4:2), the great Old Testament saint who was called the friend of God (James 2:23), then why is it all right for other Old Testament saints?
Because works-salvation makes God a debtor to man, something He can never be. (Romans 4:3-5; 11:35)
Second, even under the law, men came to God ultimately by faith. Even
though their faith might be expressed in works (as ours should be), it
was still faith that got God's attention.
With the exception of Judas, the apostles were certainly saved during the lifetime of Christ, though I would not speculate as to the exact time.

http://www.learnthebible.org/reject_works_salvation.htm

Works are worthless without faith. And works themselves never saved anyone. However, as salvation is by grace, through faith, works were once required as acts of faith. They worked with faith. Without faith they would have been nothing. And, as John said, faith without works is dead. In that dispensation, faith without works garnered you nothing.

#259 To say that salvation is not the same in all ages is to say that man’s nature and needs have changed from age to age. This is impossible.
Some dispensationalists have said that Old Testament saints were not regenerated or indwelled by the Holy Spirit. But we must say, did not man’s fallen nature require such works of grace?
Whatever you need, the Old Testament saints needed as well. If you need the new birth, so did they. If you need the indwelling of the Spirit, so did they. The oneness of man’s fallen nature guarantees the oneness of salvation in all ages.

http://davidsonpress.com/salvation/salvation1.htm

God's character never changes, but His methods do. The reason works are no longer required is because of Christ's finished work on the cross. It is my firm belief that God had planned to eventually bring about the dispensation of grace, when Israel turned to Christ. But since they didn't, He called Paul to bring it to the Gentiles, and now there is no difference between Jew or Gentile in the Body of Christ.

 

[Lighthouse]

John: Faith without works is dead.

Paul: We are saved by grace, through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, and not by works, lest any man should boast.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

Enoch was written in a relatively young language, not a 5000 year old language.

The point of confusing the languages was so no one could understand the other and to divide the world into nations, allowing them to speak the original language is self defeating.

I already showed you in Gen 10:1-4ish where the languages were established 300 years before Abram, you can count for yourself the years from these men to Abram in chapter 11... Abram WASN'T present during the language change. Notice how he already had a nation to migrate to... had he been alive during the language change, Canaan would not yet exist.

God told Moses the Genealogy from before the flood, or it was passed down by word of mouth through time. Names do not change where language do.

The bottom line is still that the original language is lost, the language Enoch is written in is new, and your sources thus far that are extra biblical have been found lacking. You like them so much you try to impose them in the Word where it isn't, that is what people do when they are bias about something.

Job cried "Oh that God had written a book!" According to this statement, God hadn't written anything yet... yet you say Job knew all about Enoch, a inspired book of God, as you say. It just isn't true, even Job doesn't acknowledge it as he wishes something had been written.

Your entire defense against the indictment Enoch has written against MAD doctrine thousands of years before MAD doctrine was invented, is that “Enoch couldn’t have written it“? -You are totally illogical!
~~~but;
The world was already divided into nations. 70 of them, before Babel.
Genesis 10, 11 and Isaiah 14 show Nimrod & co were in league with the demons and fallen angels to “make a name” for themselves, to scatter abroad upon the face of the earth, and to make a tower and "ascend into heaven" -an anti-name to the name YHWH was to make for Himself, and an anti-city to Zion “Babel”, And YHWH was to "make a name for Himself" [to indwell as His New Man house, replacing Adam], by taking a man from the Gentiles through whom the Seed would come as Kinsman, to inhabit the earth forever, and ascend into heaven by.
~~~
Noah wasn’t at the tower of Babel, helping to build it in rebellion against God!
Abraham was born 58 years before Noah died and it is proven in Scripture and in Jasher, with dates given which show the truth of his birth.
~~~
Babel was in 2007/2008 BC
Shem outlived Abraham.
~~~
From the dates given in the OT and in the book of Jasher, there is agreement found on the dates, there -but Ussher missed them. If you go read the book and see for yourself, you can follow the dates in the OT and work them out with the dates in Jasher and arrive at complete harmony -but Ussher missed it.
~~
And as for names changing, or being different -you are wrong, and frankly I don’t want to do your research for you to prove it, as it is so obviously an unlearned statement by you. -you should go look at the biblical names for yourself and see the many different names some people are called by.
~~
http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/real.htm

Thus the Bible, and the book of Jasher, are in complete agreement on Biblical chronology from Flood, down through the birth of Terah, Abraham's father, to Abraham, and down to the birth of Abraham's promised son, Isaac!

The book of Jasher sheds marvelous light on the chronology of the years between the Flood and the children of Israel entering Egypt. It does not alter the frame of Ussher's chronology. Creation would still be in 4004 B.C. The Flood would still be in 2348 B.C. The only changes would be the birth dates of Abraham and his children, by putting them all 60 years earlier. This means the sojourn in Egypt itself also began 60 years earlier than Ussher's date.
This happy coincidence provides us an additional 60 years of the children of Israel in Egypt to reproduce like rabbits so their progeny, by the time of the Exodus, includes 600,000 males, besides women and children. Ussher's chronology puts the sojourn of Jacob and his family in Egypt as beginning in 1706. He puts the Exodus in 1491. The difference is only 215 years total, for Jacob's family to grow from 70 people to something like 2-3 million!
However, the reconstruction of the chronology from the Flood to the Sojourn in Egypt gives us another 60 years -- or a total of 275 years in Egypt, for Israel to reproduce and multiply -- another two generations to accomplish the exponential growth rate required!
Also, by backing up the birth of Abraham by 60 years, suddenly many pieces of the historical puzzle begin to click, and fit together. Now we see Abraham was actually taught by Noah himself the ways of the Lord. Isaac also was taught by Noah and Shem. Jacob also spent years in the house of Shem and Eber.
The new chronology also helps us to pinpoint in history the Tower of Babel cataclysm, the birth of Nimrod, and Nimrod's rise to power, his relationship to Terah, Abraham's father, and his dealings with Abraham himself, and his children, and his murder at the hands of Esau, Isaac's son. It's all quite a fascinating story. Read it -- for yourself!

~~~~ in response to the rest of your post;

God told Moses no such thing -he read the ancient books, which Egypt was in as much possession of as ancient Ur had also been.
Where do you get this “passed by word of mouth doctrine“? Where is that from? -Not from Scripture! Jesus Christ as the Word of God in heaven wrote the Scripture of Truth, for the angels to read, which the angels showed to Enoch and showed Daniel what would befall his people until the end, from.
Jesus Christ as the Similitude of YHWH wrote the Decalogue on tablets of stone -twice, for Moses to give to His Namesake, Israel, by adoption.
~~~
You are making up that line about the original language lost. It was lost indeed to those who had the “the neurological disturbance at Babel that scrambled the output stage of our common, programmed language.”[http://www.homestead.com/edenics/word_intro1.html]; but you are totally not in the position to claim that Noah and Shem’s language was scrambled to them, and you certainly have no way to prove that the information in the Book of Jubilees was wrong and that Abraham did not learn all 70 of the languages which were scrambled from the original one, at Babel!
~~~

You are making a very false claim about what Job said, and I rebuke you for the false statement, which truth was that he desired an indictment were written against Himself -and he would bind it upon his shoulders; there was no indictment and he did not know why he was being destroyed -but he learned later.
NKJV - Job 31:35 -Oh, that I had one to hear me! Here is my mark. Oh, that the Almighty would answer me, That my Prosecutor had written a book! Surely I would take it upon my shoulder, [and] bind it [as] a crown to me.
Job makes the statement before that, desiring that his own words be written in a book, or graven with iron pen and lead in rock forever;
Job 19:23¶Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
and those words were this:
Job 19:25For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth:
And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; [though] my reins be consumed within me.
But ye should say, Why persecute we him, seeing the root of the matter is found in me?
Be ye afraid of the sword: for wrath [bringeth] the punishments of the sword, that ye may know [there is] a judgment”
-And Job learned about His Kinsman/Redeemer from the Book of Enoch -which book many passages in Job confirms.
~~~

 

[thelaqachisnext]

And you might get a little bit educated on language from this, below, which claims all languages are scrambled from Hebrew, and gives their proofs for English being so..
"the neurological disturbance at Babel ... scrambled the output stage of our common, programmed language.”


http://www.homestead.com/edenics/word_intro1.html
The Word: An Introduction

THE WORD is out! You can hold in your hands one of the most significant books of our times. It is the most complete etymological dictionary of the English language, but it is far more than that.
THE WORD shall prove that:
English is ultimately from Biblical Hebrew.
All languages ultimately link up, and only through variations of the original, universal language (Hebrew).
Every word ever thought or spoken is merely a disguised form of Hebrew. Hebrew is on the tip of your tongue.
The primordial human language system (Hebrew) is a natural science like physics or chemistry. Only the "DNA" of Hebrew letters reveals the FL/LF element in FoLio and LeaF (synonyms) and the MN/NM in opposing NuMber words like MiNus and MaNy.
Even animal names have hidden, profound meanings: GIRAFFE (a presumed Italian and Arabic corruption) means "neck"; SKUNK (to English via the Algonquian Indian) means "stink" in the language ascribed to our ancestor Adam.

roots of words are fascinating, as the root of YHWH is simply: "LIFE -that or who- LIVES/ BREATH -that or who- BREATHES.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

Q.Why does the angel assume Daniel's knowledge of such written Scripture of Truth?
A. -because the writings of 1 Enoch said he saw all the tablets written in heaven, which were written there so that the angels would read them and know all events which were to happen to the sons of Adam, on earth, until the end of this present creation and the beginning of the New Creation [Which Enoch told of]. -which is why Gabriel had authority to "bind" the prince of Persia, upon the Written Word He read in heaven -which Michael came to aid him in the "binding" of the prince of Persia, as "two sons of God agreeing, as touching the revealed will of God"

"Confounding of the languages does not mean that no one knew how to speak or write or read the first language! and where does it say that the original language of Adam -through to Noah- was done away with? Chapter and verse please!

Chapter and verse were not given -and you have never replied to the angel's source which he read, which is called the "Scripture of Truth", because you have no answer, not having been taught;
Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

Isa 29:11 ¶ And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, [even] a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent [men] shall be hid.

 

[godrulz]

John: Faith without works is dead.

Paul: We are saved by grace, through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, and not by works, lest any man should boast.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1254913&postcount=3

Here is an alternate understanding I wrote that is plausible, if not probable (click link).

James, not John, said faith without works is dead. He is talking about the type of saving faith we have that is evidenced by works (root vs fruit).

Paul emphasizes that faith, not legalistic works, saves us. He is not against works as fruit, not the root of salvation (Eph. 2:10).

 

[lightninboy]

Dear Lighthouse,
Thank you for your reply.

Just to make things easier, could you please use the link feature when you ask me to go to certain posts? Especially when they are so far back in the thread.

I am sorry if you thought you were supposed to go back to the original posts. I summarized some old posts for patman earlier. I gave you the summary and the web page it came from so you could read it in the original context if you wanted to.

Works are worthless without faith. And works themselves never saved anyone. However, as salvation is by grace, through faith, works were once required as acts of faith. They worked with faith. Without faith they would have been nothing. And, as John said, faith without works is dead. In that dispensation, faith without works garnered you nothing.

Wasn’t it James who said that?
You run away from James like godrulz runs away from Hebrews.
I already posted Acts 2 Dispensationalism interpretations of Hebrews and James that do not threaten our eternal life.
Before you take on a theology to protect you from James, first be sure James is actually the monster you think it is.

#196 The law did not provide eternal salvation at all but rather offered temporal purification for the Jews (Hebrews 9:13-14)
True or false?

Because the utter sinfulness of man makes him absolutely incapable of having any part in earning his own salvation (Romans 3:21-23, 10-18; Psalm 14:1-3; Ecclesiastes 7:20; Isaiah 64:6)
True or false?

If merit allows a man to glory in earning his salvation and this kind of glorying is wrong, then why is it wrong for us but all right for those in other dispensations?

If merit was wrong for Abraham (Romans 4:2), the great Old Testament saint who was called the friend of God (James 2:23), then why is it all right for other Old Testament saints?

Works-salvation makes God a debtor to man, something He can never be. (Romans 4:3-5; 11:35)
True or false?

Even under the law, men came to God ultimately by faith. Even though their faith might be expressed in works (as ours should be), it was still faith that got God's attention.
True or false?

With the exception of Judas, the apostles were certainly saved during the lifetime of Christ, though I would not speculate as to the exact time.
True or false?

Here is the original web page that post #196 came from. It is from an Acts 2 Dispensationalism Baptist minister.
http://www.learnthebible.org/reject_works_salvation.htm

And before you give me that “That was then; this is now” line, remember that I refuted the “Mystery Dispensation of Grace” argument.

God's character never changes, but His methods do.

God’s character never changes, and neither does sinful man’s, as post #259 said.

The reason works are no longer required is because of Christ's finished work on the cross.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe works weren’t really required for everlasting life before the cross?

It is my firm belief that God had planned to eventually bring about the dispensation of grace, when Israel turned to Christ. But since they didn't, He called Paul to bring it to the Gentiles, and now there is no difference between Jew or Gentile in the Body of Christ.

The Kingdom was genuinely offered to Israel up to A.D. 70, I recently posted, but God knew what would happen. Remember that the Temple was predicted to be destroyed. There was no “Plan A” and “Plan B,” I recently posted.

#259 To say that salvation is not the same in all ages is to say that man’s nature and needs have changed from age to age. This is impossible.
Some dispensationalists have said that Old Testament saints were not regenerated or indwelled by the Holy Spirit. But we must say, did not man’s fallen nature require such works of grace?
Whatever you need, the Old Testament saints needed as well. If you need the new birth, so did they. If you need the indwelling of the Spirit, so did they. The oneness of man’s fallen nature guarantees the oneness of salvation in all ages.

Nicodemus
Could not understand how You could
Truly free us
He struggled with the image
Of a grown man born again
We might have been good friends

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

What was Jesus talking about in John 3 if not that Old Testament people had to have everlasting life the same way we do?

Here is the web page that post #259 came from. I think I pretty much agree with Foundational Principles, The Salvation Arguments, and Answering the Difficult Questions, but you and I would both disagree with How to Know That You Are Saved.
http://davidsonpress.com/salvation/salvation1.htm

Were the first Christians Jews? You call those Jewish people on probation Christians?

 

[drbrumley]

Dispensational, pretribulationists believe that the New Testament teaches that the current Church Age is unique when contrasted with previous and future dispensations.

isn't it unique?

We believe that the church was always a part of God' s eternal plan or decree, but that it was a mystery, not revealed until New Testament times.

Is this you? Who is the we?

It is common to hear from anti-dispensationalist, such as Dr. Kenneth Gentry, saying that dispensationalists believe that Israel was God' s plan A, which failed, so He belatedly came up with plan B- the church.

Patently false that Isreal was plan A and the Church was plan B

We believe that God' s single plan has always included the church, but He did not reveal the church age part of the plan in the Old Testament.

I disagree.

After having explained to the Ephesian Christians how God has taken elect Jews and Gentiles and placed " the two into one new man" (Eph. 2:15), he proceeds in chapter three to describe how this truth was a mystery, never before revealed in the Old Testament.
Paul calls this new revelation " the stewardship of God' s grace which was given to me for you" in verse two of chapter three. The word that the NASB translates " stewardship" is rendered " dispensation" by the KJV. This is one of the places where " dispensation" is used in the Bible (see also 1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 1:10; Col. 1:25) and is where the modern use of dispensationalism is derived. How was the dispensation of God' s grace given to Paul? Ephesians 3:3 tells us that it was " by revelation." I believe that Jesus in His Upper Room Discourse (John 13- 17) gave a brief introduction of church age truth to His disciples. Yet Jesus said, " I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come" (John 16:12-13). One of the many more things that Jesus reveled, in this case to Paul, was " the mystery, as I wrote before in brief." When did Paul previously and briefly speak of the mystery? Most likely in Ephesians 1:9-10!
In concert with Paul' s mystery, James said in Acts 15:14-16 that God is " taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name" (verse 14), then He will return and restore Israel (verse 16). Coupled with Paul' s teaching in Ephesians 2 and 3, we know that those elect Gentiles of this church age are combined in a co-equal way with the Jewish remnant of the same period. When God' s purpose for the church is complete He will end this temporary age with the rapture before the tribulation. Then He will work through Israel to bring her into the bond of the covenant and then all redeemed peoples of the ages will reign in their own order with Messiah in the millennial kingdom.
Maranatha!

Is this the post you just said refuted Dispensationalism?

 

[godrulz]

Huh? I do not run away from Hebrews. I do not dismiss it with Mid-Acts dispensationalism. I do see that it has stern warnings about the possibility of falling away or apostasy, but that does not mean I run away from the book like LH supposedly does with James?!

 

[lightninboy]

Yay! Some new blood around here on the MAD side! I was wanting someone MAD besides Lighthouse to ask “Were the first Christians Jews? You call those Jewish people on probation Christians?” to!

Dear drbrumley,
Thank you for your reply.
How can you be the 2006 Great Plains Champion when you live in Florida?

isn't it unique?

Yes, The Wonderful Church Age is unique.

Is this you? Who is the we?

I speak for Acts 2 Dispensationalism. However, Acts 2 Dispensationalists can have different opinions and make contradicting statements.
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/TheUniquenessofTheChurch.html

Patently false that Isreal was plan A and the Church was plan B.

Then we seem to agree on that.

I disagree.

When you say you disagree, do you mean that the church was mentioned in the Old Testament, or do you mean that God’s single plan didn’t always include the church? But if that’s what you mean, that would mean that the church was plan B, wouldn’t it?

Is this the post you just said refuted Dispensationalism?

No, I believe the post that refuted The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace was post #950.

 

[lightninboy]

thelaqachisnext,

That idea that all languages came from Hebrew seems kind of cool.:up:

 

[drbrumley]

Yay! Some new blood around here on the MAD side! I was wanting someone MAD besides Lighthouse to ask “Were the first Christians Jews? You call those Jewish people on probation Christians?” to!

Were the first Christians Jews? Nice spin on the two questions, meaning answering either in the affirmative puts me at odds with myself because of conflicting answers. In other words, NO!
You call those Jewish people on probation Christians? NO!

Dear drbrumley,
Thank you for your reply.
How can you be the 2006 Great Plains Champion when you live in Florida?

We have fantasy football League here on TOL and I am the commissioner of the league.

Yes, the Wonderful Church Age is unique.

:up:

I speak for Acts 2 Dispensationalism.

I see Acts 2. Which in reality sums about every christian on the earth in some way. Unless your MAD :chuckle: Or Acts 28

However, Acts 2 Dispensationalists can have different opinions and make contradicting statements.
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/TheUniquenessofTheChurch.html

As can every classification of people.

Then we seem to agree on that.

:up:

When you say you disagree, do you mean that the church was mentioned in the Old Testament,

No

or do you mean that God’s single plan didn’t always include the church? But if that’s what you mean, that would mean that the church was plan B, wouldn’t it?

Not at all. After Christ's death and resurrection defeating sin and Satan, it went back to the original way before sin entered the world.

No, I believe the post that refuted The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace was post #950.

I'll check it out. Thanks!

 

[patman]

Open Rebuke

Open Rebuke

Your entire defense against the indictment Enoch has written against MAD doctrine thousands of years before MAD doctrine was invented, is that “Enoch couldn’t have written it“? -You are totally illogical!

...


You are making up that line about the original language lost. It was lost indeed to those who had the “the neurological disturbance at Babel that scrambled the output stage of our common, programmed language.”[http://www.homestead.com/edenics/word_intro1.html]; but you are totally not in the position to claim that Noah and Shem’s language was scrambled to them, and you certainly have no way to prove that the information in the Book of Jubilees was wrong and that Abraham did not learn all 70 of the languages which were scrambled from the original one, at Babel!

.....

You are making a very false claim about what Job said, and I rebuke you for the false statement, which truth was that he desired an indictment were written against Himself -and he would bind it upon his shoulders; there was no indictment and he did not know why he was being destroyed -but he learned later.

It must be nice to add your own favorite book on to scripture. Next time I try to do this, I might choose The Cay, or maybe a TV show, like Stargate... that would make the Bible way cooler...

Then maybe we could use lots of things to cross reference a really cool theology that disproves everything.

Yeah, enough with the sarcasum... You rebuked me over what you do not know, I rebuke YOU for making up your own Bible!

So now that everyone saw that.... lets try again.

Gen 11:9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.

God confused everyone's languages! Sorry, you can't go on making stuff up just so you can make your own Bible. This will dismiss everything else you said about that.

You should also take back your rebuke.....

Job 31:35
Oh, that I had one to hear me!Here is my mark. Oh, that the Almighty would answer me, That my Prosecutor had written a book!

Wow, looks like Job really didn't have a book from God after all.

Abram did not know all 70 languages. Your book is not accurate about that detail, He wasn't alive for the EVENT at Babel, where the languages were confused (Which you misunderstood me about this in the last post, he may have seen Babel, but he didn't witness the confusing of the languages)

I already showed scripture where the languages and nations were scattered with Noah's grandchildren, not his great great grandchildren.

Please, stop the insanity!!!!!!

 

[thelaqachisnext]

thelaqachisnext,

That idea that all languages came from Hebrew seems kind of cool.:up:

I just bought the book for myself, as digging into word etymologies is something I like to do.-It'll be here next week.

From someone who wrote the root meaning of YHWH from the Hebrew, I learned that YHWH is simply LIFE [that or Who] LIVES, BREATH [that or who] BREATHES, and is not "pronounced", rather it is the sound of the intake and exhaling of breath.
When you inhale the first breath after coming out of your mother's womb, and exhale, you have "called His name"; He gives the sum total of your life to you and he owns you, and your breath is His gift. In Him we truly do live and move and have our being. -that's the kind of word study I'm looking forward to.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

patman
you got Job wrong -Job did not say God had not written a book! -that is false of you to say so, and the Scripture says no such thing in the original; rather Job wants a book written of indictment against him which he can "bind on his shoulder".
.
He had no indictment. the LORD was silent -until the end of Job's trial.

The research has been done and yes -Abraham was alive at the time of Babel -and Scripture does give the links which show that, by deduction, in places, if you will go do your own research....

And the word "all the" earth is not in the Scripture passage.
Noah wasn't at Babel.
Abram wasn't at Babel.
Shem wasn't at Babel.

Gen 11:9 has seven words to begin, which are simply
1 shem [name[
2 qara' [called[
3 Babel
4 YHWH
5 balal [1) to mix, mingle, confuse],
6 saphah [language]
7 'erets [earth].
One language, of earth, gets 'mixed" "mingled" -Do you know how to find out what "mixed", or "mingled" means?

"He scrambled the one language up at Babel" is a good way to put it! -Noah wasn't there, nor Shem, nor Abram.

Abram was the tenth generation from Shem: in my hubby's family, we presented his family with the fifth living generation on his mom's side -and the oldest of them was only 107 when they died. Five generations of his side were born within less than 100 years, so when the Word says Melche [who was Shem] met Abram and gave him the blessing of Firstborn, he was getting that blessing from the tenth generation back.

You just say things, but you do not do research to prove your beliefs.

 

[patman]

You just say things, but you do not do research to prove your beliefs.

You have no idea about me.

I gave you scripture showing Abram's life 300 years after God divided the nations by languages in Gen 10 an 11... you just continue to look to some other book and at the same time rebuke me for misrepresenting scripture. I Hate that it is true, but you are a hypocrite.

You really haven't put things together about Enoch. Check this out:

1 Enoch
"Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spoke, and sent Uriel to the son of Lamech, and said to him: Go to Noah and tell him in my name "Hide thyself!" and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. And now instruct him that he may escape and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world."

Sooooooo, what does it mean? It means Enoch heard God tell Noah about the flood. Wow, that is interesting.. considering Enoch was taken decades before Noah was even Born, little less before he was of age to Build the ark. That puts on another 500 years more.

That leaves no time for him to write a book, and certainly does not fit into the time table offered by the Bible!!!

 

[thelaqachisnext]

You have no idea about me.

I gave you scripture showing Abram's life 300 years after God divided the nations by languages in Gen 10 an 11... you just continue to look to some other book and at the same time rebuke me for misrepresenting scripture. I Hate that it is true, but you are a hypocrite.

You really haven't put things together about Enoch. Check this out:

1 Enoch
"Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spoke, and sent Uriel to the son of Lamech, and said to him: Go to Noah and tell him in my name "Hide thyself!" and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. And now instruct him that he may escape and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world."

Sooooooo, what does it mean? It means Enoch heard God tell Noah about the flood. Wow, that is interesting.. considering Enoch was taken decades before Noah was even Born, little less before he was of age to Build the ark. That puts on another 500 years more.

That leaves no time for him to write a book, and certainly does not fit into the time table offered by the Bible!!!

You need to read all the book of Enoch before you take something out and claim for it what it is not!
Lamech's son is Noah, and you are reading a fragment of Noah, which is included in the book.
-BTW, Noah brought the book on the ARK.
And as Enoch was in the Garden of God before the flood, Lamech came to call out for him to hear him, in his distress at Noah's birth, cause Noah was so unuasual that Lamech thought his wife had messed around with the Watchers and that Noah was not his own son.
and Enoch -who was not dead- came to Lamech and told him why the unusual appearance of Noah at his birth.

Enoch prophesied the flood as the first consumation of sin on earth and the great tribulation's end as the second consumation of sin on the earth [Enoch 91-92].

 

[patman]

You need to read all the book of Enoch before you take something out and claim for it what it is not!
Lamech's son is Noah, and you are reading a fragment of Noah, which is included in the book.
-BTW, Noah brought the book on the ARK.
And as Enoch was in the Garden of God before the flood, Lamech came to call out for him to hear him, in his distress at Noah's birth, cause Noah was so unuasual that Lamech thought his wife had messed around with the Watchers and that Noah was not his own son.
and Enoch -who was not dead- came to Lamech and told him why the unusual appearance of Noah at his birth.

Enoch prophesied the flood as the first consumation of sin on earth and the great tribulation's end as the second consumation of sin on the earth [Enoch 91-92].

Noah was not alive when Enoch went to heaven... sorry. The mere mention of him is proof the author of the book is not divine because they didn't think about this when they wrote it.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

Noah was not alive when Enoch went to heaven... sorry. The mere mention of him is proof the author of the book is not divine because they didn't think about this when they wrote it.

Do you know that you are trying to defend MAD doctrine by attacking the book which refuted MAD doctrine, but which book was already written and accepted as Scripture -by those who matter- thousands of years before MAD doctrine was invented; and which book was quoted by the LORD Jesus and all the NT writers; and which many early Church fathers called inspired, and Scripture?
You really have egg on your face with your trying to make out as if the book couldn't possibly be credible -even though the LORD Jesus Christ gives credibility to it and all the NT writers give credibility to it and many early Church Fathers give credibility to it.
That said;
From a fragment of Noah's book -Methusaleh comes to seek his father, Enoch, who is dwelling in the Mountain of God [Eden], at this time [I think it was, but I have to re-read to check exactly], about Noah's unusual appearance at birth, because he was fearful that his wife had messed around with the fallen watchers and that Noah was not his son;

;

[Chapter 106] Fragment of Noah

1 And after some days my son Methuselah took a wife for his son Lamech, and she became
2 pregnant by him and bore a son. And his body was white as snow and red as the blooming of a rose, and the hair of his head and his long locks were white as wool, and his eyes beautiful. And when he opened his eyes, he lighted up the whole house like the sun, and the whole house
3 was very bright. And thereupon he arose in the hands of the midwife, opened his mouth, and conversed with the Lord of righteousness.
4 And his father Lamech was afraid of him and
5 fled, and came to his father Methuselah. And he said unto him: ' I have begotten a strange son, diverse from and unlike man, and resembling the sons of the God of heaven; and his nature is different and he is not like us, and his eyes are as the rays of the sun, and his
6 countenance is glorious. And it seems to me that he is not sprung from me but from the angels, and I fear that in his days a wonder may be
7 wrought on the earth. And now, my father, I am here to petition thee and implore thee that thou mayest go to Enoch, our father, and learn from him the truth, for his dwelling-place is
8 amongst the angels.' And when Methuselah heard the words of his son, he came to me to the ends of the earth; for he had heard that 1 was there, and he cried aloud, and I heard his voice and I came to him. And 1 said unto him: ' Behold, here am I, my son, wherefore hast
9 thou come to me ? ' And he answered and said: ' Because of a great cause of anxiety have I come to thee, and because of a disturbing vision
10 have I approached. And now, my father, hear me: unto Lamech my son there hath been born a son, the like of whom there is none, and his nature is not like man's nature, and the colour of his body is whiter than snow and redder than the bloom of a rose, and the hair of his head is whiter than white wool, and his eyes are like the rays of the sun, and he opened his eyes and
11 thereupon lighted up the whole house. And he arose in the hands of the midwife, and opened
12 his mouth and blessed the Lord of heaven. And his father Lamech became afraid and fled to me, and did not believe that he was sprung from him, but that he was in the likeness of the angels of heaven; and behold I have come to thee that thou mayest make known to me the truth.'
And I, Enoch, answered and said unto him: 'The Lord will do a new thing on the earth, and this I have already seen in a vision, and make known to thee that in the generation of my father Jared some of the angels of heaven transgressed the word of the Lord.
And behold they commit sin and transgress the law, and have united themselves with women and commit sin with them, and have married some of them, and have begot children by them. And they shall produce on the earth giants not according to the spirit, but according to the flesh, and there shall be a great punishment on the earth, and the earth shall be cleansed from all impurity.
Yea, there shall come a great destruction over the whole earth, and there shall be a deluge and
16 a great destruction for one year. And this son who has been born unto you shall be left on the earth, and his three children shall be saved with him: when all mankind that are on the earth
18 shall die [he and his sons shall be saved]. And now make known to thy son Lamech that he who has been born is in truth his son, and call his name Noah; for he shall be left to you, and he and his sons shall be saved from the destruction, which shall come upon the earth on account of all the sin and all the unrighteousness, which shall be consummated on the earth in his days.

And after that there shall be still more unrighteousness than that which was first consummated on the earth; for I know the mysteries of the holy ones; for He, the Lord, has showed me and informed me, and I have read (them) in the heavenly tablets.

[Chapter 107]

1 And I saw written on them that generation upon generation shall transgress, till a generation of righteousness arises, and transgression is destroyed and sin passes away from the earth, and all 2 manner of good comes upon it. And now, my son, go and make known to thy son Lamech that this 3 son, which has been born, is in truth his son, and that (this) is no lie.' And when Methuselah had heard the words of his father Enoch-for he had shown to him everything in secret-he returned and showed (them) to him and called the name of that son Noah; for he will comfort the earth after all the destruction.