The verses dispys misinterpret--

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Ben Masada

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On the contrary, they voted for Jesus to be killed. The Romans tried and tried to replace Jesus with somebody else and repeatedly told the crowd Jesus was not guilty -

You are only telling me that you have never read Josephus about Pilate in his book "Wars of the Jews". Josephus says that Pilate would not sleep the day he did not nailed a Jew to the cross. This tells how much he hated the Jews whom the Romans lost several legions to. This only says how hard were the Jews to be governed by them among all the rest of the conquered world.
 
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northwye

New member
"And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel." Jeremiah 18: 4-6

This remaking of Old Covenant Israel is mentioned in II Kings 21: 13 and in Isaiah 29: 16. God said he was to turn Jerusalem upside down in II Kings 29: 16 and in Isaiah 29: 16, "Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay..."

It turned out that God used a remnant to begin his remaking of Old Covenant Israel.

A remnant of Old Covenant Israel returned to Jerusalem under Nehemiah, Ezra,Zerubbabel and others to rebuild Old Covenant Israel after the Babylonian Captivity. And Paul in Romns 11: 1-5 points out that a remnant - of Old Covenant Israel - was elected by grace and the multitude who rejected Christ were cut off (Romans 11:17-20).

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." Romans 11: 1-5

God did not cast away all of Old Covenant Israel, as Paul says. Then in verses 2 to 4 Paul briefly discusses a remnant that existed at the tme of Elias, or Elijah, who in I Kings 19: 14 asks the Lord if he, Elijah, is the only one left who is faithful to God. God answers in I Kings 19: 18, that he has seven thousand who have not bowed their knees to Baal, meaning they are God's remnant.

When the multitude goes into false doctrines and false practices, God raises up a remnant to begin again his people Israel.

Yet when the remnant of Romans 11: 1-5 was developing, it took some time for Paul's revelation from Christ (Acts 26: 15-18) to become the Gospel of Christ which was to fully become what Paul in Galatians 6: 16 calls the Israel of God, to differentiate it from Israel of the flesh (Romans 9: 6-8. I Corinthians 10: 18), and to realize for that remnant what Peter talks about in I Peter 2: 5, 9, to be as "...lively stones...built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood..."

In I Peter 2: 9 Peter quotes Exodus 19: 5-6 and applies it to Christians. Who are “ye” in I Peter 2: 5 and in I Peter 2: 9? “Ye” cannot be Old Covenant Israel. Those of Old Covenant Israel in Romans 11: 17-20 who did not accept Jesus Christ and were not born again were cut off.

The indications that the Jerusalem Christians under James were trying to add Jesus Christ to Israel of the flesh are seen in Acts 15 and Acts 21: 20-21. Acts 15: 5 says "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

James acted as a compromiser in Acts 15, between the Pharisees who believed on Christ but demanded that all Christians be circumcised and Paul's crew who opposed circumcision and following the ceremonies of the law of Moses.. In Acts 15: 19-23 James decided not to impose circumcision on Paul's Gentile Christians, but he said in Acts 15: 21-22 that all Christians should abstain from pollutions of idols, things strangled and blood, and implied that the Gentile Christians should read Moses as he is "...read in the synagogues very sabbath day."

Then in Acts 21, when Paul and his crew were in Jerusalem to meet with James and the elders, probably including Peter and John, James said to Paul, "Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21. And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs." Acts 21: 20-21

The doctrines of Paul taught that the Old Covenant physical ceremonies were just shadows of the spiritual which was taught by Christ, who is the substance. This is what Peter is talking about in I Peter 2: 5, 9, that "ye," the born again Christians, are now built up as a spiritual house, and these Christians, are now "a peculiar treasure unto me (God) above all people, and a kingdom of priests and a holy nation."

Exodus 19: 5-6 says "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.”

In quoting Exodus 19: 5-6 Peter in I Peter 2: 9 says "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:”

James, the leader of the Jerusalem Christians, tried in to make the Christian Gospel fit in with the Old Covenant .He tried to add Christ to the Old Covenant without doing away with the Old. "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9

But Paul and his followers were preaching the Gospel of Christ to the Greeks, without including Old Covenant ceremonies and doctrines. The preaching of the Gospel of Christ to the Greeks was to set that Gospel free of Judaism and the Old Covenant

This is what Paul means in Galatians 4: 24-26, that the Jerusalem, meaning Israel of the Old Covenant, is in bondage with her children. Under the Old Covenant physical doctrines and practices Old Covenant Israel was in bondage. "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.".
 

Ben Masada

New member
But Paul and his followers were preaching the Gospel of Christ to the Greeks, without including Old Covenant ceremonies and doctrines. The preaching of the Gospel of Christ to the Greeks was to set that Gospel free of Judaism and the Old Covenant

This is what Paul means in Galatians 4: 24-26, that the Jerusalem, meaning Israel of the Old Covenant, is in bondage with her children. Under the Old Covenant physical doctrines and practices Old Covenant Israel was in bondage. "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.".

Paul was preaching his gospel to the Jews throughout the Diaspora; not to the Gentiles. (Acts 21:21) BTW, he never left the Jews in peace since his first station in Damascus and until his last one in Rome. (Acts 9:1,2,17) Probably, he did not have what it takes to raise a church of Gentiles from scratch; so he would stick with the Jews, especially the Sect of the Nazarenes. Then, he would act like a Cuckoo bird laying his eggs in the nests of other small birds.
 

Danoh

New member
northwye; of your last two posts above, I thought the second one was the more fascinating of the two; though you were still way off in both posts.

Dave McPherson has not only been proven wrong in his findings, but wilfully so.

As for your second post, which I actually enjoyed, you are off on one crucial aspect; which is why you end up fusing together "things that differ."

Of course, this is my take - other of my fellow MADs (Acts 9 - not Acts 2 Dispensationalism) may differ.

Both groups were justified by faith.

Those Jews saved and sealed before Israel's fall in Early Acts (Israel's believing remnant), were justified by faith, but so were those Jews concluded under sin with the Gentiles - both of this latter group who later trusted Paul's gospel, were also justified by faith.

The imporant distinction was that those under James, Cephas, and John - the first group above - not only remained under the Law not for righteousness, but because of the righteousness of Christ; but remained under the Law because that is Israel's identity as God's peculiar people above all the nations of the earth...

Deuteronomy 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Those Jews who were cut off from that for their unbelief when its' offer had still been on the table in Early Acts, were now "as an heathen," or as Gentiles.

Note Israel's identity again - among the Gentiles; what Israel did with it, and its' consequence...

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

They were now UNcircumcision of the heart.

They had broken from Covenant with God by their failure to keep the Law in their failure to believe by Moses that Jesus was their Prophesied Christ and were now as UNcircumcision, or Gentiles.

John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Then, when God began offering salvation to the Gentiles directly, rather than through Israel; which was now in unbelief as a nation, but for their believing remnant; unbelieving Israel was availed of this Gentile salvation - as Gentiles.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Note - they can still get saved, though...

11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

How? As Gentiles..

11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Thus, Paul's rejoicing in his awe at how God always knows in advance how He will bless Jacob one way or another...

11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

And that is besides what God still has planned for the Israel of God - that believing remnant within Israel who were not only of Jacob physically, but of Isaac in their heart spiritually, and were thus born of the Spirit, as Isaac had been.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Who were these as many of His own who did receive Him?

Believing remnant Israelites - or Israelites in deed - Israelites of the following kind within this amazing people...

John 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

They were the foolish nation within their nation who Paul is referring to in the following...they were the ones who not only found Him; but confessed Him to their fellow Israelites; though viewed as fools for doing so...

Romans 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Read John chapter 9 for a really great example of both types of Israelites - believing and unbelieving.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
How do you want us to understand this post of yours, that Jesus himself should be shunned! According to his gospel which was the Tanach he used to teach to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

You're Jewish and trying to have a meeting of the minds with you, would be an "Exercise in futility."

No thanks, I'll respectfully, decline.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Sounds like you got a bad case of Replacement Theology.

No.

My theology is that the elect of Israel became the scattered church among the nations, and when filled up with the full number of gentiles who believe to become one with them, then Christ will return and gather them, and God will then pour out His wrath on the unbelievers of both Jew and Gentile.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

LA
 

northwye

New member
Fearless Dave MacPhearson in his article with the link shown on post 96 said that dispensationalist celebrities plagiarized the published work of others, mostly other dispensationalists. I have forgotten the exact details of the issue of how much the Scottish girl Margaret MacDonald's "vision" or utterance published in 1840 in Norton's Memoirs contributed to John Darby's theory of the pre-trib rapture.

The pre-trib rapture can easily be shown to be false doctrine by New Testament scripture - in I Corinthians 15: 52 and in John 6: 40-54 and John 11: 24. Trying to argue against the absolute truth of scripture only shows the spiritual state of the dispensationalist-Zionists. And using the sidestep tactic of personally attacking people verbally who uphold scripture that does not agree with dispensationalism is going against Christian morality.

Romans 2: 8 says "..unto them that are contentious,
but do not obey the truth...indignation and wrath." I Corinthians 11:
16, says "If any man be contentious, we have no such custom." And look
at II Corinthians 12: 20. Here Paul says he fears that when he comes
back to his people at Corinth that he will find them in debates,
envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings,
tumults."

I Timothy 6: 3-4, "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome
words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine
which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but
doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy,
strife, railings, evil surmisings."

What Paul is saying is that those
who get off into doctrines that were not taught by Christ and the
Apostles tend to get into logomachia, or strifes of words."

"Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers," Romans 1: 29 Quarreling is an accurate English word for eris. Some kinds of
statements invite a quarrel more than other kinds of statements. And
quarreling is an indication of a reprobate mind in Romans 1:28-29

Acts 15: 1-2: "And certain men which came down from Judaea
taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the
manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas
had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined
that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to
Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question."

Luke did not use eris or logomachia in Acts 15: 2, which would have
carried a meaning closer to contentiousness than suzetesis.
Nevertheless, Paul and Barnabas did make strong disputation with the
Pharisees who taught that Christians must observe the ceremonial law
of Moses to be saved.

While an argument against the absolute truth of scripture is
the dialectic, and is of the reprobate mind, as Paul teaches in Romans
1; 29, and of the condition of the natural man (I Corinthians 2:
14),questioning false doctrine and defending the absolute truth of
scripture is not an act of the reprobate mind. It is an act of
obedience to Christ and his truth.

And - the pre-trib rapture doctrine is not necessary as a support for the doctrine of the supremacy of the Old Covenant, the continuation of the importance of the chosen people by the physical bloodline contrary to Galatians 3, or the view of Romans 11: 25 that an end will come to Gentile salvation before the end of the church age and then God will remove the blindness of the Jews.

Even if MacPhearson's case for the influence of Margaret MacDonald on John Darby's rapture theory was not as strong as he thought, to imply that this discredits MacPharsson's case against dispensationalist celebrities for plagiarizing books is like what politicians do all the time. MacPhearson has not been discredited as far as scholarship or Christian morality is concerned. Dispensationalists appear not to understand this.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Fearless Dave MacPhearson in his article with the link shown on post 96 said that dispensationalist celebrities plagiarized the published work of others, mostly other dispensationalists. I have forgotten the exact details of the issue of how much the Scottish girl Margaret MacDonald's "vision" or utterance published in 1840 in Norton's Memoirs contributed to John Darby's theory of the pre-trib rapture.

The pre-trib rapture can easily be shown to be false doctrine by New Testament scripture - in I Corinthians 15: 52 and in John 6: 40-54 and John 11: 24. Trying to argue against the absolute truth of scripture only shows the spiritual state of the dispensationalist-Zionists. And using the sidestep tactic of personally attacking people verbally who uphold scripture that does not agree with dispensationalism is going against Christian morality.

Romans 2: 8 says "..unto them that are contentious,
but do not obey the truth...indignation and wrath." I Corinthians 11:
16, says "If any man be contentious, we have no such custom." And look
at II Corinthians 12: 20. Here Paul says he fears that when he comes
back to his people at Corinth that he will find them in debates,
envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings,
tumults."

I Timothy 6: 3-4, "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome
words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine
which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but
doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy,
strife, railings, evil surmisings."

What Paul is saying is that those
who get off into doctrines that were not taught by Christ and the
Apostles tend to get into logomachia, or strifes of words."

"Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers," Romans 1: 29 Quarreling is an accurate English word for eris. Some kinds of
statements invite a quarrel more than other kinds of statements. And
quarreling is an indication of a reprobate mind in Romans 1:28-29

Acts 15: 1-2: "And certain men which came down from Judaea
taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the
manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas
had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined
that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to
Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question."

Luke did not use eris or logomachia in Acts 15: 2, which would have
carried a meaning closer to contentiousness than suzetesis.
Nevertheless, Paul and Barnabas did make strong disputation with the
Pharisees who taught that Christians must observe the ceremonial law
of Moses to be saved.

While an argument against the absolute truth of scripture is
the dialectic, and is of the reprobate mind, as Paul teaches in Romans
1; 29, and of the condition of the natural man (I Corinthians 2:
14),questioning false doctrine and defending the absolute truth of
scripture is not an act of the reprobate mind. It is an act of
obedience to Christ and his truth.

And - the pre-trib rapture doctrine is not necessary as a support for the doctrine of the supremacy of the Old Covenant, the continuation of the importance of the chosen people by the physical bloodline contrary to Galatians 3, or the view of Romans 11: 25 that an end will come to Gentile salvation before the end of the church age and then God will remove the blindness of the Jews.

Even if MacPhearson's case for the influence of Margaret MacDonald on John Darby's rapture theory was not as strong as he thought, to imply that this discredits MacPharsson's case against dispensationalist celebrities for plagiarizing books is like what politicians do all the time. MacPhearson has not been discredited as far as scholarship or Christian morality is concerned. Dispensationalists appear not to understand this.

Do you EVER consider that sometimes you might just be wrong about certain things? Or, do you consider that everything you say is 100% correct?
 

Danoh

New member
Dave MacPhearson not only also plagiarized what he bases his assertions on, but got them wrong; even after that was pointed out to him.

And the PreTrib (actually PreProphecy) Rapture was NOT based on MacDonald (who actually held to Rapture more along the line of what some refer to as PreWrath [as did Psuedo Ephraim many, many centuries earlier]).

Darby recovered PreTrib just after he saw the Believer's completeness in Christ - BEFORE he saw the Dispensational Distinction.

The former then resulting in the latter.

Before that, he had held Reformed notions of that completeness; which is actually a legalistic, performance based acceptance Galatianism unaware it is; due to its' Replacement confusion.

See; various of us MADs not only know the various histories of these things; but actually understand them.

It depends on where the MAD is in his her understanding of things when he or she looks at such histories.

The problem of those without the camp is that their very reasoning is fraught with just that - their reasonings on a thing; together with that just as flawed reasoning about a thing as found in those books who's authors they parrot.
 

Ben Masada

New member
The "Purity" of the true Gospel needs to be defended and kept isolated from people's false doctrines and opinions.

Which gospel, the gospel of Paul or the gospel of Jesus? If you ask me, the pure gospel was the one of Jesus aka the Tanach since he was a Jew and knew no other gospel but the Tanach.
 

northwye

New member
In history God has several times raised up a remnant, which is faithful to him, and has used that remnant to begin a new group of his people. The multitude, which has gone into false doctrines and false practices, and away from God, is cut off from God. That multitude, though, has tried to get back its position with God.

At the great flood of Noah, God cut off the large multitude of people and began again with a small remnant, Noah, Noah's wife, his three sons and their wives. "And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:" Genesis 8: 18

"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." I Peter 3: 20

Then in I Kings 19 during the time of the apostasy of Ahab and Jezebel, God told Elijah in I Kings 19: 18, "Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him." God had preserved a remnant even in the time of the apostasy of Ahab and Jezebel.

In Romans 11: 4, as part of his statement on a remnant of Old Covenant Israel accepting Christ, and becoming members of the elect by grace, Paul quotes I Kings 19: 18. Paul says that in the remnant, God did not cast away all his people. But as Romans 11: 17-20 say, God did cut off all of Old Covenant Israel which were in unbelief, who rejected Christ.

Again in the Babylonian captivity of seventy years as judgment for falling away into false doctrines and practices the multitude of Old Covenant Israel was left in false doctrines and in captivity while a remnant was sent back to Jerusalem under Zerubbabel, Jeshua and Ezra to began Old Covenant Israel anew.

When Christ appeared in human flesh and went to the Cross, God fulfilled the prophecies of II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16, and Jeremiah 18: 1-6 to turn Jerusalem (Israel) upside down and to make Israel again "another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it." And in Acts 10 God used Peter to bring the Gospel to Cornelius, a non-Jew, and his people, beginning the fulfillment of the prophecy of Hosea 2: 23 to make a people who were not before the people of God, the people of God. In other words, non-Jews were to be brought in to Israel reborn in Jesus Christ.

This cutting off of the multitude who were following the false doctrines as leaven of the Pharisees (Matthew 16: 6, Luke 12: 1), and beginning a new Israel in the remnant of Romans 11: 5 was a major transformation of Israel from the Old Covenant which operated in the physical to a New Covenant which operated in the spiritual. That which was physical under the Old Covenant - physical bloodline from Abraham, physical circumcision, a physical temple building, physical animal sacrifice, etc - was all done away with as shadows (Hebrews 10: 1, Colossians 2: 17). That which is in the spiritual - in Christ Jesus - became the substance.

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Colossians 2: 16-17

Paul uses soma (translated as body) to mean that which is substance, which is spiritual. The shadows of the Old Covenant were merely pointers toward the coming of Christ who brought spiritual life to those who took on his mind. "I am the way, the truth, and the life..." John 14: 6

"My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you." Galatians 4: 19 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:" Philippians 2: 5

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." II Corinthians 5: 17

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Romans 12: 2

When Christ is formed in you, you begin to be changed so that your consciousness is raised up to a higher level in Christ. You know things you did not know before. "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:" Ephesians 2: 5-6

But false doctrines keep Christ from being formed in you, so that you remain in the spiritual condition of the natural man of I Corinthians 2; 14, who does not discern the things of the Spirit.

The remnant of Israel began that transformation in Christ brought about by the Holy Spirit in the First Century. The multitude of Old Covenant Israel rejected Christ and did not want their religion turned upside down (Acts 17: 6). They were cut off. They continued in Christ rejection as Talmudic Judaism.

New Testament prophecy indicates that the same kind of reduction of the multitude to a remnant will happen again in New Covenant times, as the remnant holds on to the testimony of Jesus Christ while the multitude is off into false doctrines.

The Reformation can be seen as a restoration of the Gospel of Christ by a group of people who were a remnant in the beginning, though the restoration was not complete and the Reformers held on to some of the doctrines and practices of the Roman Catholic Church.

"And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived." Revelation 18: 23

The light of Christ and his doctrines is the light of the candle which has gone out in Babylon, which is metaphoric for the falling away from sound doctrine of II Thessalonians 2: 3-7. The true voice of Christ the bridegroom (Matthew 9: 15, Matthew 25: 1, 5-6) is not heard in Babylon, which represents the multitude in false doctrines after the remnant has left it, just as Talmuic Judaism condinued as a false religion after the remnant of Romans 11: 5 accepted Christ and was not longer part of the Christ-rejecting multitude.

Revelation 18: 23, in metaphoric language, says Christ at some point in time will no longer be in the churches.

Babylon in the New Testament - Revelation 17 and 18 - is a re-enactment of Babylon in Jeremiah 50 and 51, and some of the statements in Jeremiah 50-51, are quite similar to what is said in Revelation 17 and 18 and can be applied to our time.

"And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird......4. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." Revelation 18: 2, 4-5

"Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Come out of the multitude which is in false doctrines where Christ no longer lives.

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you," II Corinthians 6: 17

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12: 14-17

Revelation 12: 14-17 is the story of the metaphoric woman and her seed the remnant going out into the metaphoric wilderness, outside the churches, and away from the multitude. The flood that the dragon casts out of his mouth represents his inspiring the many false prophets of Matthew 24: 11 - and II Peter 2: 1-3 - to deceive the multitude into following false doctrines. It is a flood of lies. The remnant is seen in Revelation 12: 17 as having the testimony of Jesus Christ - out in the wilderness, "without the camp," as Hebrews 13: 13 says.

"I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD.
13. The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid." Zephaniah 3: 12-13

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads..........And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." Revelation 14: 1, 3-5

This remnant is raised up spiritually in Christ; he is in them. This is what standing with Christ high up on Mount Sion means. There is something new that is given this remnant. They sing a new song, though they also have the testimony of the Gospel Christ gave in the First Century.

"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. " This throws a lot of people who want to see it literally. Yet it is an important revelation in metaphoric language. The woman of Revelation 17: 1-6 represents false religion, and she is not limited to any one false religion, but all of them, and in the New Covenant time she is Christianity after the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-7.

The remnant is outside of the church system.

The remnant of israel does not do iniquity,nor speak lies, and they are not deceptive; they have no guile, an old English word meaning deceptive.

So, there is a conflict between the multitude, who are in false doctrines, and the remnant which holds on to the doctrines once delivered to the saints, though they sing a new song.

"For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; The daughter of Babylon is like a threshingfloor, it is time to thresh her: yet a little while, and the time of her harvest shall come." Jeremiah 51: 33

In the threshing floor, those deceived by the huge number of false prophets of Matthew 24: 11, II Peter 2: 1-3 and Revelation 9: 14-9, are separated from those not deceived, who come to the knowledge of the truth. Those who are deceived by the false prophets and their man made doctrines, are under the indignation of God of Isaiah 26: 20. This is a time after the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-7
begins in the modern timeline. And that beginning is not future as the dispensationalists say.

The threshing floor is where the wheat is separated from the chaff, that is, where those who have come to the knowledge of the truth (I Timothy 2: 4, II Timothy 3: 7, III John 1: 4) are separated from those who have not come to that knowledge and resist the truth, though they may think they have been born again by procedures which do not change them from the state of the natural man to spiritual new creatures.. What is the cause of people not coming to the knowledge of the truth? It can be that the Lord has not given them ears to hear the truth, and that they have been deceived by the false prophets, the priests and preachers, into believing false doctrines and the re-defined and reduced Gospel taught by these guys.

In the threshing floor, those deceived by the huge number of false prophets of Matthew 24: 11, II Peter 2: 1-3 and Revelation 9: 14-9, are separated from those not deceived, who come to the knowledge of the truth. Those who are deceived by the false prophets and their man made doctrines, are under the indignation of God of Isaiah 26: 20. This is a time after the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 begins in the modern timeline.

Those who have come to the knowledge of the truth (I Timothy 2: 4, II Timothy 3: 7, III John 1: 4) are separated from those who have not come to that knowledge and resist the truth, though they may think they have been born again by procedures which do not change them from the state of the natural man to spiritual new creatures.

II Timothy 3: 7-8 says in the last days when perilous times come that people will be "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth...so do these also resist the truth..." A mark of being in the multitude in false doctrines after the falling away is that they resist the truth, and as II Peter 2: 2 says they speak evil of the way of truth.

The remnant found in Revelation 12:17, who have the testimony of Jesus Christ, and are outside of Babylon, not inside the camp of apostasy, but out in the spiritual wilderness (Revelation 12: 6,14), help to separate the wheat from the chaff in the threshing floor of Jeremiah 51: 33. "And the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the
testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12: 17

"Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining." Joel 3: 14-15

Toward the end of the age the conflict between the multitude and the remnant will be for many a valley of decision (Joel 3: 14), where those who have not come to the knowledge of the truth (I Timothy 2: 4, II Timothy 3: 7) are in a low place spiritually still have the opportunity to come to that knowledge and come out of false doctrines and out of the multitude into the remnant.
 
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