Ninjashadow
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Again, I agree with you, put all I'm suggesting is that it might be possible for Him to know. Whether he want's to know or not is beside the point.
The Theory of God's [lack of] Omniscience
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Again, I agree with you, put all I'm suggesting is that it might be possible for Him to know. Whether he want's to know or not is beside the point.
If God COULD know the future, He WOULD know the future. He cannot chose to not know something knowable. The only way he could know it as a certainty and exhaustively would be to bring it to pass negating libertarian free will. This is not the type of creation he chose, so it is a moot point (hypothetical vs real).
There are two motifs in Scripture: Some of the future is known and settled (predestined); some of the future is genuinely open and unsettled (free will contingencies).
I don't think that the Bible presents a picture of God that agrees with you on this point.
Just to give one example...
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
And I don't believe that this verse can be explained away by calling it a figure of speech either because after saying this God sends two angels down to investigate and acts in accordance with their findings.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Is this an issue about omnipresence? If God is everywhere, He should know what was going on. Some speculate that God is in a locality and would have to go down. Others say it is a figure of speech. Boyd takes it literally. William Lane Craig, another Open theologian, criticizes this as implying God is finite and limited. He attributes it to an anthropomorphism, lest we fall into the trap of Mormonism's physical god.
This account is not a didactic portion nor sytematic theology text. It is history and using descriptive language to describe God's interaction with men. Normally, Open Theists (of which I am one) take most passages literally (e.g. God changing His mind; not knowing things, etc.). This may be one case, in context, that should not be taken with a wooden literalism since it contradicts explicit passages that give parameters for His omnipresence and omniscience (God knows our hearts and minds; He does not have to send mediator angels to gather information...JWs have some ideas like this). God could still have known what was going on, but chose to have angels also involved in the mission. He knew what was happening before the angels did their thing (Gen. 19). He 'came down' Himself. Could this have been a theophany?
Succinct and true. The theological debate here is compatibilism (Calvinism= 'free will' is compatible with predestination/foreknowledge) vs incompatiblism (libertarian free will is not compatible with determinism).
Open Theism goes a step further than Calvinism or Arminianism, and recognizes that free will is not compatible with predestination nor exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies (Arminianism does affirm simple, exhaustive foreknowledge).
Okay, I don't believe that God is physical. Jesus, God the Son has a physical body now but didn't prior to the incarnation. Aside from that, however, God is a Spirit.
As to Omniscience, God knows all the He wants to know of that which is knowable.
As to Omnipresence, God is everywhere He wants to be that exists in reality. (i.e. God cannot go to a place that does not exist, nor does He have to be somewhere He doesn't want to be.)
As to Omnipotence, God ultimately controls all power and authority. He has delegated some of both to created things but is able to recall that power and authority at any time. God can do anything that is doable, that He wants to do. God is not forced to do something just because He can do it. Thus, He is not required to be were He doesn't want to be, witness what He doesn't want to witness, or know what He doesn't want to know.
Resting in Him,
Clete
I like the idea that omniscience means God knows everything knowable; omnipotence means He can do (but does not always do) everything doable. It is unusual, even for Open Theists, to add your clause about what He choses to know. This is Enyart or Hill's definition? Logical absurdities and contradictions are thus excluded. I still do not understand what you mean by chosing to not know something He could know. God cannot know the future exhaustively due to free will contingencies. This is different than saying there are real objects of knowledge that He choses to not know. What are some examples of this? Verses? Is this really coherent? For example, if God does not want to know past or present evil, how could He erase His memory? Every time we opened a history book or thought about our own sin, He would presumably be reminded again. We would know things that He does not know. The devil would also have more knowledge in some areas. Forgiveness is not forgetfulness. It is chosing to not bring old sin up again or holding us responsible for it due to a substitution for the penalty. God knows the past and present exhaustively. He knows the future as possibilities. So, what could God chose to not know apart from future actualities (unless He predestines them)?
There are many things that God could know that He doesn't need, nor probably want to know. For example, the number of photons of light that have reflected off the rear bumber of your car, or what it would be like to ride a tiny surf board down your urine stream on its way to the toilet, or how many pounds of fish food all the guppies in the world have in their mouths at this moment, or what specifically is going on right now in countless gay bars all over this country. He doesn't want to know, He doesn't need to know, and you don't have the power to force Him to find out, or to sit and watch and keep track of such things or to be a first person witness to all the vile goings on that we humans engage in.
As for verses of Scripture, I've already given you one gigantic one which you immediately dismissed as obviously having to mean something other that what it very clearly says. God knows what He wants to know, He forgets what He wants to forget, and can find out anything that He didn't witness first hand. It does no injury to God to allow Him control over His own mind.
Resting in Him,
Clete
ninjashadow-
I thought we had been over this.
I thought we had been over this.
Ninjashadow
New member
We have and I agree that God probably doesn't want to know the future so that we can have free will, but all I have been getting at is, "is it POSSIBLE that God could if He chose to."
And yet, Him knowing would negate free-will. And, the future does not exist, to be known. It can not be known, because there is nothing to be known.
Ninjashadow
New member
How can you say that the future does not exist? Is there specific bible passages attesting to this? I am NOT trying to be argumentative, if there is such passages I would like to see them.
Now, it does seem, on the surface, that there being a future, in a way, would negate free will, but I am not God, so I cannot know for sure.
I submit two examples....
Genesis 2:19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name.
Genesis 22:10 And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the Angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” So he said, “Here I am.” 12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
Ninjashadow
New member
Could it simply be that God wanted to see what Adam would call the animals because didn't ALLOW himself to see the future? That doesn't necessarily mean that the future does not exist.
If the future exists somehwere.... where does it exist?
Ninjashadow
New member
Tomarrow.
That isn't a description of a place.
Is the future in a bucket?
In an old shoe?
In a bottle?
In God's mind?
Where?
Ninjashadow
New member
IF, the future exists (and I'm not saying it does, but I'm also not saying it doesn't) it is always one step ahead of us (as in days, months, years).
Again... you are not actually answering the question. In essence you are saying the future exists in the future which is not an answer.
Think of it this way....
If God can "see" the future or go into the future, that future (or vision of the future) must exist somewhere, like in God's mind or in some celestial movie theatre with really great popcorn.
The ever passing moment exists right now!
And.....
The past exists in our minds to the extent we can remember it and the past exists in God's mind to the extent He wants to remember it.
So......
Where does the future exist?