ECT The theological structure of the DofJ overshadows the two standing towers

Interplanner

New member
"Catastrophic geological structures around the world completely overwhelm any concept of uniformitarianism." So what do skeptics do? They fuss and howl about being unable to find Noah's ark.

This reminds me of what D'ists do about the DofJ. You have not only a massive event in antiquity, more horrifiying and larger than the next of its kind--Pompeii. You also have an entire structural change of theology going on in the ending of the old covenant and start of the new. As though that change was a mere one of many dealing of cards in a night of games. As though God would go back and forth several times on this old and new shift.

So what do D'ists do? They fuss and how about finding 2 towers in the temple and believe they can dismiss not only Josephus but the event.

I wonder why they don't deal with the one thing (the only comment) that the priest-captain said about the cause of the event. It is that there was a prediction about an awful leader of rebellious men who would ruin the country; that's Daniel 8-9. It's no wonder those passages would be on a person's mind who went through it.

So while the rejection of this form of proof of the Bible has these people making a nuisance of themselves as they take Payne's side, what they are really ticked about is that their way of 'proving' the Bible is totally invested in 2P2P. 'There has to be a restoration of Israel or you are doubting God.'

Yet this has been dealt with. In Romans. what about the failure of Israel says Paul in 3:3? He says God actually is proven true in all this with the wrath that he is bringing--the DofJ on Israel and other things on the nations.

Moreover, Israel is supposed to be in Messiah's mission (decidedly NOT the other way around as among the zealots!!) That's what the middle of Rom 10 to the end of 11 is about. If Israel would be in that mission, it would leverage the blessing to the nations. it is not about restoration, because to introduce that idea after all that was said about the mission in 10-11 is to make poppycock out of the structure of the Bible.

Finally, on 'proving' God, there is the finale in rom 16. The incoming of the nations is is not a verbal command by God to the leaders of the early church to perform; it is a 'divine/kingly order' which God has brought about, more or less, on His own. It is a fact of history. Like when he spoke at creation, and what he spoke was then reality. There was no stopping it, and it has taken place. BUT IF YOU DON'T REALIZE THIS IS WHERE THE DESTINY OF ISRAEL WAS GOING THE WHOLE TIME, THEN YOU WILL DOUBT GOD IS DOING ANYTHING UNTIL THERE IS A 'LAND KINGDOM'!!!

If you know Hebrews and 2 Cor 3-5 etc, you know how dysfunctional it would be to go back to a restored old covenant, even more so, to go back only to come forward to the Gospel again. So you have people seriously thinking that there are animal sacrifices in a millenium TO KEEP 2P2P intact rather than the truth "in Christ."
 

Danoh

New member
Yep, decade after decade in his endless books "about" ...the Bible...has left Interplanner, completely clueless to the obvious; no matter how often pointed out to him...

The fact that he does not really know the Scripture.

Rather; decades of endless books supposedly "about" the Scripture.

There is NO getting through to such a...book worm.

None...
 

Interplanner

New member
The topic is not ME. The topic is what did Josephus mean by that explanation, other than how the priest understood Dan 8-9 and shown in Caiahphas?

Do you have any other words in your vocab except dismissive adjectives? You could use some.
 

Danoh

New member
The topic is not ME. The topic is what did Josephus mean by that explanation, other than how the priest understood Dan 8-9 and shown in Caiahphas?

Do you have any other words in your vocab except dismissive adjectives? You could use some.

But it's fun to get you riled up. Don't you see? You actually end up serving at least this one useful purpose :chuckle:

As for the remaining ENTIRE Wall and Two Towers...

Where - ANYWHERE in Scripture - does ANY "prophecy of the Scripture" fail to come to pass 100%?

Only in man's books "about" does even a percentage as high as 99% plus Zero equal 100%.

It is the way of men...

As with those phoney, half-baked Pentecostal healings where some guy supposedly had his sight restored and now he just needs a pair of strong prescription eye glasses to get by :rotfl:

That is your walk by sight in Josephus.

Like it...or not.

Believe it...or not.
 

Interplanner

New member
But it's fun to get you riled up. Don't you see? You actually end up serving at least this one useful purpose :chuckle:

As for the remaining ENTIRE Wall and Two Towers...

Where - ANYWHERE in Scripture - does ANY "prophecy of the Scripture" fail to come to pass 100%?

Only in man's books "about" does even a percentage as high as 99% plus Zero equal 100%.

It is the way of men...

As with those phoney, half-baked Pentecostal healings where some guy supposedly had his sight restored and now he just needs a pair of strong prescription eye glasses to get by :rotfl:

That is your walk by sight in Josephus.

Like it...or not.

Believe it...or not.



Yes, there are cities mentioned by the prophets that were supposed to disappear "forever" and many centuries later they are back.

The concept of "forever" is totally misunderstood.

Once again, you have so little sense of judgement to deal with the real issues. It's: what does it mean that Josephus based his reason for the DofJ on Dan 8-9?

The walk by sight crowd are those neo-Judaizers seeking, or claiming as fact, that the restored sight Israel is coming/here.

Walking by faith is to be full of what is true in Christ.

I believe that's the core mistake you are involved in. I know you said it months ago, but I'd forgotten to check it out.
 

Danoh

New member
Never mind that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision - to what intended end - for the truth of God - in other words - to confirm the promises made unto the fathers - were now upon them.

For the Law and the Prophets prophesied - concerning said promises - until John...

And Nathaniel said Rabbi thou art the Son of God - in other words - thou art the King of Israel.

And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

And that last passage has yet to come to pass.

For the Son Who is to abide forever over Israel as King of Israel is even now...in exile...expecting til He make His enemies His footstool...
 

Interplanner

New member
But it's fun to get you riled up. Don't you see? You actually end up serving at least this one useful purpose :chuckle:

As for the remaining ENTIRE Wall and Two Towers...

Where - ANYWHERE in Scripture - does ANY "prophecy of the Scripture" fail to come to pass 100%?

Only in man's books "about" does even a percentage as high as 99% plus Zero equal 100%.

It is the way of men...

As with those phoney, half-baked Pentecostal healings where some guy supposedly had his sight restored and now he just needs a pair of strong prescription eye glasses to get by :rotfl:

That is your walk by sight in Josephus.

Like it...or not.

Believe it...or not.



As for the 'bottom line' of the event:

the old covenant was decimated
1.5M dead
the ground was thermally dangerous for some years, postponing work by the Romans to change it to another city
the cannibalism
the voice of God

Yeah, it's all just a freak coincidence that Jesus said something like it was going to happen in that generation. It would take a mad person to say it was not that.
 

Interplanner

New member
Never mind that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision - to what intended end - for the truth of God - in other words - to confirm the promises made unto the fathers - were now upon them.

For the Law and the Prophets prophesied - concerning said promises - until John...

And Nathaniel said Rabbi thou art the Son of God - in other words - thou art the King of Israel.

And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

And that last passage has yet to come to pass.

For the Son Who is to abide forever over Israel as King of Israel is even now...in exile...expecting til He make His enemies His footstool...


Oh great, so just the russians and persians are his enemies. Junk theology. Ever heard of the NHNE? It comes upon the total incineration of this place, do you see?
 

Interplanner

New member
I didn't understand a word of that opening post. :idunno:


The streams of thought in Hebrews, and some similars in Colossians and 2 Cor 3-5 are themselves enough to validate and recognize the significance of the destruction of Jerusalem as it affects the old covenant/Judaism.

Instead of trying to restate hope for a coming theocracy in Israel, Hebrews is full of excitement about the kingdom above and affecting us, that is unshakeable, and the cloud of believers there in joyful worship.
 

Danoh

New member
The topic is not ME. The topic is what did Josephus mean by that explanation, other than how the priest understood Dan 8-9 and shown in Caiahphas?

Do you have any other words in your vocab except dismissive adjectives? You could use some.

Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

The Wars Of The Jews

Or

The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem

Book VII

CONTAINING THE INTERVAL OF ABOUT THREE YEARS.
FROM THE TAKING OF JERUSALEM BY TITUS TO THE SEDITION AT CYRENE
CHAPTER 1.

HOW THE ENTIRE CITY OF JERUSALEM WAS DEMOLISHED, EXCEPTING THREE TOWERS; AND HOW TITUS COMMENDED HIS SOLDIERS IN A SPEECH MADE TO THEM, AND DISTRIBUTED REWARDS TO THEM AND THEN DISMISSED MANY OF THEM.

1. NOW as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury, (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done,) Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall as enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison, as were the towers also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind.
 

Interplanner

New member
Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

The Wars Of The Jews

Or

The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem

Book VII

CONTAINING THE INTERVAL OF ABOUT THREE YEARS.
FROM THE TAKING OF JERUSALEM BY TITUS TO THE SEDITION AT CYRENE
CHAPTER 1.

HOW THE ENTIRE CITY OF JERUSALEM WAS DEMOLISHED, EXCEPTING THREE TOWERS; AND HOW TITUS COMMENDED HIS SOLDIERS IN A SPEECH MADE TO THEM, AND DISTRIBUTED REWARDS TO THEM AND THEN DISMISSED MANY OF THEM.

1. NOW as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury, (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done,) Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall as enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison, as were the towers also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind.



the city was so badly decimated, people didn't think it was ever inhabited. Oh, I guess I'm not supposed to see that line.

The question, however, is what your comment is on Josephus explanation from Dan 8-9?
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
the city was so badly decimated, people didn't think it was ever inhabited. Oh, I guess I'm not supposed to see that line.

They (Darby Followers) also don't want you to know about the Christians who fled to the hills after the Romans surrounded the city (just like Jesus said), nor the embankments the Romans built around the city (just like Jesus said), nor that the city was divided into three factions (just like Revelation says), nor that the Romans hurled 100 talent stones at the city (just like Revelation says), nor that some who were standing next to Jesus were still alive when all this happened (just like Jesus said).
 

Interplanner

New member
They (Darby Followers) also don't want you to know about the Christians who fled to the hills after the Romans surrounded the city (just like Jesus said), nor the embankments the Romans built around the city (just like Jesus said), nor that the city was divided into three factions (just like Revelation says), nor that the Romans hurled 100 talent stones at the city (just like Revelation says), nor that some who were standing next to Jesus were still alive when all this happened (just like Jesus said).

Yep. Lots of censorship.

They'd rather insult Holford in his grave and see Payne advance.
 

SaulToPaul

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Silver Subscriber
Hall of Fame
They (Darby Followers) also don't want you to know about the Christians who fled to the hills after the Romans surrounded the city (just like Jesus said), nor the embankments the Romans built around the city (just like Jesus said), nor that the city was divided into three factions (just like Revelation says), nor that the Romans hurled 100 talent stones at the city (just like Revelation says), nor that some who were standing next to Jesus were still alive when all this happened (just like Jesus said).

Yet God did not defend them as the Revelation and the prophets says he would.
 

SaulToPaul

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Silver Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Yep. Lots of censorship.

They'd rather insult Holford in his grave and see Payne advance.

Holforidan and Paynian tribute is one thing, but not expressing the spiritual enterprise of 1 Peter 1A and 2B is unconsciencable in light of the reverberation of events of the first century, particularly those involving the ceasure of red dirt prophecy and shifting to NHNE paradigm, which is outstanding. Agreed?
 
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