ECT The Sovereignty of God?

[Cross Reference]

Change is expressly spoken of...instant upon receiving Faith, and patient perseverance in GOD'S Word more and more over time because of love of GOD, and willingness to do because of belief.

This is wholly in my own words and may not seem scriptural to some, but I believe it to be for a multitude of reasons, least of which are not faith in GOD and the truth of the Word, both manifest and written.

peace

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Question: How does one receive faith when faith is needed in order to receive it? What other faith can you be referring to except "the faith OF the Son of God" which is a gift of the Spirit [one of nine] Paul lived by, if you read Gal 2:20 from the KJB?

 

[popsthebuilder]

Question: How does one receive faith when faith is needed in order to receive it? What other faith can you be referring to except "the faith OF the Son of God" which is a gift of the Spirit [one of nine] Paul lived by, if you read Gal 2:20 from the KJB?

I'm not sure where your question stems from exactly.

I didn't say faith takes faith, and I didn't mean to insinuate it either.

Faith is a free gift, no doubt.

But one cannot receive anything from that in which they have no belief whatsoever.

One must hope on the LORD.

Such is not the same as being faithful to the LORD once being given faith in the LORD.

Does that clear it up at all?

peace

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[Cross Reference]

I'm not sure where your question stems from exactly.

I didn't say faith takes faith, and I didn't mean to insinuate it either.

Faith is a free gift, no doubt

.

Where is the gift part come into play for the one who has faith to believe?

But one cannot receive anything from that in which they have no belief whatsoever.

Ok. I see that.

One must hope on the LORD.

How does one hope without faith?

Such is not the same as being faithful to the LORD once being given faith in the LORD.

Does that clear it up at all?

Not hardly if yu consider my reply to be rational. For instance, everyone from birth has a measure of faith for believing whatever he chooses. God saw fit to build such faith coupled with independence into His plan at conception of all children. By this is the expression "childlike faith" made easy to understood. So we can now see that viewing someone we believe has no faith is really one who has his fairshare plus the independence to refuse/reject whatever he dislikes.

 

[popsthebuilder]

.

Where is the gift part come into play for the one who has faith to believe?



Ok. I see that.



How does one hope without faith?



Not hardly if yu consider my reply to be rational. For instance, everyone from birth has a measure of faith for believing whatever he chooses. God saw fit to build such independence into His plan at the conception of a child. Ergo, the expression "childlike faith" is easily understood. So we can now see that viewing someone we believe has no faith is really one who has his fairshare plus the independence to refuse/reject whatever he dislikes.

You are loosing me.

If one has faith or rather; belief, then they have already received the gift. Being that they have received it,(faith) it should be affecting their life for better. Not better as in personal attainment, but better as in having a known relationship with GOD, hearing the direction or will of GOD in one's own life, and abiding by what is heard due to love; not that we loved GOD, but that GOD loves us, and showed us and we do believe due to the Word of GOD.

I cannot imagine one being able to wholly throw aside the gift of faith once receiving it.

I don't understand what you where getting at using your example of faith from conception or one's right to deny whatever they so choose.

To me such doesn't come into play really.

To deny a thing justifiably one most know it is contrary to the Will of GOD. One knows because they have heard and did listen and do follow and bring into rememberance, those things shown them by GOD.

Having faith from conception due to the very nature in which man is formed and the substance he is formed of is indeed plausible to me. I cannot really comment on it any further than that though, at this time without risking conjecture.



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[Cross Reference]

You are loosing me.

If one has faith or rather; belief, then they have already received the gift. Being that they have received it,(faith) it should be affecting their life for better. Not better as in personal attainment, but better as in having a known relationship with GOD, hearing the direction or will of GOD in one's own life, and abiding by what is heard due to love; not that we loved GOD, but that GOD loves us, and showed us and we do believe due to the Word of GOD.

I cannot imagine one being able to wholly throw aside the gift of faith once receiving it.

I don't understand what you where getting at using your example of faith from conception or one's right to deny whatever they so choose.

To me such doesn't come into play really.

To deny a thing justifiably one most know it is contrary to the Will of GOD. One knows because they have heard and did listen and do follow and bring into rememberance, those things shown them by GOD.

Having faith from conception due to the very nature in which man is formed and the substance he is formed of is indeed plausible to me. I cannot really comment on it any further than that though, at this time without risking conjecture.



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No conjecture . . . Fact! Try for understanding by changing your perspective from the top down to bottom up:

". . . . And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;" Romans 1:28 (KJV)


One more time:

". . . . . For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Romans 12:2-3 (KJV)

God can't command "rejection". Judgment is what they are sealed to. His commands go out to those who seek Him; whose will is His Will.

 

[popsthebuilder]

No conjecture . . . Fact! Try for understanding by changing your perspective from the top down to bottom up:

". . . . And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;" Romans 1:28 (KJV)


One more time:

". . . . . For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Romans 12:2-3 (KJV)

God can't command "rejection". Judgment is what they are sealed to. His commands go out to those who seek Him; whose will is His Will.

It seems like you want to argue some point, but I'm not sure what that point is.

Perhaps you could plainly state it again.

I don't even think we are in disagreement, but can't be certain because I'm not certain of your point.

Are you saying that everyone has faith in GOD upon conception?

And when I said conjecture, it was about me, not wanting to assume or make conjecture, and in no way was it me saying you are making false claims or conjecture yourself.



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[Cross Reference]

Are you saying that everyone has faith in GOD upon conception?

Only by your mis-representing what I wrote am i saying that.

So are you saying you didn't have faith; couldn't believe in something/someone from conception? If not then when would you say yu received your faith for believing, lets say, in your mother that she would change your wet diaper? . . or did she gift yu with such faith?

 

[popsthebuilder]

Only by your mis-representing what I wrote am i saying that.

So are you saying you didn't have faith in something/someone from conception?

Hard to say; I don't think one produces or stores memories until about two or three years of age.

I recall having belief at a young age, but then loosing all of said belief also at a very young age. Regardless of if my initial belief was faith or from conception, it was seemingly negated by the atrocities and misdirection of man.

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[Cross Reference]

Hard to say; I don't think one produces or stores memories until about two or three years of age.

I recall having belief at a young age, but then loosing all of said belief also at a very young age. Regardless of if my initial belief was faith or from conception, it was seemingly negated by the atrocities and misdirection of man.

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Remember or not, the fact remains you believed in you mother to be there; you were originally endowed with a "measure of faith" that you exercised in life. That is my point. Now please go back and re-read Romans 1:28 to know mankind mentioned also knew God to believe in Him until their faith. . "was seemingly negated by the atrocities and misdirection of man".

 

[Danoh]

Question: How does one receive faith when faith is needed in order to receive it? What other faith can you be referring to except "the faith OF the Son of God" which is a gift of the Spirit [one of nine] Paul lived by, if you read Gal 2:20 from the KJB?

A thought on this...

VERY OFTEN, the Scripture will define what it meant in its use of one word or phrase, or another, by the next word or phrase it then uses.

Further, such things will just as often be found to be based on a Doctrine or Teaching the writer is merely basing what he is talking about on, and this influences the intended sense of the word or phrase being communicated by said writer, in this case: The Apostle Paul.

Case in point...

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In other words - I am crucified with Christ...and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God...

The faith of the Son of God?

What do YOU mean by that Paul?

Well, I just told you - by my very next phrase - "who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Hunh?

You know, as the writer of Hebrews also put that...

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Oh, you mean this "faith OF the Son of God..." - HIS fidelity to what He came to do, for that "great love wherewith He loved" us, Eph. 2:4.

A fidelity to what He came to in His great love, as demonstrated in...

Luke 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. 22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

GREAT! Love...INDEED!

He loved us so that He was faith-FULL TO what He came to do in OUR stead.

Remember this?

Matthew 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Exactly.

As the Lord had been settled in, or faithful to... what He had come to do...

Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

In other words "Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free" (F.F. Bruce) had determined to allow himself to be so gripped by that same faith OF Christ in His love for Paul that He had died for Paul.

How was Paul determined in that? What had been the "secret" to his amazing victory in the Lord?

His determined focus on the Lord's great love for Paul, that day "on that old rugged cross..." (Brad Paisley).

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

All this AND MORE is the DOCTRINE of...

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

It is the Doctrine of...

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

In other words, the Doctrine of looking out at life and others from a perspective of Romans 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

Amazing Grace...indeed.

 

[Cross Reference]

A thought on this...

VERY OFTEN, the Scripture will define what it meant in its use of one word or phrase, or another, by the next word or phrase it then uses.

Further, such things will just as often be found to be based on a Doctrine or Teaching the writer is merely basing what he is talking about on, and this influences the intended sense of the word or phrase being communicated by said writer, in this case: The Apostle Paul.

Case in point...

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In other words - I am crucified with Christ...and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God...

The faith of the Son of God?

What do YOU mean by that Paul?

Well, I just told you - by my very next phrase - "who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Hunh?

You know, as the writer of Hebrews also put that...

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Oh, you mean this "faith OF the Son of God..." - HIS fidelity to what He came to do, for that "great love wherewith He loved" us, Eph. 2:4.

A fidelity to what He came to in His great love, as demonstrated in...

Luke 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. 22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

GREAT! Love...INDEED!

He loved us so that He was faith-FULL TO what He came to do in OUR stead.

Remember this?

Matthew 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Exactly.

As the Lord had been settled in, or faithful to... what He had come to do...

Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

In other words "Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free" (F.F. Bruce) had determined to allow himself to be so gripped by that same faith OF Christ in His love for Paul that He had died for Paul.

How was Paul determined in that? What had been the "secret" to his amazing victory in the Lord?

His determined focus on the Lord's great love for Paul, that day "on that old rugged cross..." (Brad Paisley).

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

All this AND MORE is the DOCTRINE of...

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

It is the Doctrine of...

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

In other words, the Doctrine of looking out at life and others from a perspective of Romans 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

Amazing Grace...indeed.

By the KJB rendering of Gal 2:20, Paul is actualuty saying he lives by the very LIFE of the Son of God.

. . . Intimacy anyone?

 

[Danoh]

By the KJB rendering of Gal 2:20, Paul is actualuty saying he lives by the very LIFE of the Son of God.

. . . Intimacy anyone?

Exactly - Romans 5: 6-8.

 

[Cross Reference]

Exactly - Romans 5: 6-8.

Huh???

 

[Danoh]

Huh???

That event is what makes even living His life...possible.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

The concept is a Doctrine or Teaching on...the CRUCIFIED life...

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

The concept is a Doctrine or Teaching or Instruction In Righteousness - this side of - The Cross...

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

In short, Rom. 5: 6-8 in each our stead and as a result, the life and attitude, and perspective and walk that now enables in one - by faith.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Ye received Him - By Faith - so walk ye in Him - By Faith.

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In other words, we Believe in, and then walk in Him, in memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

 

[Cross Reference]

That event is what makes even living His life...possible.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

The concept is a Doctrine or Teaching on...the CRUCIFIED life...

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

The concept is a Doctrine or Teaching or Instruction In Righteousness - this side of - The Cross...

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

In short, Rom. 5: 6-8 in each our stead and as a result, the life and attitude, and perspective and walk that now enables in one - by faith.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Ye received Him - By Faith - so walk ye in Him - By Faith.

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

In other words, we Believe in, and then walk in Him, in memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

You mean Nicodemus didn't need to be born again after all?