beloved57
Well-known member
Huh, where that come from ?
ECT The Sin Unto Death
- Thread starter nikolai_42
- Start date
Huh, where that come from ?
OZOS
Well-known member
"If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death. We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him." 1 John 5:16- 18
In the very first verse of chapter 5, John says that "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God".
It is indisputable. If you have believed the Gospel, the message concerning Christ's once for all sacrifice for sin, His burial, and His resurrection unto justification of life, you are "born of God". You have received His life "It is the Spirit that gives life." (John 6:63)
So in the passages you are questioning, we see 3 kinds of people.
1. Those who are saved.
2. Those who can be saved.
3. Those who cannot be saved.
#3 Those who cannot be saved are those who do not believe the Gospel. You cannot pray for them to receive life, because they do not believe in Jesus. They cannot be "born of God". The sin of unbelief leads to death.
#2 Then there are those who commit sin, not leading to death. This is sin that is not unbelief, but sin that Jesus shed His blood for on the cross. Those who believe in Jesus, who believe the Gospel, can receive life, because that sin has been dealt with on the cross. Any sin that Jesus gave His life for, does not lead to eternal death.
#1 Those who have been "born of God" are those who have received His life.
"The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." 1 John 5:10-12
Being born of God, you cannot sin.
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9
Therefore, those who reject Christ cannot receive life.
Those who believe the gospel do receive life.
Those who have received life cannot sin, because they are born of God.
In the very first verse of chapter 5, John says that "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God".
It is indisputable. If you have believed the Gospel, the message concerning Christ's once for all sacrifice for sin, His burial, and His resurrection unto justification of life, you are "born of God". You have received His life "It is the Spirit that gives life." (John 6:63)
So in the passages you are questioning, we see 3 kinds of people.
1. Those who are saved.
2. Those who can be saved.
3. Those who cannot be saved.
#3 Those who cannot be saved are those who do not believe the Gospel. You cannot pray for them to receive life, because they do not believe in Jesus. They cannot be "born of God". The sin of unbelief leads to death.
#2 Then there are those who commit sin, not leading to death. This is sin that is not unbelief, but sin that Jesus shed His blood for on the cross. Those who believe in Jesus, who believe the Gospel, can receive life, because that sin has been dealt with on the cross. Any sin that Jesus gave His life for, does not lead to eternal death.
#1 Those who have been "born of God" are those who have received His life.
"The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." 1 John 5:10-12
Being born of God, you cannot sin.
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9
Therefore, those who reject Christ cannot receive life.
Those who believe the gospel do receive life.
Those who have received life cannot sin, because they are born of God.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I can't say I see these three types of people in John's writing. I only see #'s 1 and 3. John seems to be particularly black and white about this matter - as you have pointed out he defines those who are born of God vs. those who aren't. There isn't any hint (that I can see) of him thinking about a third category. The way you define #3 makes it a variation on #2. And since John isn't talking about potentials, I can't see this distinction (whether it is a valid one or not) being applicable here.
In John's gospel, we have Jesus telling Nicodemus that those who don't believe are condemned already. So I take it that John is using that understanding to distinguish simply between believer and unbeliever. And because he uses the term "brother" in an apparently spiritual way (i.e. those who are fellow believers - I John 2:7), I take it that I John 5:16 is making the point that the sin to pray for in a brother is one not unto death - as opposed to the one that is unto death. And since he is already talking about a brother, I would think that implies that the sin unto death is a possibility for the brother.
And rereading your point here - can one not pray for the conversion of another? And thinking about the sin not unto death - it seems to be something that is seen in a single action, whereas the sin of unbelief is neither punctiliar nor expected in a brother in Christ.
I like this point. I read v12 as being especially pertinent for the definition of life for the following verses. But the conundrum comes when you realize that the implication of that verse is that a brother can possibly commit the sin unto death. The wording forces that to be at least a possibility and should only be discarded with good cause.
So how is it that a believer can commit this sin unto death? If they are born of God (as you point out) they can't sin. But the fact that this one is called "brother" shows that a believer certainly can sin.
If those who have received life cannot sin, then those who have received life after sinning a sin not unto death have received that life - correct? So would you then say that any sin that that brother sins thereafter is necessarily unto death?
7djengo7
This space intentionally left blank
Where did what come from?
I was merely pointing out that you have no hope of harmonizing your (Calvinism's) false, un-Biblical doctrine of "the perseverance of the saints" with your admission that saints can apostatize from the faith.
beloved57
Well-known member
I have no idea what you talking about. I don't believe you do
OZOS
Well-known member
I will address your other points when time permits, but I believe John is speaking of Jewish "brothers", not Christian brothers. I do not believe a Christian brother can walk in darkness.
"But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes." 1 Jn 2:11
John 8:12; Acts 26:18; Eph 5:8; Col 1:3; 1 Thes 5:4-5; 1 Peter 2:9; John 12:46
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I think that's a very difficult thing to prove. For one thing, Jesus says that anyone who does the will of His Father is his brother, sister and mother. Paul specifically carries that on when he calls the Roman church brethren (Rom 8:12) and then the same thing with the Corinthian church (I Cor 1:26). When he specifically refers to his fellow Israelites, he calls them brethren as well (Rom 9:3). The fact that he calls both of them brothers I see as indicating that which "brother" he means is dependent on who he is speaking with. If Gentile believers, then brethren likely implies the spiritual bond. If other Jews, then the natural bond. And since the spiritual bond has precedence over the natural, I would have to take the term as implying the spiritual - unless the context clearly puts that in question.
As for walking in darkness, John seems to be saying in chapters 1 and 2 of his epistle that the evidence that someone is not walking in darkness is that he loves the brethren (i.e. fellow believers). Jesus - having identified His own mothers, brothers and sisters in spiritual terms - makes it clear that those who forsake their natural connections to follow Him will inherit a vast familial connection (among other things). In other words, to say someone is in darkness because he doesn't love a certain ethnic or cultural group is to downgrade the recognition that the new birth is spiritual and puts the believer in spiritual relationship with every other believer. And the evidence of that is that his heart is towards those believers - even more than towards those of his own flesh (Matthew 19:29, Mark 10:29-30, Luke 14:26). So in tandem with the way I have to read the use of the term "brethren", I see the evidence of light as not being sinlessness - but rather the love of the children of light. To change that to flesh is to undermine the emphasis that Jesus and Paul both so clearly put on the spiritual over the physical.
OZOS
Well-known member
In this case, they cannot logically be "spiritual brethren", specifically because, if they are in "darkness", then they are not "born of God". Thus, no spiritual relationship. You cannot call someone a "brother", (spiritually) unless they are "one spirit with Him (Christ)". It is the spiritual aspect of being "made alive", in union with Christ, that affirms the spiritual relationship. No child of God can walk in darkness.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
It sounds to me as though you are contending that someone who does not walk in darkness also will not sin. There's nothing (that I can see) in what John wrote that prevents someone who is in the light from sinning.
OZOS
Well-known member
What about John's own words, or rather, the word of God?
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." 1 John 3:4-6
"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3:8
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9
or the words of Jesus...
"Everyone who commits sin, is the slave of sin" - John 8:34
The apostle Paul confirms...
"But thanks be to God that though you WERE slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed (the Gospel), and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness." Rom 6:17-18
"The power of sin is the Law." 1 Cor 15:56
"The Law is not of faith" Gal 3;12
"Apart from the Law sin is dead." Rom 7:8
"The righteous will live by faith". Gal 3:11
As we know, sin is lawlessness, a violation of the law. Therefore, where there is no law, neither is there violation.
In order for those in Christ to be guilty or convicted of sin, they must be subject to law.
As Jesus said, EVERYONE who commits sin IS a slave of sin. No one who has been born of God is, nor can be, a slave of sin. Thus, no one who abides in Him sins, for they cannot sin, because they are born of God.
Good discussion. Thanks.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I'm curious - and you may not return - but would you consider Peter to have been saved? What about the Galatian church? Or the Corinthian church? Were those Paul was writing to (in your view) saved or not?
Right Divider
Body part
Peter was looking forward to a future salvation.
The circumcision (i.e., the Jews under the law) were not given the same type of guaranteed salvation that Paul speaks of for those that are not under the law (i.e., the body of Christ).
7djengo7
This space intentionally left blank
Are you really as stupid as you are making yourself to sound, here? Or, instead, are you just lying--pretending to be stupid--because you know that you have no hope of harmonizing your admission that saints can apostatize from the faith with your (Calvinism's) un-Biblical claim of "perseverance of the saints"?
To persevere in the faith is to not apostatize from it. To apostatize from the faith is to not persevere in it. So, when you admit that saints can apostatize from the faith, you are contradicting your claim that they will persevere in the faith, and when you claim that saints will persevere in the faith, you are contradicting your admission that they can apostatize from it.
Perseverance in the faith and apostacy from the faith are mutually exclusive. One who is in apostacy from the faith is not persevering in it, and one who is persevering in the faith is not in apostacy from it.
Are persons who are apostates from the faith persons who are persevering in the faith? Yes or No?
beloved57
Well-known member
Please show me the post where I said a saint can apostasize from the faith.
7djengo7
This space intentionally left blank
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I hope you'll understand if I don't respond to your answer. My question was specifically for OZOS because I'm trying to understand where he is coming from. He believes repentance is a work (and therefore not required for salvation) and it sounds like he has defined the believer in a very specific way so that most of what is said in I John has to do with how the believer treats the Jews (first) and even unbelievers. But where the believer is defined, that definition is given in terms of his sin (he doesn't sin) and his love for a specific ethnic group. So it sounds to me (and I could be wrong) like he believes in sinless perfection. That's what I'm trying to understand - and why I asked about certain Pauline epistles to troubled churches and about Peter who clearly took a sinful position. But OZOS may not consider that sin (I don't know). And it may just come down to definition of terms such that he sees salvation as a process more than a one-time event that then works itself out.
But based on the way he ended his last post, I'm wondering if he just considers the discussion completed and not worth pursuing any longer.
ttruscott
Well-known member
I do agree.
But please consider these modifications:
1. Those sinners who are saved, who have had the promise of salvation, ie election, fulfilled in their lives by grace thru faith, are the saved.
2. Those sinners who can be saved, ie, who are under the promise of election to HIS kingdom conformed to the nature of Christ can have and will have the election promise of salvation fulfilled in themselves.
3. Those sinners who cannot be saved, who were not chosen out to be HIS people but who were left to their sins and the natural consequences of that sin are not under the promise of salvation since they were not chosen to be saved and so cannot be saved.
So the questions become clear:
How did sinners become sinners?
How did some sin the unforgivable sin and lose their chance to become elect?
It goes against the goodness of GOD, the very nature of HIS loving and righteous justice, to believe:
1. that HE created anyone to be evil by any method whatsoever, even by using Adam to make us evil in his evil.
2. that HE passed over for election to salvation anyone who could have been saved, ie, who had not sinned the unforgivable sin yet HE refused to save them from their sin.
3. that HE counts anything as a sin in any of HIS creation except a free will decision to reject HIM, or to rebel against HIM.
That is, all sin is by our free will decison to either to reject all faith in HIM as their GOD believing, ie putting their faith, their unproven hope in HIS being a false god and a liar - the unforgivable sin - OR, after accepting HIM as their GOD, ie, putting their faith, their unproven hope in HIM as their GOD, they rebelled against a commandment HE gave them as HIS elect.
OZOS
Well-known member
I will be happy to address other verses (one at a time), which could be perceived that those born of God can still sin, but first can we agree that none in Christ can be in darkness?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I think - as a general principle - I can agree with that. A man who is in Christ cannot abide (remain) in darkness (John 12:46). Men who come to Christ pass from death to life - and Christ is the Light, but that light doesn't always have its full effect immediately. The Lord's work is eternal and it doesn't always get worked out instantaneously in the temporal. So in that sense, I can't make the leap from one to the other (by necessity, anyway). I see that statement about darkness saying that men will have various stages of understanding and awareness of spiritual things. But the one necessary indication of being in Christ is a natural spiritual love for those of the same Spirit (i.e. in Christ). That can't be faked and is the indicator to look for when trying to determine if someone has passed from death to life.