Theology Club: The Open/Closed Conundrum.

[Pneuma]

Can you support that position with Scripture?

Lighthouse here is a explanation I gave to some others on another board who claimed Gods foreknowledge is static.

God’s foreknowledge
For the purpose of this article when I speak of Gods foreknowledge as being static, I am referring to the idea that Gods foreknowledge is understood as being BEFORE the creation of the world.

God’s foreknowledge of things is not always static.

When God is speaking of the things He will do, the things He plans and carries out Gods foreknowledge is static.

However, when God is speaking concerning the freewill of man Gods foreknowledge is not static.

We need to learn to rightly divide the scriptures.

Let’s look at Gods static foreknowledge.
Isaiah 46:10
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

This scripture is always used to show that Gods foreknowledge is static; however, it is used to show that Gods foreknowledge is ALWAYS static. But is that really what it shows? Or does it show that God’s foreknowledge is static because it is speaking of the things God will do?


Let’s look at the rest of those scriptures.
Isaiah 46:10-13
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
*
These are all things God will do; they have NOTHING to do with what man will do.
Gods static foreknowledge of what He will do is our assurance.

However, Gods foreknowledge is not always static, when man is concerned God foreknowledge is dependent on the freewill of man.

Let’s see if this is also true.

2Kings 20
Hezekiah was sick unto death, and God sent Isaiah to him to tell him to put his house in order for he would die of his sickness. Hezekiah obviously did not believe Gods prophesy concerning him was static as he prayed to God concerning his death. God heard his prayer and sent Isaiah back with a different prophecy. I will add 15 years to your life.

Now if Gods foreknowledge is always static why did Hezekiah not die from his sickness as God said he would? If God foreknew Hezekiah would pray and that He would add 15 years to Hezekiah’s life was it not a lie God told Hezekiah when He told him he would die?

Here we see that prayer can change Gods mind, and if God can change His mind is it not obvious that His foreknowledge is not always static?

Here are a couple more scriptures that show prayer can change Gods mind about things He has said He would do.
Ex.32:9-14
Nu.14:12-20

Scriptures that show disobedience, obedience, repentance, prayer etc. can and has changed Gods mind concerning things He has said He would do.

Even in the very beginning, in Gods dealing with man, we see were God changed His mind because of man’s disobedience. God told Adam that he could freely eat of every tree in the garden except one. However, when Adam disobeyed God the garden became off limits to Adam and Adam could no longer freely eat from the trees in it.

Even Jesus did not believe God’s will was always static, as He prayer that the cup be removed from Him. We know that the cup was not removed from Him, however that Jesus prayed that it be removed shows Jesus believed prayer can change Gods mind.

.
If God foreknowledge is always static, why does God say that when Israel sent their children into the fires of Moloch that doing this had NEVER ENTERED INTO HIS MIND?
Jeremiah 19:5
5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
*
If God knows all thing’s man will do before man sets their hearts on doing them, then surely God would have foreknown that Israel would send their children into the fires of Moloch. Yet He says this never entered into His mind.
*
*
Gods foreknowledge of an event does NOT have to be 1 day (or something that happens tomorrow), 100 years or a 1000 years before the event happens. Gods Foreknowledge can be something that He sees 30 seconds before the event takes place and it would still be foreknowledge.
*
I am only going to give one set of scriptures (you know the other ones I have used) to show forth this principle.
Remember the other scriptures I gave as you read this.
*
*
And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me
*
*
Gods foreknowledge and Gods all-knowing aspect work hand in hand although they are different aspects.
*
Gods foreknowledge of what man will do any given moment comes from His presence of always being with man. By always being with man, He searches out the intent of man’s heart and knows what man will do before man does it.
*
It is not the type of foreknowledge that knows 1 day in the future (as tomorrows breakfast), but rather the foreknowledge that takes place just before (30 seconds) before the event actually takes place.
*
Back to the scriptures I just gave.
*
What those scriptures show is that God knew just before (30 second)(30 seconds is just an example it could have been a minute) Abe withheld nothing from him. This can be seen in that God stopped Abe BEFORE Abe actually killed his son.
*
Thus Gods foreknowledge and His all-knowing aspect work wonderfully together.

 

[Lighthouse]

When a future event is contingent on the acts a free agents then the event may or may not occur. A free agent is not by definition bound to make the particular choices necessary to create that future scenario. For God to say at a certain date in the future rebellion and apostasy will be rampant like it never has been before He would be basing His statement on something He cannot know

Not necessarily. Man's depravity, and capacity for such, is well known to God: history bears it out; thus it is completely reasonable for God to predict such will be the case. Man has yet to prove otherwise.

Lighthouse here is a explanation I gave to some others on another board who claimed Gods foreknowledge is static.

It's not static; it's dynamic.

God’s foreknowledge
For the purpose of this article when I speak of Gods foreknowledge as being static, I am referring to the idea that Gods foreknowledge is understood as being BEFORE the creation of the world.

God’s foreknowledge of things is not always static.

When God is speaking of the things He will do, the things He plans and carries out Gods foreknowledge is static.

However, when God is speaking concerning the freewill of man Gods foreknowledge is not static.

We need to learn to rightly divide the scriptures.

Let’s look at Gods static foreknowledge.
Isaiah 46:10
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

This scripture is always used to show that Gods foreknowledge is static; however, it is used to show that Gods foreknowledge is ALWAYS static. But is that really what it shows? Or does it show that God’s foreknowledge is static because it is speaking of the things God will do?


Let’s look at the rest of those scriptures.
Isaiah 46:10-13
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
*
These are all things God will do; they have NOTHING to do with what man will do.
Gods static foreknowledge of what He will do is our assurance.

However, Gods foreknowledge is not always static, when man is concerned God foreknowledge is dependent on the freewill of man.

Let’s see if this is also true.

2Kings 20
Hezekiah was sick unto death, and God sent Isaiah to him to tell him to put his house in order for he would die of his sickness. Hezekiah obviously did not believe Gods prophesy concerning him was static as he prayed to God concerning his death. God heard his prayer and sent Isaiah back with a different prophecy. I will add 15 years to your life.

Now if Gods foreknowledge is always static why did Hezekiah not die from his sickness as God said he would? If God foreknew Hezekiah would pray and that He would add 15 years to Hezekiah’s life was it not a lie God told Hezekiah when He told him he would die?

Here we see that prayer can change Gods mind, and if God can change His mind is it not obvious that His foreknowledge is not always static?

Here are a couple more scriptures that show prayer can change Gods mind about things He has said He would do.
Ex.32:9-14
Nu.14:12-20

Scriptures that show disobedience, obedience, repentance, prayer etc. can and has changed Gods mind concerning things He has said He would do.

Even in the very beginning, in Gods dealing with man, we see were God changed His mind because of man’s disobedience. God told Adam that he could freely eat of every tree in the garden except one. However, when Adam disobeyed God the garden became off limits to Adam and Adam could no longer freely eat from the trees in it.

Even Jesus did not believe God’s will was always static, as He prayer that the cup be removed from Him. We know that the cup was not removed from Him, however that Jesus prayed that it be removed shows Jesus believed prayer can change Gods mind.

.
If God foreknowledge is always static, why does God say that when Israel sent their children into the fires of Moloch that doing this had NEVER ENTERED INTO HIS MIND?
Jeremiah 19:5
5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
*
If God knows all thing’s man will do before man sets their hearts on doing them, then surely God would have foreknown that Israel would send their children into the fires of Moloch. Yet He says this never entered into His mind.
*
*
Gods foreknowledge of an event does NOT have to be 1 day (or something that happens tomorrow), 100 years or a 1000 years before the event happens. Gods Foreknowledge can be something that He sees 30 seconds before the event takes place and it would still be foreknowledge.
*
I am only going to give one set of scriptures (you know the other ones I have used) to show forth this principle.
Remember the other scriptures I gave as you read this.
*
*
And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me
*
*
Gods foreknowledge and Gods all-knowing aspect work hand in hand although they are different aspects.
*
Gods foreknowledge of what man will do any given moment comes from His presence of always being with man. By always being with man, He searches out the intent of man’s heart and knows what man will do before man does it.
*
It is not the type of foreknowledge that knows 1 day in the future (as tomorrows breakfast), but rather the foreknowledge that takes place just before (30 seconds) before the event actually takes place.
*
Back to the scriptures I just gave.
*
What those scriptures show is that God knew just before (30 second)(30 seconds is just an example it could have been a minute) Abe withheld nothing from him. This can be seen in that God stopped Abe BEFORE Abe actually killed his son.
*
Thus Gods foreknowledge and His all-knowing aspect work wonderfully together.

I'm not going to read all of that; I think I got the gist of it from the first few sentences. I pretty much agree.

I asked if you could support it because you seemed to be saying the opposite.

 

[Shasta]

Lighthouse here is a explanation I gave to some others on another board who claimed Gods foreknowledge is static.

God’s foreknowledge
For the purpose of this article when I speak of Gods foreknowledge as being static, I am referring to the idea that Gods foreknowledge is understood as being BEFORE the creation of the world.

God’s foreknowledge of things is not always static.

When God is speaking of the things He will do, the things He plans and carries out Gods foreknowledge is static.

However, when God is speaking concerning the freewill of man Gods foreknowledge is not static.

We need to learn to rightly divide the scriptures.

Let’s look at Gods static foreknowledge.
Isaiah 46:10
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

This scripture is always used to show that Gods foreknowledge is static; however, it is used to show that Gods foreknowledge is ALWAYS static. But is that really what it shows? Or does it show that God’s foreknowledge is static because it is speaking of the things God will do?


Let’s look at the rest of those scriptures.
Isaiah 46:10-13
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
*
These are all things God will do; they have NOTHING to do with what man will do.
Gods static foreknowledge of what He will do is our assurance.

However, Gods foreknowledge is not always static, when man is concerned God foreknowledge is dependent on the freewill of man.

Let’s see if this is also true.

2Kings 20
Hezekiah was sick unto death, and God sent Isaiah to him to tell him to put his house in order for he would die of his sickness. Hezekiah obviously did not believe Gods prophesy concerning him was static as he prayed to God concerning his death. God heard his prayer and sent Isaiah back with a different prophecy. I will add 15 years to your life.

Now if Gods foreknowledge is always static why did Hezekiah not die from his sickness as God said he would? If God foreknew Hezekiah would pray and that He would add 15 years to Hezekiah’s life was it not a lie God told Hezekiah when He told him he would die?

Here we see that prayer can change Gods mind, and if God can change His mind is it not obvious that His foreknowledge is not always static?

Here are a couple more scriptures that show prayer can change Gods mind about things He has said He would do.
Ex.32:9-14
Nu.14:12-20

Scriptures that show disobedience, obedience, repentance, prayer etc. can and has changed Gods mind concerning things He has said He would do.

Even in the very beginning, in Gods dealing with man, we see were God changed His mind because of man’s disobedience. God told Adam that he could freely eat of every tree in the garden except one. However, when Adam disobeyed God the garden became off limits to Adam and Adam could no longer freely eat from the trees in it.

Even Jesus did not believe God’s will was always static, as He prayer that the cup be removed from Him. We know that the cup was not removed from Him, however that Jesus prayed that it be removed shows Jesus believed prayer can change Gods mind.

.
If God foreknowledge is always static, why does God say that when Israel sent their children into the fires of Moloch that doing this had NEVER ENTERED INTO HIS MIND?
Jeremiah 19:5
5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
*
If God knows all thing’s man will do before man sets their hearts on doing them, then surely God would have foreknown that Israel would send their children into the fires of Moloch. Yet He says this never entered into His mind.
*
*
Gods foreknowledge of an event does NOT have to be 1 day (or something that happens tomorrow), 100 years or a 1000 years before the event happens. Gods Foreknowledge can be something that He sees 30 seconds before the event takes place and it would still be foreknowledge.
*
I am only going to give one set of scriptures (you know the other ones I have used) to show forth this principle.
Remember the other scriptures I gave as you read this.
*
*
And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me
*
*
Gods foreknowledge and Gods all-knowing aspect work hand in hand although they are different aspects.
*
Gods foreknowledge of what man will do any given moment comes from His presence of always being with man. By always being with man, He searches out the intent of man’s heart and knows what man will do before man does it.
*
It is not the type of foreknowledge that knows 1 day in the future (as tomorrows breakfast), but rather the foreknowledge that takes place just before (30 seconds) before the event actually takes place.
*
Back to the scriptures I just gave.
*
What those scriptures show is that God knew just before (30 second)(30 seconds is just an example it could have been a minute) Abe withheld nothing from him. This can be seen in that God stopped Abe BEFORE Abe actually killed his son.
*
Thus Gods foreknowledge and His all-knowing aspect work wonderfully together.

You have made a laudable attempt to reconcile true non-temporal foreknowledge with freewill.

I have a question though. Are you saying that God has two types of foreknowledge one non-temporal and the other temporal?

 

[Pneuma]

You have made a laudable attempt to reconcile true non-temporal foreknowledge with freewill.

I have a question though. Are you saying that God has two types of foreknowledge one non-temporal and the other temporal?

I don't know about non-temporal or temporal, the way I see it is God knows the beginning and the end and the end from the beginning. In other words God know Himself (God is the beginning and the end the alpha and omega). God know what He will do regardless of the will of man.

Example: scripture proclaims the last enemy that will be destroyed is death. If the future is open in all aspects this scripture that states this last enemy that is destroyed may not happen. However if God knows what He will bring to pass regardless of mans freewill, which I believe He does, this scripture is assured to come to pass. God will simply work things out so that the outcome is assured. Mans freewill cannot stop God from the completion of what He proclaimed. God is the greatest chess player that ever was, He cannot be defeated in any aspect of His promises, man might move this way or that way, but God always has a counter move that fulfills His purpose. God knows the game so well (the beginning and the end) that the end of the game is assured.


All that happens within the game is open to the movement of men, but the outcome is assured because God know the end of the game is assured because no one has ever or can ever beat Him. Therefore all that God will do in the END is assured to come to pass

 

[Shasta]

Lighthouse;3226688]There has to be more than one occasion, doesn't there?

Well, not if the idea does not allow for exceptions. An open future that cannot be absolutely known can be disproved by examples show that God knows absolutely what decisions a person will make. If He could know that then He would not be waiting in suspense for the "surprises" men's choices may bring.

If it can be shown that God absolutely knows the future, definitively, then the OV is shown to be false.

This doesn't work. No one can change God's mind on the date except God, especially since He is the only One who knows. Thus it is possible for Him to know specifically without the OV being false. Since the OV doesn't say God can't know any future event for certain.

The whole idea of an "open future" means that things may turn out a differently than anticipated. The "openness" of the future is primarily due to the free choices of men. Free will is the wild card that makes many things uncertain. Even God Himself cannot be certain what men will decide. That is not my theology it is that of Open Theism.

God can unilaterally decide to intervene but whether He does and How He does is largely contingent upon the choices of free agents. Because of this then the outcomes cannot be absolutely stated - not even by God.

Jesus said "that day and hour" would be preceded by a chain of events. So sure was God of these events that Jesus said they could be taken as signs. One of these, "the falling away," is directly conditioned on the choices people will make, not just people but believers. No one forces people to fall away. An open future allows for the real possibility that men might repent. If that happened the outcome would be very different. God said Nineveh would be destroyed. It was not because they repented.

What makes you think there are that many possibilities?

Hint: There aren't

.

Every moment presents us with a number of different options any one of which we are free to choose. Every option has its own set of outcomes and offers a number of other options. Each choice reconfigures the future. An visual example can be represented in a flow chart. Event 1 presents an individual with, lets say, five options (there are many more). When one is chosen then there is an outcome which presents the person with (say) five more options and so on. You can see how many possible outcomes are generated in a very short time.

If God is unable to predict with certainty any single option a person will choose in a moment of time then He can only calculate possibilities and probabilities. The fact that "God knows everything" cannot simplify this because, in Open Theism, God's knowledge is limited to the here and now and to what MIGHT be. Saying that God is intelligent is irrelevant since, according to Open Theism theology there are many things He cannot and does not know.

Not at all what I believe. God cannot foreknow what we will do if it isn't already determined by something.

The whole point of formulating the doctrine of an "Open Future" was to counter the whole notion that things can be determined. The idea that God can foreknow what we will do if He pre-determined something to happen, is a very Calvinistic way of looking at it.

Exactly.[/QUOTE]

 

[Shasta]

I've heard the opinion of this being a statement revealing that the Father will know when the time is right, based upon certain requirements reaching fulfillment. So there is a day and an hour, except that day and hour is yet to be determined, and will be by the Father alone when the time is right. Which could possibly be akin to when He sent Christ; not to deter that the Father planned to send Him, just that He was waiting for the most ample opportunity to introduce Him into history? Of course I can't say this is true, though I can't really find a reason to disagree with this theory either.
​

If God were waiting for the right conditions then He would have no secret to which the Son was not privy. Jesus said that the Father knew the day and hour. He did not say that the Father "will know" the day and hour. He said the Father (already) knew it.

 

[Lighthouse]

Well, not if the idea does not allow for exceptions. An open future that cannot be absolutely known can be disproved by examples show that God knows absolutely what decisions a person will make. If He could know that then He would not be waiting in suspense for the "surprises" men's choices may bring.

Who is arguing that nothing is settled?

But can you show me any example of God knowing what decisions someone will make?

The whole idea of an "open future" means that things may turn out a differently than anticipated. The "openness" of the future is primarily due to the free choices of men. Free will is the wild card that makes many things uncertain. Even God Himself cannot be certain what men will decide. That is not my theology it is that of Open Theism.

So you think God knows what I will decide to eat today?

God can unilaterally decide to intervene but whether He does and How He does is largely contingent upon the choices of free agents. Because of this then the outcomes cannot be absolutely stated - not even by God.

Are you agreeing with the OV, or simply stating it [or at least what you think it is]?

Jesus said "that day and hour" would be preceded by a chain of events. So sure was God of these events that Jesus said they could be taken as signs. One of these, "the falling away," is directly conditioned on the choices people will make, not just people but believers. No one forces people to fall away. An open future allows for the real possibility that men might repent. If that happened the outcome would be very different. God said Nineveh would be destroyed. It was not because they repented.

When did Jesus speak of the "falling away"?

Every moment presents us with a number of different options any one of which we are free to choose. Every option has its own set of outcomes and offers a number of other options. Each choice reconfigures the future. An visual example can be represented in a flow chart. Event 1 presents an individual with, lets say, five options (there are many more). When one is chosen then there is an outcome which presents the person with (say) five more options and so on. You can see how many possible outcomes are generated in a very short time.

And?

If God is unable to predict with certainty any single option a person will choose in a moment of time then He can only calculate possibilities and probabilities. The fact that "God knows everything" cannot simplify this because, in Open Theism, God's knowledge is limited to the here and now and to what MIGHT be. Saying that God is intelligent is irrelevant since, according to Open Theism theology there are many things He cannot and does not know.

And yet He knows what He will certainly do.

The whole point of formulating the doctrine of an "Open Future" was to counter the whole notion that things can be determined. The idea that God can foreknow what we will do if He pre-determined something to happen, is a very Calvinistic way of looking at it.

I don't know a single OV proponent who thinks nothing is ever predestined; simply that not all things are.

 

[surrender]

The certainty of what men will do becomes less and less accurate the further into the future such projections are made.

Nothing finite becomes less accurate for an infinite God.

If there is an occasion where God absolutely knows what men will choose to do in the distant future then God has the attribute true foreknowledge.

I don't believe the OV says that God doesn't have "true foreknowledge." God does have perfect foreknowledge--He perfectly knows all things that are knowable. Knowing what men will choose, in general, doesn't mean the future is fixed.

If Open Theism were true even the Father could not know anything so specific as the day and hour.

He could if He was the one who was going to set it. I plan to get my hair cut in the future, but I haven’t made an appointment yet. My son asks my husband, “When is mom getting her hair cut” and my husband replies, “Only your mom knows the day and hour.” That doesn’t mean I’ve already set the day and hour of my hair appointment, it just means that my hair appointment is certain and I’m the only one who sets it.

“Falling away” is a human choice which according to Open Theism God cannot predict; especially that far in advance.

What is “that far” for an infinite God dealing with finite variables?

I suppose it could be argued that God could ensure that the siapostasy would happened around the scheduled event by withdrawing His influence and let the Devil have his way. This is inconsistent with the character of God is good and desires that all men come to repentance.

Sounds exactly what God says He’d do: “For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false (2 Thes. 2:11).

 

[surrender]

The fact that God has to calculate ahead of time what indicates that He is predicting. He can make make contingency plans (Plan A, Plan B, Plan C....) but the fact that there are so many possibilities makes the future HIGHLY uncertain.

Highly uncertain for a not so infinite God. It doesn’t matter how many possibilities exist, there are only a finite number of possibilities. Even a finite master chess player doesn’t have any uncertainty about who will win the match when he’s playing a novice.

What you are describing is very close to traditional doctrine of foreknowledge that the early Church held to. God foreknows but does not necessitate what men will choose. Foreknowledge is not the same thing as predestination.

The Open View and the Exhaustive Foreknowledge View are not at odds with each other on how much God knows. Both views agree that God knows all things knowable. The views have a different perspective on the nature of the future. The EFV believes that the future is “out there” somewhere and that it has already played out in the mind of God. Not that He causes it but that He simply knows it. The OV believes that the future is not “out there” to be known. And so, the future is partly fixed (the parts God chooses to fix) and partly open.

 

[Frank Ernest]

Can you support that position with Scripture?

Mark 13:23 (KJV)

 

[Pneuma]

Mark 13:23 (KJV)

How could Jesus foretell them all things yet not know the day or the hour?

Obviously Jesus fortold them all things He knew.

 

[oldhermit]

I must admit, this concept of open/closed theology is somewhat new to me. I think I am beginning to get a picture for the reasons behind open view theology and the implications that would result from this view. If I misrepresent the idea in any way in future posts, please be kind enought to let me know.

 

[Lighthouse]

Nothing finite becomes less accurate for an infinite God.

What about that which is infinite?

Mark 13:23 (KJV)

Context Frank, context.

Jesus didn't tell them everything; He told them all things related to the subject.

 

[surrender]

What about that which is infinite?

??

 

[Lighthouse]

??

Can that which is infinite become less accurate?

 

[surrender]

Can that which is infinite become less accurate?

No.

 

[godrulz]

I must admit, this concept of open/closed theology is somewhat new to me. I think I am beginning to get a picture for the reasons behind open view theology and the implications that would result from this view. If I misrepresent the idea in any way in future posts, please be kind enought to let me know.

www.opentheism.info

The main players are Calvinism, Arminianism, Open Theism, Molinism (and Process Thought, less so).

Open Theism correctly recognizes the two motifs in Scripture: some of the future is settled/foreknown, while other aspects are unsettled/known as possible vs certain in advance.

 

[2COR12:9]

If God were waiting for the right conditions then He would have no secret to which the Son was not privy. Jesus said that the Father knew the day and hour. He did not say that the Father "will know" the day and hour. He said the Father (already) knew it.

I understand your interpretation of Mark 13:32 & Matthew 24:36 for it is the view of the majority; but again I'm saying it does not deviate from the fact of God knowing the time, for when the time comes He will know based on whatever is entailed within His will for it to be the time, it doesn't change anything if Christ regards the conditions or seasons or requirements of that time, for even the believer is called to have wisdom and perceive such things. I can not differentiate between God having foreknowledge of said time when He will send Christ again, and God knowing now is the time to send Christ. It's all based on how you read it. An analogy is a wife asking her husband, when he will get a raise at work; the husband responds with, only my boss knows the day and the hour. Meaning the boss didn't exact a certain time and date, but will know when the time is right based on an assessment of the productivity of his employee, and will make the decision to up his pay. Either way the centrality of each view is based on the premise God knows the right time, whether He foreknew when He chose the right time to be, or He ordained when it would come about, or He decided after accessing the state of everything as being the right time; it's more just an argument of words, rather then any real dispute regarding His omniscience or sovereignty.​

 

[2COR12:9]

I must admit, this concept of open/closed theology is somewhat new to me. I think I am beginning to get a picture for the reasons behind open view theology and the implications that would result from this view. If I misrepresent the idea in any way in future posts, please be kind enought to let me know.

I wouldn't stress too much on stepping on any toes, for it is a fairly new view and is still open for expansion and consideration. I believe as long as you're within the realm of the future being open that would suffice; some will lean towards a less flattering depiction of God and others a more enhanced perception of His attributes based upon which side they stand within this premise. I lean towards the latter. I posted some vids of one man's views I regard as similar to mine, if you're seeking further enlightenment on the subject. Here's the link. Peace.​

 

[Shasta]

I understand your interpretation of Mark 13:32 & Matthew 24:36 for it is the view of the majority; but again I'm saying it does not deviate from the fact of God knowing the time, for when the time comes He will know based on whatever is entailed within His will for it to be the time, it doesn't change anything if Christ regards the conditions or seasons or requirements of that time, for even the believer is called to have wisdom and perceive such things. I can not differentiate between God having foreknowledge of said time when He will send Christ again, and God knowing now is the time to send Christ. It's all based on how you read it. An analogy is a wife asking her husband, when he will get a raise at work; the husband responds with, only my boss knows the day and the hour. Meaning the boss didn't exact a certain time and date, but will know when the time is right based on an assessment of the productivity of his employee, and will make the decision to up his pay. Either way the centrality of each view is based on the premise God knows the right time, whether He foreknew when He chose the right time to be, or He ordained when it would come about, or He decided after accessing the state of everything as being the right time; it's more just an argument of words, rather then any real dispute regarding His omniscience or sovereignty.​

The idea that "He WILL know" (at some point in the future) is not suggested in the verse. The word "know" is not conjugated in the future tense but in the perfect tense which indicates a PAST action that has been completed. Moreover it is about seeing and perceiving rather that the "experience learning" associated with the other word for know "ginosko" When Jesus was speaking of His coming He was saying the father already knew it and the matter was closed. This is just grammar,

Again the "sense" of the verse is that the Father had "a (specific) secret" not that He would at some undermined time in the future make a judgment call.