Interplanner
Well-known member
First, for those of confused about the NT, that would be the accounts and letters of the apostles; ie, the collection. The arrival of the new covenant of forgiveness is within that collection, but the NT covers a few more things than does the topic of the new covenant.
2nd, it is extremely important that the NT have the final say on what the OT was saying. You will otherwise end up with two sets of train tracks or a wreck.
The places that use v5 'The Lord is coming with all his holy ones...'
Mt 25:31
I Th 3:13
2 Th 1:17
Jd 14
It is often just expression of the 'holy ones' that gets used by the NT passage. But since Jude is referring all the way back to the days and statements of Enoch, the coming in judgement has been a well known topic for all mankind for quite a while! No wonder the coming of Christ was called the end of time, the end of the ages, etc.
In the 2 Th 1 passage , the 'parousia' (coming) is also a time of relief from the current persecution. Obviously this is the 2nd time (2nd letter) mentioning it as coming quite soon to their relief. If Paul mentioned it soon in his 2nd letter again, is there any question that these things were expected quite soon in terms of the NT generation? Not at all. I doubt he would say so to people being hammered for their faith, if there wasn't a reason to expect it. Adjust your timeframes. They are not right without this view.
The event expected from Zech 14:5 was not just 'about Israel.' It was the final judgement of the world, though expressed in ways the most familiar to Israel. Uses of vs 7-11 are found sprinkled through the NHNE passage of Rev 21, 22, (there will be no night, twice), which is the location of the new Jerusalem; it never 'lands' on this one. This is why Heb 2:5 says that the subject of the great salvation (not just forgiveness but the NHNE) was 'the world to come about which we are speaking' in the early chapters of Hebrews, not a restored Israel as they knew it, that was about to be toast. Zech 14 is about the new.
D'ist-speak has all these points backward, and says this is all a mess. That is my every day experience with D'ism. They are always "right" and whenever the details of Scripture are presented, it's a mess. Guess who claims they are exclusively 'Bible-based'? "Just read the book" they say.
while the judgement on Israel was delivered in the DofJ, the worldwide final judgement did not take place. That's a God question; only the Father knows the time.
2nd, it is extremely important that the NT have the final say on what the OT was saying. You will otherwise end up with two sets of train tracks or a wreck.
The places that use v5 'The Lord is coming with all his holy ones...'
Mt 25:31
I Th 3:13
2 Th 1:17
Jd 14
It is often just expression of the 'holy ones' that gets used by the NT passage. But since Jude is referring all the way back to the days and statements of Enoch, the coming in judgement has been a well known topic for all mankind for quite a while! No wonder the coming of Christ was called the end of time, the end of the ages, etc.
In the 2 Th 1 passage , the 'parousia' (coming) is also a time of relief from the current persecution. Obviously this is the 2nd time (2nd letter) mentioning it as coming quite soon to their relief. If Paul mentioned it soon in his 2nd letter again, is there any question that these things were expected quite soon in terms of the NT generation? Not at all. I doubt he would say so to people being hammered for their faith, if there wasn't a reason to expect it. Adjust your timeframes. They are not right without this view.
The event expected from Zech 14:5 was not just 'about Israel.' It was the final judgement of the world, though expressed in ways the most familiar to Israel. Uses of vs 7-11 are found sprinkled through the NHNE passage of Rev 21, 22, (there will be no night, twice), which is the location of the new Jerusalem; it never 'lands' on this one. This is why Heb 2:5 says that the subject of the great salvation (not just forgiveness but the NHNE) was 'the world to come about which we are speaking' in the early chapters of Hebrews, not a restored Israel as they knew it, that was about to be toast. Zech 14 is about the new.
D'ist-speak has all these points backward, and says this is all a mess. That is my every day experience with D'ism. They are always "right" and whenever the details of Scripture are presented, it's a mess. Guess who claims they are exclusively 'Bible-based'? "Just read the book" they say.
while the judgement on Israel was delivered in the DofJ, the worldwide final judgement did not take place. That's a God question; only the Father knows the time.
