ECT The NT theology core

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Danoh

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May as well face the facts:

1. Mystery of Christ- that Christ was dying for the sins of Israel, and Gentiles associated with Israel. This mystery was hidden in the scriptures of the prophets.

2. Mystery of the Gospel- that Christ died for all men, to be testified in due time, including Gentiles never associated with Israel whatsoever. This mystery was not hidden in the prophets, but was hidden in God.


Put down your commentaries, and pick up a KJB, and believe what you read.

In your case, believe what you read into your KJB :chuckle:

So much for all those passages in your KJB about the importance of the proper understanding of a thing, first - that is only then believed in.

1 Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

And...

Proverbs 20:5 Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water; but a man of understanding will draw it out.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Ro 11:1-10, which includes 11:5, is speaking exclusively of ethnic Israel believing and unbelieving.

One can't justifiably reach out and grab the later parts of Ro 11 or even Eph 2 and cram it into Ro 11:1-10 without some sort of dialectic monkey business.





He had to address DNA Israel as such, but by the end of the chapter (the trees) he's right back on his usual: it exists by faith.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Who decides that?

What scriptures do you and others cite that use the word 'remnant' to refer to believers in the church today?





The theme is in Rom 9-11 and in Heb 10-13. Being born and raised in Judaism (the situation in which most of the NT is written) he has to address his countrymen, but it never is just about those who are believers from among Israel. It returns to an even larger group, all who believe on Christ, and by doing so are Abraham's seed, being in the Seed. Rom 4, 9 and Gal 3 are the important locations on that question of who Abraham's Seed is.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
No, I don't think D'ism is the armor of God, I was just saying that because of the armor reference. You can't prove D'ism wrong, you never could.





That would be because of the exceptions you make in the area of proof. You won't accept what I say about RT in Gal 3:17 because it would conflict with D'ism, which you have decided is true before we get started. You don't know how to unmake your thinking and be objective.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
How about?

Act 13:1* Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up withHerod the tetrarch, and Saul.*

Do you think that there was anything that GOD revealed to these prophets that was not previously revealed in the OT?


How about?

Act 26:16* But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;


How about?

Gal 1:12* For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ



How about?


Eph 3:3* How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words


How about?

2Co 12:1* It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.*
Co 12:7* And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.


Do you really believe that all these revelations to Paul from the ascended Lord are things that Paul could have just as well learned from the twelve or by reading the OT?





All the things he said were mystery were not mystery once understood as being true 'in the Gospel' (Eph 3:6) or 'in Christ.' That is what God revealed to him, and he says God revealed it to others as well. But it was not taught in the the synagogues or in his Judaistic training.

this is why it is such a mistake to go with D'ism; it basically reads everything the way Judaism did, and you can hear the deep dissappointment in them about there not being another time or period when Israel will be in its land, etc, because they don't read things as true in Christ, in the resurrection, in the Gospel. They don't even know how to talk about it--the list of 4 things of this OP is like another language to them.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
I don't either.
Paul was a prophet.
Paul's letters are 'prophetic writings'.




Yep, he did, people like himself.




Hmm, that's too bad.
Paul did.

Eph 1:22* And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,*
Eph 1:23* Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.*
Col 1:18* And he is the head of the body, the church:




What it says, man!




There's enough in the prophets to cover it more than adequately.

There are some references in the NT writings that pertain to the restoration of Israel under Messiah, but you either ignore them or have assigned them to allegory.





'More than enough' yet you have never asked yourself: why is nothing said in the NT? Even in tight, life-at-risk situations, they say nothing! For ex., Paul in Acts 26! He says everything Israel seeks to happen is found in the resurrection of Christ! Which is the same thing ch 13's sermon said.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
This is simple:
1, God was in Christ resolving man's debt
2, the resurrection occurred because God approved of his travail
3, the resurrection was the enthronement foreseen by David, because how can he (the Lord) be his son in an ordinary sense?
4, the resurrection was the fulfillment of what God had promised the fathers as a blessing to the nations, since the land and kingdom had already served their purpose in their generations.

This is complicated: Christ spoke about both 70 AD and the tribulation in Mt 24 at the same time! Why talk twice when you can say it once in code!

Or, you are a liar if you can't find the land restoration promise in the NT. That is, you make God a liar.

Yet the very purpose of Acts 13's statement on the resurrection is to show Israel that God supplied everything that was coming in it, in the form of the mission to the nations. Everything God does now is to honor and magnify the Son. "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again"--throughout the world. It shows God is totally, utterly true.
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
That would be because of the exceptions you make in the area of proof. You won't accept what I say about RT in Gal 3:17 because it would conflict with D'ism, which you have decided is true before we get started. You don't know how to unmake your thinking and be objective.
I don't know what you say about Gal 3:17
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
It is the piece of background about Paul and Judaism that is not acknowledged by D'ism. Intertestament Judaism had switched the Promise out for the Law. the Law was how it would bless the nations, and it tried to make missionaries who spread that. All ceremonies, rituals, visits to the temple, etc.

Gal 3:17 tells us this. This act voided and replaced the Promise which was in Christ. It was in Christ that the nations would be blessed apart from law. It was in Christ that Gentiles would receive anything Israel was to receive--the Spirit and the mission of the Gospel, not the land or the ongoing worship system. This act by Judaism had to be undone. Paul's career work was to undo it. Because it blocked the mission.

To go back to all those things is to void and displace them with the Law all over again. That is what D'ism is doing. To 'bury' this issue there is this fuss about Replacement Theology RT --oh how horrible, they say, that people like me have replaced the land promise or the restoration promise. Very clever of them to create an RT right at the juncture where there already was one that Paul was trying to correct!

Why would they create this? Because of Chafer's industry: 'the Bible is a conflicting set of messages unless you believe what we teach in D'ism.' Its 2P2P 'solves' a mess that did not exist, not if we actually stick with Paul.
 

Danoh

New member
It is the piece of background about Paul and Judaism that is not acknowledged by D'ism. Intertestament Judaism had switched the Promise out for the Law. the Law was how it would bless the nations, and it tried to make missionaries who spread that. All ceremonies, rituals, visits to the temple, etc.

Gal 3:17 tells us this. This act voided and replaced the Promise which was in Christ. It was in Christ that the nations would be blessed apart from law. It was in Christ that Gentiles would receive anything Israel was to receive--the Spirit and the mission of the Gospel, not the land or the ongoing worship system. This act by Judaism had to be undone. Paul's career work was to undo it. Because it blocked the mission.

To go back to all those things is to void and displace them with the Law all over again. That is what D'ism is doing. To 'bury' this issue there is this fuss about Replacement Theology RT --oh how horrible, they say, that people like me have replaced the land promise or the restoration promise. Very clever of them to create an RT right at the juncture where there already was one that Paul was trying to correct!

Why would they create this? Because of Chafer's industry: 'the Bible is a conflicting set of messages unless you believe what we teach in D'ism.' Its 2P2P 'solves' a mess that did not exist, not if we actually stick with Paul.

Nonsense.

For the Twelve had been endued with the Spirit's power from on High they were told would more than enable them to carry out their mission.

Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Yours is your usual 70AD'st's erroneous Premise, to start with.

Actual fact?

Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. 3:7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. 3:8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God. 3:9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God: 3:10 And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him.

Acts 4:6 And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 4:7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this? 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

4:23 And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them.

4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

The Apostle Paul was NOT needed for ANY of that - AT ALL.

YOU CONTINUE both to MISUNDERSTAND, as as a result, to MISREPRESENT his UNIQUE ministry.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Nevertheless, Romans 5:8.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Ezekiel 36
36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.


Ezekiel 37
37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
 

Danoh

New member
Ezekiel 36
36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.


Ezekiel 37
37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Yep :thumb:
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Ezekiel 36
36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.


Ezekiel 37
37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

:idunno:
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
The best and most direct way to the apostle's core doctrines is to ignore the ignorant starting point of Chafer 100 years ago: that the Christian public needs him/D'ism to 'make sense' of the Bible.

Wow are things clear now that that is taken care of! Now all you have to do is find the really major themes of the apostles, and it helps if they are in official transcripts of messages or hearings! Like Acts 2:30-31 and Acts 13 and 26.

So I'm sorry if selecting 2 Cor 5's 'God was in Christ' was too subjective; it just seems to me to be the anchor of ch 5, where 'kata sarka' turns into true seeing in Christ. And I'm sorry if Rom 3:26 seemed to be ruled out; that was not my intention.

When I have suggested that you truly get inside the mind of the reader, I mean that you read these selections out loud, even with the help of an actor who is trained to see emotional spikes. There's one in our area who recites Phillippians from memory and it is quite an amazing production. To hear someone who's voice is for real instead of monotone, let alone words on a page. The passage must become alive to you; you must be able to know it even if expressed in several variations.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
The best and most direct way to the apostle's core doctrines is to ignore the ignorant starting point of Chafer 100 years ago: that the Christian public needs him/D'ism to 'make sense' of the Bible.

Wow are things clear now that that is taken care of! Now all you have to do is find the really major themes of the apostles, and it helps if they are in official transcripts of messages or hearings! Like Acts 2:30-31 and Acts 13 and 26.

So I'm sorry if selecting 2 Cor 5's 'God was in Christ' was too subjective; it just seems to me to be the anchor of ch 5, where 'kata sarka' turns into true seeing in Christ. And I'm sorry if Rom 3:26 seemed to be ruled out; that was not my intention.

When I have suggested that you truly get inside the mind of the reader, I mean that you read these selections out loud, even with the help of an actor who is trained to see emotional spikes. There's one in our area who recites Phillippians from memory and it is quite an amazing production. To hear someone who's voice is for real instead of monotone, let alone words on a page. The passage must become alive to you; you must be able to know it even if expressed in several variations.

All made up.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
There is now the Talking Bible, too, read by several actors including Sorbo, Rhyss, etc. Dim the lights, shut off the phone and try an hour at a time. It will cure D'ism.
 
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