The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[freelight]

taking 'myths' back a step or two......

taking 'myths' back a step or two......

~*~*~


What you might have a more difficult time proving is that Jesus needed to die for anyone period.

What is comes down to is an 'interpretation' of various writings in the NT which are then accepted as a 'belief'.



pj

 

[quip]

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

To fill all the many churches with sheep! :cow::duh:..........:greedy:

 

[beloved57]

No, but you interpret it wrong (eisegesis) vs exegesis. World is all unregenerate men, not the elite elect (TULIP).

We will see at the Judgment whose wrong, in the mean time deal with the posts . Start with 485 !

 

[godrulz]

We will see at the Judgment whose wrong, in the mean time deal with the posts . Start with 485 !

We have the Word, Spirit, and a brain now. It is safe to say that your hyper-Calvinism view is wrong/unbiblical because it impugns the character of God and does not stand up to sound exegesis in context.atrol:

 

[beloved57]

We have the Word, Spirit, and a brain now. It is safe to say that your hyper-Calvinism view is wrong/unbiblical because it impugns the character of God and does not stand up to sound exegesis in context.atrol:

We will see at the Judgment whose wrong, in the mean time deal with the posts . Start with 485 !

 

[Rightglory]

godrulz


It is actually precisely what it says, the world, cosmos. Christ not just loved the world, but reconciled the world II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20, which is why we can call Him Savior of the world, John 4:42, I John 4:14.

 

[beloved57]

godrulz


It is actually precisely what it says, the world, cosmos. Christ not just loved the world, but reconciled the world II Cor 5:18-19, Col 1:20, which is why we can call Him Savior of the world, John 4:42, I John 4:14.

If the world meant all without exception in 2 Cor 5:19, then that means the whole world without exception shall be saved by Christ's Life.

Because those who were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, while they were enemies/unbelievers, the promise is that they shall be saved by His Life. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The reconciled here are the same in 2 Cor 5:19. So you are teaching the false doctrine of universalism, for all without exception shall not be saved by Christ's Life.

 

[ttruscott]

Um, why would the devil even need to lie if it's only the predestined 'chosen' who are going to be saved anyway? What difference would that make if it's already a 'done deal' and irrevocable? So what, the devil decides to invent a whole gamut of 'heresies' that wouldn't alter anything regardless? :squint:

Um, ya, that makes sense......

...

As the parable of the good seed and the weeds teaches us, the good seed, that is, the people of the kingdom sown into the world by the Son of Man, ie, the sinful elect, must live with the reprobate tares, the people of the evil one sown into this world by the devil, that is, the non-elect, until the time of the harvest. Their judgment to be burned is postponed until the time of the harvest. Seeds are harvested when they are mature and maturity in spiritual terms means holiness.

So the tares are gathered to be burnt when the sinful elect finally all become holy...

Well what better set up for them to keep the judgment postponed a whole lot longer by keeping the sinful elect addicted to their sins by infiltrating the churches and influencing satanic doctrines and enticing the elect into the "sins of the city" to paraphrase another parable.

But we know it won't work since our lives are in the hand of
GOD and under HIS decrees of predestinated times and methods of our redemption and sanctification and all suffering works to our good. The postponement and the end of the postponement is set by GOD, not the devil, and he can sow his evil children into human form in the earth all he wants, he will not extend his freedom one second past the time set by GOD for the last sinful elect to be brought to holiness and the gathering to heaven and hell begins.

Peace, Ted

 

[beloved57]

tt

So the tares are gathered to be burnt when the sinful elect finally all become holy...

The sinful elect are always Holy in the sight of God, because He always viewed them in and one with His Holy Son !

The tares are gasthered and burned when their iniquity is full, and at that time all the Holy Elect will have completed their good work for the Glory of God amongst men and the time of their reward has come. Rev 11:15-18

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[chrysostom]

Jesus did die for all of us

 

[Rightglory]

beloved57,

If the world meant all without exception in 2 Cor 5:19, then that means the whole world without exception shall be saved by Christ's Life.

No, it does not mean that at all. It means Christ reversed the fall. The fall was death. Gen 3:19, Rom 5:12, Heb 2:14-17.

The solution to the fall was that Christ brought life to the world and atoned for the sin of the world. There are no exceptions, or exclusions respective of Christ's life, death, and resurrection. This is what Rom 5:18, Rom 11:32, Rom 3:23-25, John 6:39, I Cor 15:12-22 all state clearly and emphatically.

Christ did not save individuals from the Cross.

Because those who were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, while they were enemies/unbelievers, the promise is that they shall be saved by His Life. Rom 5:10

NO, it does not say that either.

What it says is that those who were reconciled it then makes a comparison. Those so saved shall be saved through His life. Because Christ lives, we can now be joined to Him which we do by faith. Individuals are saved through faith, not the Cross. The Cross makes it all possible because the fall, that which Adam did, condemned the world to death, so that any union with God for which we were created, is precluded.

The reconciled here are the same in 2 Cor 5:19. So you are teaching the false doctrine of universalism, for all without exception shall not be saved by Christ's Life.

YOur statement is made in ignorance. Scripture is teaching the Incarnation of Christ. Christ becoming man, took on our human nature so that by His death that mortal nature could be raised to life. Man now has an eternal existance again because of Christ's resurrection. It is by virtue of His resurrection that we can believe in the resurrection of the dead. Rev 20:11-13, Acts 24:15.


Give me any text in scripture that says Christ did NOT die for sinners and the ungodly, Rom 5:6,8. Show any text that overturns Col 1:20, or II Cor 5:18-19? Give any theological argument that refutes the Incarnation of Christ and its salvfic content and purpose.

 

[beloved57]

He died for the Seed of Abraham !

He died for the Seed of Abraham !

Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The Lord Jesus Christ died as Our High Priest, that is what the scripture teaches.

Vs 17 above informs us of that. Lets look at some more scripture. Heb 3:1

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Notice here that Christ Jesus, the same one as here Phil 2:5

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:


2 Tim 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Is High Priest of our profession !

Heb 5:1

For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

Now God had set guidelines for the High Priest. He must take on the Nature and be connected or associated to the race He has their welfare at heart.

He must be taken or selected out of that People. Ps 89:19

Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.

So He took on the Seed of Abraham Heb 2:16. It also reads :

16 For verily not to angels doth he give help, but he giveth help to the seed of Abraham.

16 For, as we all know, He [Christ] did not take hold of angels [the fallen angels, to give them a helping and delivering hand], but He did take hold of [the fallen] descendants of Abraham [to reach out to them a helping and delivering hand].

16 Of course, he isn’t trying to help angels, but rather he’s helping Abraham’s descendants.

16 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.

You see, the Seed of Abraham has never represented all races of people without exception, but only a particular people, a Chosen People.

Isa 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, JJacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

The word friend here is the hebrew word 'ahab :

to love

a) (Qal)

1) human love for another, includes family, and sexual

2) human appetite for objects such as food, drink, sleep, wisdom

3) human love for or to God

4) act of being a friend

a) lover (participle)

b) friend (participle)

5) God's love toward man

a) to individual men

b) to people Israel

c) to righteousness

The Chosen Seed of Abraham are the ones God so Loved Jn 3:16 !



In fact, Jesus had this very relation in mind when He said this Jn 15:13

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

So when Christ came to die for sin, according to the rules of an High Priest, He must come and Identify with the ones He was going to help by His Sacrifice.

So Heb 2:17 further confirms that He was to make reconciliation/ propitiation for the sins of the People, not everyone without exception.

Now interestingly enough, the word reconciliation is the greek word hilaskomai[verb] and means:

to render one's self, to appease, conciliate to one's self

a) to become propitious, be placated or appeased

b) to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful

2) to expiate, make propitiation for

Again, not for everyone without exception, as the false teachers tell us, but for the Seed of Abraham, or the People or His Brethren[not according to the flesh]

So Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole Seed of Abraham 1 Jn 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The word here is the same as that in Heb 2:17 but only in the Noun form. Its hilasmos:

) an appeasing, propitiating

2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

Now is 1 Jn 2:2 saying anything different as to who the subjects are of this propitiation ? Heb 2:16-17 makes it abundantly clear that its for the sins of the People

The greek here is specific in that it reads Christ's sacrifice is τὰς ἁμαρτίας τοῦ λαοῦ:

Its for the sins of the people. The definite article makes it plain whose sins it was Christ offered Himself for. So 1 Cor 15:3 " our sins" can not mean all people without exception, but it can only mean the sins of the people !

So why does John write for the sins of the whole world here in 1 Jn 2:2 if in fact it means only the Seed of Abraham , a specific chosen race ? Its very simple, because the Seed of Abraham was never confined to only one race of people as in the ethnic jews, which race John was part of along with his readers he wrote to here in 1 Jn, but it [The Seed of Abraham] did include men and women of all nations, spanding the whole World. God made that clear to Abraham here Gen 17:5

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

God here is not meaning Abraham's mere physical descendants , for they comprised only one single nation, but God means Abraham's Spiritual descendants of Faith, comprised of all Nations. Remember God said to Abraham Gen 12:3

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Thats what the whole World means in 1 Jn 2:2. It means His Seed of all the families of the Earth, but nevertheless, its still only Abraham's Seed, a Chosen Seed.

All Believers in Christ, People of Faith[Jew or Gentile], are Abraham's Seed the Chosen People Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And that is the Seed He came to help Heb 2:16-17

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.


This cannot be refuted !

 

[bybee]

Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:11,15

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Eph 5:25

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:8

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

Ah, but He did die for all of us! Through His death salvific grace was made available to all persons.
The more germane question is "What does each individual do with that sacrifice?"

 

[beloved57]

bybee

Ah, but He did die for all of us!

Sure, all the Sheep. And everyone are not of His Sheep. Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Now go back and address the points of the post you just quoted of mine, then evaded them !

 

[Ben Masada]

Jesus did die for all of us

Why, because you have said so? I prefer the testimony of Prophet Jeremiah who said that no one is supposed to die for another and that every one must die for his own sins. (Jer.31:30)

 

[Rightglory]

Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The Lord Jesus Christ died as Our High Priest, that is what the scripture teaches.

Vs 17 above informs us of that. Lets look at some more scripture. Heb 3:1

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Notice here that Christ Jesus, the same one as here Phil 2:5

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:


2 Tim 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Is High Priest of our profession !

Heb 5:1

For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

Now God had set guidelines for the High Priest. He must take on the Nature and be connected or associated to the race He has their welfare at heart.

He must be taken or selected out of that People. Ps 89:19

Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.

So He took on the Seed of Abraham Heb 2:16. It also reads :

16 For verily not to angels doth he give help, but he giveth help to the seed of Abraham.

16 For, as we all know, He [Christ] did not take hold of angels [the fallen angels, to give them a helping and delivering hand], but He did take hold of [the fallen] descendants of Abraham [to reach out to them a helping and delivering hand].

16 Of course, he isn’t trying to help angels, but rather he’s helping Abraham’s descendants.

16 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.

You see, the Seed of Abraham has never represented all races of people without exception, but only a particular people, a Chosen People.

Isa 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, JJacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

The word friend here is the hebrew word 'ahab :

to love

a) (Qal)

1) human love for another, includes family, and sexual

2) human appetite for objects such as food, drink, sleep, wisdom

3) human love for or to God

4) act of being a friend

a) lover (participle)

b) friend (participle)

5) God's love toward man

a) to individual men

b) to people Israel

c) to righteousness

The Chosen Seed of Abraham are the ones God so Loved Jn 3:16 !



In fact, Jesus had this very relation in mind when He said this Jn 15:13

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

So when Christ came to die for sin, according to the rules of an High Priest, He must come and Identify with the ones He was going to help by His Sacrifice.

So Heb 2:17 further confirms that He was to make reconciliation/ propitiation for the sins of the People, not everyone without exception.

Now interestingly enough, the word reconciliation is the greek word hilaskomai[verb] and means:

to render one's self, to appease, conciliate to one's self

a) to become propitious, be placated or appeased

b) to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful

2) to expiate, make propitiation for

Again, not for everyone without exception, as the false teachers tell us, but for the Seed of Abraham, or the People or His Brethren[not according to the flesh]

So Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole Seed of Abraham 1 Jn 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The word here is the same as that in Heb 2:17 but only in the Noun form. Its hilasmos:

) an appeasing, propitiating

2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

Now is 1 Jn 2:2 saying anything different as to who the subjects are of this propitiation ? Heb 2:16-17 makes it abundantly clear that its for the sins of the People

The greek here is specific in that it reads Christ's sacrifice is τὰς ἁμαρτίας τοῦ λαοῦ:

Its for the sins of the people. The definite article makes it plain whose sins it was Christ offered Himself for. So 1 Cor 15:3 " our sins" can not mean all people without exception, but it can only mean the sins of the people !

So why does John write for the sins of the whole world here in 1 Jn 2:2 if in fact it means only the Seed of Abraham , a specific chosen race ? Its very simple, because the Seed of Abraham was never confined to only one race of people as in the ethnic jews, which race John was part of along with his readers he wrote to here in 1 Jn, but it [The Seed of Abraham] did include men and women of all nations, spanding the whole World. God made that clear to Abraham here Gen 17:5

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

God here is not meaning Abraham's mere physical descendants , for they comprised only one single nation, but God means Abraham's Spiritual descendants of Faith, comprised of all Nations. Remember God said to Abraham Gen 12:3

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Thats what the whole World means in 1 Jn 2:2. It means His Seed of all the families of the Earth, but nevertheless, its still only Abraham's Seed, a Chosen Seed.

All Believers in Christ, People of Faith[Jew or Gentile], are Abraham's Seed the Chosen People Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And that is the Seed He came to help Heb 2:16-17

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.


This cannot be refuted !

Don't need to refute the texts you quoted, not a single one.

They all clearly support what I have been saying. It is your interpretation that does not follow what scripture is saying. Christ died for mankind, indeed the world. He took upon Himself our fallen mortal human nature. He saved the world from death and sin.

There are no texts in scriptrure that will support your thesis. You have accepted a man's false teaching regarding what scripture means and specifically the Incarnation of Christ.

In my last post I asked for texts that refuted the texts I used and you have not done so.

The fact is there are none. You cannot refute the Truth. The Incarnation of Christ has been held as one of the two hallmark doctrines of Christianity. Trying to refute it is quite foolish. There were four historical Ecumenical Councils that further clarified exactly who Christ is, His natures, His Person, and what He accomplished for us.

None of what you have stated is remotely aligned with scripture and how the Incarnation has always been believed. This cannot be refuted !
Your OP cannot be supported.

 

[beloved57]

rg

Don't need to refute the texts you quoted,

Because you cant. I don't believe you even understand the points made. Rehearse them with me, explain what I posted, you don't have to agree with it.

 

[Rightglory]

rg



Because you cant. I don't believe you even understand the points made. Rehearse them with me, explain what I posted, you don't have to agree with it.

First, why would anyone need to refute something that one agrees with and that scripture upholds.

Secondly, I understand your points quite well which is why I can and have refuted them. The real point is that you have not even addressed the texts I posted and have not shown any evidence that scripture contradicts itself in denying the Incarnation of Christ.

The ball is in your court. You have failed to support your thesis with scriptural, historical, theological facts and have not addressed the texts that refute your opinion.

 

[beloved57]

rg

first, why would anyone need to refute something that one agrees with and that scripture upholds.

You quoted post 501, now rehearse the points with me I made with scripture. Lets see if you follow my train of thought. Can you do that ?

 

[beloved57]

Christ died for a specific people only !

Heb 2:16-17

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Paul stated that Christ died our sins according to scripture 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

In other words, the OT scriptures gives us the pattern of what it means to Identify whose sins Christ died for.

As the High Priest and things pertaining to God, His death was confined to making reconciliation for the sins of the People.

In the greek it reads :

ὅθεν ὤφειλεν κατὰ πάντα τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς ὁμοιωθῆναι, ἵνα ἐλεήμων γένηται καὶ πιστὸς ἀρχιερεὺς τὰ πρὸς τὸν θεόν, εἰς τὸ ἱλάσκεσθαι τὰς ἁμαρτίας τοῦ λαοῦ:

He specifically was to make the reconciliation or propitiation, for the sins, not just for all sin in general, but for the sins of the people or "tou laou" The People, that is a specific people, which is Identified back up in Vs 16 as the Seed of Abraham.

The High Priest in the OT was a Type of the Work of Christ, and on the day of Atonement, the reconciliation or propitiation was restricted to the sins of the People Israel, God's Chosen People, and all other nations of people were excluded. The Atonement was not for the egyptians, the assyrians or any other races of people.

The Office of High Priest was never of service to all people every where, but only to a specific designated people.

Thats why Jesus when praying what is called His High Priestly Prayer in Jn 17, He makes it clear that He was not praying for the world of men in General Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

This Prayer was in conjunction with His impending High Priest offering of Himself Jn 17:19-20

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;


Now who are they that shall also believe on Him through their word ? Why it will be the other Sheep that He has Jn 10:15-16

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

They hear His voice through the Apostles, and all others who shall not believe, its because they were not of His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Christ's acting and dying as a High Priest never changes, its always according to a High Priest that He performed and is performing the Work of God, even now it is written of Him Heb 5:10

Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Now what him ? Who is or was Melchisedec ? He first comes on the scene in the sacred History book here Gen 14:18

18 And Mulched king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

He was King of Salem and priest of the Most High God. Now was He King of the whole World ? No, He specifically the King of a particular place, Salem which may have been Jerusalem, but the point being, He was an Priest and King for an Specific country and people, for the Most High God, and Christ is made an Priest in that Fashion.

Everything about Christ dying as an High Priest and Offering, makes His Death confined to a specific People and not the whole world of men individually, even though that specific people for which He died " The Seed of Abraham" it is scattered world wide and not confined to the land of Israel, but its within all Nations Gen 17:5

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.