The moons of Mars

bob b

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From ABC.NET

Mars has two moons. In keeping with its role as the god of war, the moons are named Phobos ("terror" in Greek) and Deimos ("panic"). Phobos is in an unstable orbit, and should crash into the surface of Mars in about 30 million years. It seems a huge coincidence, but these two moons were mentioned in books long before they were discovered. Jonathan Swift predicted their sizes and orbits in Gulliver's Travels, as did Voltaire in Micromegas.

Has anybody (except Velikovsky) ever ventured a guess as to how people knew about the moons of Mars before astronomers had telescopes powerful enough to see them?

After they were discovered, astronomers used the same names Swift had given to them in Gulliver's Travels.
 

Mr Jack

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Your statements is incorrect, Swift does mention two moons of Mars in Gulliver's Travels (link to chapter) but he does not name them and does not correctly state their orbital periods or distances (link).

It is startling that he correctly predicts that mars had two moons, but the fact of planets having moons was known in Swift's time and so assigning the notion of unknown moons to more advanced civilisations is not particularly surprising.

Voltaire (link to text) does also mention two moons of mars, along with some odd philosophical comment about there being a requirement for so many thus distant from our star but he makes no mention of orbital properties or similar. It is very possible that Voltaire got the idea of two moons from Gulliver's travel anyway, the sharing of such conceits between different authors can be seen in much of today's fantasy and science fiction, so I don't think it really needs further explanation.
 

bob b

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Mr Jack said:
Your statements is incorrect, Swift does mention two moons of Mars in Gulliver's Travels (link to chapter) but he does not name them and does not correctly state their orbital periods or distances (link).

Thank you for the correction. I simply did a copy/paste from the ABC website. However, if you would reread the ABC article you will find that it did not say that Swift correctly predicted the size and orbit of the moons. In fact, he says the following:

Certain astrologers ... have likewise discovered two lesser stars, or satellites, which revolve around Mars, whereof the innermost is distant from the center of the primary planet exactly three of its diameters, and the outermost five; the former revolves in the space of ten hours, and the latter in twenty-one and a half ... which evidently shews them to be governed by the same law of gravitation, that influences the other heavenly bodies".
Travels Into Several Remote Portions of the World, by Lemuel Gulliver (London, 1726), II, 43.

The ABC story turns out to be slightly garbled. The moons of Mars were actually named by the ancients who apparently also knew about them in the form of what we would call myths (The Steeds of Mars). See Illiad xv. 119; Georgics iii. 91.
 

Mr Jack

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bob b said:
However, if you would reread the ABC article you will find that it did not say that Swift correctly predicted the size and orbit of the moons
Only a particularly generous reading the article could not draw such a conclusion.

bob b said:
The moons of Mars were actually named by the ancients who apparently also knew about them in the form of what we would call myths (The Steeds of Mars). See Illiad xv. 119; Georgics iii. 91.
No, they were named by Henry Maden (link) - who simply followed convention in choosing the names from mythology.
 

bob b

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Mr Jack said:
No, they were named by Henry Maden (link) - who simply followed convention in choosing the names from mythology.

Which of course is what my sources said, i.e. the names came from the ancients and were connected with Mars.

It was no coincidence that those particular names were suggested by Maden and eventually adopted by Hall . In mythology Ares was the Greek god of war (Mars to the Romans) and his His two sons were Deimos (Fear) and Phobos (Terror). Because many myths are distorted accounts of events which actually happened, some have looked into this situation in more depth and come to the conclusion that the reason that the moons were written about prior to their modern discovery is that they were known to be associated with the planet known to us today as Mars.

This was the theme that Velikovsky presented in his Worlds In Collision and led to his hypothesizing that Mars was once closer to the Earth than it is now so that they were more easily observed. Another possibility would be that an even earlier generation than the Greeks had advanced to the point of having telescopes and discovered the satellites of Mars, but that the downfall of mankind due to the Flood left only dim memories (Greek myths) and sketchy details of that earlier time.
 

Gerald

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bob b said:
Another possibility would be that an even earlier generation than the Greeks had advanced to the point of having telescopes and discovered the satellites of Mars, but that the downfall of mankind due to the Flood left only dim memories (Greek myths) and sketchy details of that earlier time.
If an alleged "earlier generation" had developed telescopes, one would think a specimen would have surfaced by now.

Perhaps they're hidden away with those skeletons of giants... :chuckle:
 

bob b

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Ancient Ground Optical Lenses

by Robert Temple

FORBIDDEN TECHNOLOGY

I have discovered an avalanche of evidence proving the existence of a very remarkable ancient technology, one which is well and truly forbidden because it indicates that our ancestors were not idiots, and as we all know very well, if we ever admitted that, the illusion of progress would be seriously imperiled.

The technology I have discovered is optical. I have found in museums all over the world, more than 450 ancient optical artifacts, most of them lenses, but in any case, magnifying aids.

These ancient lenses generally magnify about 1.5 or 2 times. Heinrich Schliemann, the 19th century discoverer of Troy, excavated 48 rock crystal lenses at Troy. This is one of the largest hoards of ancient lenses ever found. These were unfortunately lost for many decades because they were with the missing Trojan gold hoard which disappeared from the Berlin Museum at the end of the Second World War. In recent years the Russians have admitted that the Red Army stole the gold and it is all in Moscow today. The 48 lenses are with these gold artifacts.

Another large number of crystal lenses exist in Crete, mostly found at Knossos. And yet another hoard exists at Ephesus, in Turkey, though those ones are very unusual because they are concave lenses used to correct for myopia (shortsightedness), some shrinking images by as much as 75%.

Most ancient lenses are convex and were used to magnify. At Carthage there are 14 glass lenses and two of rock crystal stored in a drawer in the museum; they have apparently never been displayed.

Egypt too has examples one pair of glass lenses was excavated from the wrappings of a mummy and obviously were used as spectacles except that loops around the ears for modern style spectacles seem not to have been invented in ancient times. So these may have had some kind of nose loop or may have been held as a lorgnette.

The oldest evidence of a sophisticated optical capability which I have found goes back as far as 3300 BC. An ivory knife handle was excavated in the 1990s from a predynastic grave of that date at Abydos in Egypt. It belonged to a king. It bears microscopic carvings which could only have been made with, and can only be seen with, a magnifying glass.

(Click and drag Image to Resize)
The oldest actual lenses which I have found are from the 4th and 5th Dynasties of ancient Egypt and date to perhaps 2500 BC. These are perfectly ground and polished convex crystal lenses which are used as eyes in statues of that date. One such statue is in the Louvre, in Paris, but the rest are in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo. There are many ancient classical texts which specifically describe both magnification and works produced under magnification by craftsmen. For instance, the Roman author Seneca speaks of magnification, and Cicero, Pliny and others described microscopic works of art. I have gathered together all of these texts in my book, The Crystal Sun.

It is from Cicero's description of a miniature version of the Iliad so small that it could fit inside a walnut shell that our modern expression, 'in a nutshell', came into use, passed on by Shakespeare's Hamlet into modern usage.

I even own an ancient lens myself which I was able to purchase. From a friend who collected ancient objects. He had no idea that it was a lens, but he bought it because it had an archaic Greek carving of a flying figure on it. In fact, that wonderful carving in no way interferes with the magnifying properties of the lens, since it is transparent. It was probably added to the lens at a later date in its history, but it offers a convenient way to provide a minimum date for the object.

I took it along to the Greek and Roman Antiquities Department of the British Museum for a dating of the carving. I was told there that the object was a `fake' because it was made of glass. After much prodding, I got the, expert’ to say that if the object had been crystal, the carving would date from the 6th or 7th century BC. Of course, I didn't believe for a minute that the object was glass, so I took it to the Natural History Museum for an X-ray diffraction analysis.

This proved that the object was rock crystal, and hence genuine. The interesting part of the comment by the British Museum expert who insisted my lens was a fake was: `they didn't make these then, it can't be real'.

No, none of this can be real.

...What is the answer to this? I call it consensus blindness. People agree not to see what they are convinced cannot exist. 'Everyone knows' that there was no optical technology in antiquity, so consequently when you come across its, staring you in the face, you go blind. End of conflict.

In fact, optical technology in antiquity sometimes reached extraordinary heights. The Layard Lens in the British Museum dates to the 8th century BC and was excavated in the throne room of the Assyrian King Sargon II's palace in what is today called Iraq. I have carried out a full technical analysis of this lens. I have been able to demonstrate that this rock crystal lens, now cracked and considerably damaged, was originally a perfect convex lens with a flat ('plane') base, which was ground in a special way known to opticians as 'toroidal', - a technique only available for the public since about 1900.

Such grinding produces lenses to correct for individual cases of astigmatism. It would be possible to go out into the street today and find someone whose astigmatism was perfectly corrected by the Layard Lens. It was clearly used as a monocle. It perfectly fits the eye aperture, as we can see in the illustration.

It is most extraordinary that such a high technology existed in the 8th century BC. And not a single Assyriologist has acknowledged the publication of my study of this important object except for the one who encouraged me in the first place; he was curious as to what the results would be. So it appears that the community of Assyriologists find it convenient not to 'see' my book.

Another example of optical technology being taken to extraordinary lengths I found in Sweden. The Eastern Vikings had a very extensive crystal lens industry. More than a hundred lenses survive in Sweden and the surrounding countries. None, however, are known from Norway; the Western Vikings were apparently not let in on the secret.

The Scandinavian archaeologists were delighted at my findings, and they have translated some of my work into Swedish and published it already in a leading archaeological journal there. They had no reason to be blind' because they loved the' fact that I could show that their Vikings were even more interesting than they already thought.

I discovered that the Vikings had a microscopic optical industry: they were grinding and polishing lenses the size of rain drops which could magnify three times. This is an astonishing feat and one would marvel at it even today.

There are many old British lenses as well. I found two collections of them stored in geology collections. Some of them are extraordinarily clever, and have projecting points at the back which I termed resting points', to enable them to be use by craftsmen for magnifying while keeping both hands free; the point does not interfere with the magnifying properties.

A similarly ingenious design was produced at Troy, where one crystal lens was perforated with a central hole, through which the craftsman could insert his carving tool, while the magnification all around was undisturbed.

Ancient telescopes were not a difficult invention once they had the lenses. All you have to do is to hold up a lens in each hand and look through them both at once: thus you have a rudimentary telescope. Even though the image is inverted - it takes a third lens to flip it right way up - this makes no difference if you are, for instance, studying the surface of the moon or looking at the stars. No one can tell if a star is right way up or upside down - it all looks the same.

In The Crystal Sun I suggest that primitive telescopes were used in ancient Britain and that Stonehenge was an observatory. I suggest that the outer trilithons may have acted as a base for a perishable dome of wood or wattle, and that the inner trilithons, which are higher, were to serve as the base for a perishable wooden observation platform facing east, for the observation of lunar risings.

Or are such thoughts forbidden?

© Robert Temple 2000-2002
 

Gerald

Resident Fiend
Problem is, none of the civilizations mentioned above pre-date The Flood™. Anyway, lens-grinding isn't that big of a technological leap.

And you're cut-and-pasting from Robert Temple? The mer-people guy? The Sirius Mystery guy? The darling of nutbar rags like Fortean Times? This fellow is about as loopy as Erich von Däniken.

Come on, bob. This is as bad as that time you were quoting from some shill for the Institute of Noetic Sciences.
 

bob b

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Gerald said:
Problem is, none of the civilizations mentioned above pre-date The Flood™. Anyway, lens-grinding isn't that big of a technological leap.

And you're cut-and-pasting from Robert Temple? The mer-people guy? The Sirius Mystery guy? The darling of nutbar rags like Fortean Times? This fellow is about as loopy as Erich von Däniken.

Come on, bob. This is as bad as that time you were quoting from some shill for the Institute of Noetic Sciences.

I am glad you agree that it might have been possible that lenses, and probably telescopes, were not unknown to the ancients. Thus, my suggestion that the moons of Mars might have been seen by the ancients is not beyond reason.

There are many other indications that the ancients had some degree of technology and were not the "cavemen" generally depicted, although shortly after the Flood caves would have provided shelter for a short time to the survivors and their offspring.

One of my favorites is the Temple of Jupiter in Lebanon, which contains stones which weight as much as a destroyer escort, and were heavier than the lifting capacity of the world's largest cranes (until recently). How and why did they build with such enormous stones?
http://www.alef.net/ALEFLocal/Baalbek-2000TonQuarryStone.Gif

My guess is that a certain amount of technical knowledge was preserved by the flood survivors, but after they died off much of that knowledge died with them.
 
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Highline

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Bob B-
There are countless examples of societies that have forgot their own technology; and, not unlike your flood, this has often happened as a result of environmental distress or change. The Easter Island people, that I have mentioned before, are a classic example. When Europeans "found" them in the 1700's, the Easter Islanders had no sea craft and no idea how they had built the huge statues that were strewn all over their island, yet they were the only ones who had lived there.

An example from the Christian world is in post Roman Europe; an exacavation of grave sites in Britain from around the year 1000 (I got this from a fascinating book called The year 1000: What Life was Like at the Turn of the First Millenium) found women buried with dead babies in their wombs. The babies had head circumferences that were too large for birth, both women and child would have survived if a C-section had been done, but nobody knew how to do that. Of course, a 1000 years earlier in Britain, the Romans had C-sections- the "C" is for Ceaserian.

This reminds me of a true story. Some friends of mine bought a decoration for the yard of their house- it was a sundial. They were showing it to the wife's grandmother; a woman in her early 80's but not senile. She asked "what is it.?" They said "it is a sundial, you can tell what time it is by the shadow it makes." The bewildered senior replied, "my word, whatever will they think of next."
 

fool

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Ancient civilazation is not evidence for the Bible anymore than it is for the Great Turtle.
I ben read'n a book about pole shift.
 

Gerald

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bob b said:
My guess is that a certain amount of technical knowledge was preserved by the flood survivors, but after they died off much of that knowledge died with them.
Well, according to your operating manual, Noah and his immediate family were the only Flood survivors. It isn't hard to guess who dropped the ball... :chuckle:

For those playing along at home, do yourselves a favor and read L. Sprague DeCamp's The Ancient Engineers. You'll find an excellent, very readable treatise on human ingenuity, no deities, aliens or noetic abilities required.
 

bob b

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Gerald said:
Well, according to your operating manual, Noah and his immediate family were the only Flood survivors. It isn't hard to guess who dropped the ball... :chuckle:

For those playing along at home, do yourselves a favor and read L. Sprague DeCamp's The Ancient Engineers. You'll find an excellent, very readable treatise on human ingenuity, no deities, aliens or noetic abilities required.

A great read by one of my favorite science fiction authors.

Another of my favorite science fiction authors started a new religion known today as Scientology. The concept was first published as a two part "true science" article in Astounding Science Fiction while I was a freshman in college (a few years ago).
 

Gerald

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bob b said:
Another of my favorite science fiction authors started a new religion known today as Scientology.
P.T. Barnum would be so proud of L. Ron... :chuckle:
 

bob b

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Gerald said:
P.T. Barnum would be so proud of L. Ron... :chuckle:

Especially since he supposedly once bragged that it would be easy to start a new religion. ;)
 

Gerald

Resident Fiend
bob b said:
Especially since he supposedly once bragged that it would be easy to start a new religion. ;)
Given sufficient charisma and chutzpah, gathering a coterie of fanatically loyal followers is not all that difficult. Everything after that is a matter of PR, timing and luck (assuming an absence of supernatural assistance...).
 
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