The Missing Links in the Fossil Record

2003cobra

New member
Well, it might surprise you but we can agree on that...and other things. We can't say we fully understand all prophecy. We might not correctly understand God's grace and how we became a believer. We might have a hard time wrapping our mind around wrapping our head around some of the scenes from the Old Testament. For ex... and YIKES!!! In Joshua 5, he made flint knives and then circumcised thousands and thousands of grown men. It is small wonder that they rest it for a couple days before they continued on their journey. So yes I agree with you there are things that sometimes seems baffling and hard to understand.


Where we don't agree is in Genesis 1. It is very clearly told as history and not allegorical. Jesus referred to it as real history as did Paul and other Bible authors. The gospel is actually dependent on the first few chapters of Genesis. If God created over the course of millions of years using a process of death and extinctions that would speak to the nature of God. That low opinion of God is evidenced in house's posts. He seems to imagine God as some super scientist who is conducting experiments.


And, if death existed before first Adam sinned, then the sacrifice last Adam made at the cross becomes meaningless. So.... apologies sort of, if it seems I defend Genesis 1 too vigorously. But, I feel that Satan is using attacks on Genesis, the foundation of the Gospel (And every Christian doctrine) driving millions away from trusting the Bible. Compromise is not the solution.
What I find fascinating is that those people who believe in a literal 6 days of creation in the story found in Genesis 1:1-2:4a typically completely ignore the second creation story that begins in Genesis 2.4b.

What we have in first two chapters of the Bible are two creation stories with different orders and methods of creation. Both cannot be literal history, as they are quite contradictory in the events.

The choices are:
1) Believe the first creation story is literal and the second is figurative
2) Believe the second creation story is literal and the first is figurative or
3) Believe they are both figurative.

We have the scriptures and we have the evidence that God has given us in creation. Those two sources point me to the third option.
 

6days

New member
2003cobra said:
What I find fascinating is that those people who believe in a literal 6 days of creation in the story found in Genesis 1:1-2:4a typically completely ignore the second creation story that begins in Genesis 2.4b.
Hey Cobra, thanks for your comments. I haven't noticed you here before... so, welcome here!

Genesis 2 is completely consistent with the creation account, and has been seen that way throughout most of the last 3300 years. In recent times, some theistic evolutionists have tried to add vast amounts of time into God's Word. (Although, even in scripture we see Paul arguing against the evolutionists of his day, the Epicureans).

In most ancient literature, (and even much today), an author provides an overview of a story, then fills in the details later. We see this elsewhere in scripture and it is not confusing... and we don't imagine that the author is confused; nor that he os telling 2 different accounts. Likewise in the creation account, the author starts off by giving us the chronological order of the six literal creation days. The author then follows that up by providing details which in particular relate to the first humans.
 

2003cobra

New member
Hey Cobra, thanks for your comments. I haven't noticed you here before... so, welcome here!

Genesis 2 is completely consistent with the creation account, and has been seen that way throughout most of the last 3300 years. In recent times, some theistic evolutionists have tried to add vast amounts of time into God's Word. (Although, even in scripture we see Paul arguing against the evolutionists of his day, the Epicureans).

In most ancient literature, (and even much today), an author provides an overview of a story, then fills in the details later. We see this elsewhere in scripture and it is not confusing... and we don't imagine that the author is confused; nor that he os telling 2 different accounts. Likewise in the creation account, the author starts off by giving us the chronological order of the six literal creation days. The author then follows that up by providing details which in particular relate to the first humans.

Thanks for the welcome.

The second creation story is very different from the first and literally incompatible.

Here are some examples:
1) The order is different. The first creation story has the order of plants, animals, man and woman. The second creation story has the order man, plants, animals, and woman.
2) The method of creation in the first creation story is God telling the earth to bring forth plants and animals (interestingly, the same method of creation atheists accept — the Earth bringing forth life). The second creation story has God physically involved, making man from clay and planting a garden or orchard.
3) The names of God are different.
4) Just so you won’t miss the difference and the transition, the first creation story speaks of the heavens and the earth, while the second speaks earth and the heavens.

Do you read a translation that is modern and clear? I recommend the NRSV.

This doesn’t make the scriptures untrue or unreliable. It makes the early chapters of Genesis figurative, not literal.
 

6days

New member
2003cobra said:
The second creation story is very different from the first and literally incompatible.
There is one creation account in God's word.

Genesis 1 and 2 are completely consistent with each other.


Our creator, Jesus, spoke of just one creation account and He combined phrases from Genesis 1 and 2 together speaking of creation. Matthew 19:4,5 Jesus says “He who made them from the beginning made them male and female (see Gen.1:26) and said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh (See Gen. 2:24).”


2003cobra said:
The order is different.
The creation account only provides the order in Genesis 1.


2003cobra said:
The names of God are different.
Haha... it must blow your mind when some of the different names of God are used within the same verse. Genesis 28:13. (Jehovah and Elohim) "And the Lord stood beside him and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac"


Cobra.... when you start trying to do linguistic gymnastics with Genesis, you end up with a compromised gospel, and a meaningless crucifixion. The Scripture is clear... God created the heavens and earth and everything in them in six days. Death could not have existed during these six days since God refers to death as the enemy, yet He called everything "very good". Death was the result of first Adam's sin... not a trial and error process employed by God to create.
 

2003cobra

New member
6days writes
The creation account only provides the order in Genesis 1.


You must not have read the second creation story. It clearly says man was formed before plants had sprung up.

And it clearly says man was alone so God formed the animals.

And it clearly says no suitable companion was found for man among the animals so woman was created.

To deny the second creation story has a clear order is to disbelieve the Bible.

Here is a sample:

In the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5 when no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was no one to till the ground; 6 but a stream would rise from the earth, and water the whole face of the ground— 7 then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being. (NRSV)


God formed man when no plants had yet sprung up.

The story even makes it clear that no man-planted crops had yet sprung up because there was no man to till the soil and no wild plants had yet sprung up because there was no rain.

So the chronology is there and clear: man first, then plants.

The first creation story differs: the earth brought forth plants on Day 3 and man came on Day 6.

6days, it appears you haven’t read the stories recently.

For some help understanding, the notes of the NET Bible are excellent. Here is a sample:

tn See the note on the phrase “the heavens and the earth” in 1:1; the order here is reversed, but the meaning is the same.

13 tn Heb “Now every sprig of the field before it was.” The verb forms, although appearing to be imperfects, are technically preterites coming after the adverb טֶּרֶם (terem). The word order (conjunction + subject + predicate) indicates a disjunctive clause, which provides background information for the following narrative (as in 1:2). Two negative clauses are given (“before any sprig…”, and “before any cultivated grain” existed), followed by two causal clauses explaining them, and then a positive circumstantial clause is given – again dealing with water as in 1:2 (water would well up).

14 tn The first term, שִׂיחַ (siakh), probably refers to the wild, uncultivated plants (see Gen 21:15; Job 30:4,7); whereas the second, עֵשֶׂב (’esev), refers to cultivated grains. It is a way of saying: “back before anything was growing.”

15 tn The two causal clauses explain the first two disjunctive clauses: There was no uncultivated, general growth because there was no rain, and there were no grains because there was no man to cultivate the soil.
 

6days

New member
2003cobra said:
You must not have read the second creation story. It clearly says man was formed before plants had sprung up.

God's Word has one creation account...and, understood as one account by various Bible authors and by Jesus. It is also clear in other verses such as Ex. 20:11 that everything that has been created, was created in 6 days

Separating Genesis 1 and 2 into two different accounts has been pushed by atheist web sites as evidence of contradiction. In recent times some theists have compromised adding secular evolutionary ideas into God's Word; and, the claim of 2 seperate creation accounts was bought into.

God's Word clearly tells us "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day"


2003cobra said:
God formed man when no plants had yet sprung up.
Scripture tells us God created plants on the 3rd day and man on the 6th day. The cultivated plants or, "plants of the field" were not yet growing, but plants themselves had been created 3 days earlier.

2003cobra said:
The story even makes it clear that no man-planted crops had yet sprung up because there was no man to till the soil
Yes... very straight forward and logical.

2003cobra said:
...and no wild plants had yet sprung up because there was no rain.
Lets look and see what it actually says...
Genesis 1:11 "Then God said, “Let the earth put forth vegetation: plants yielding seed, and fruit trees of every kind on earth that bear fruit with the seed in it.” And it was so."

So, on the 3rd day, God created
* vegetation, or "grass" in Youngs Literal Translation. (deshe’)
* seed-yielding herbs (‘eseb mazria zera)
* fruit trees (ets pariy)

Now let's look at plants in Genesis 2, a chapter providing details about when man was created. We are now told that certain specific plants did not yet exist.

Genesis 2:5 (before God formed man) "no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up"
* “plant of the field” (siah hassadeh)
* “herb of the field” (eseb hassadeh).

The plants God created on day 3 are still there but we are now told 2 types of plants came into existence after man.

1) eseb hassadeh.... cultivated plants

2) eseb hassadeh... Youngs Literal translated this as shrub of the field. One Hebrew scholar,Mark Futato,says the term means "wild shrubs of the steppe” (Westminster Theological Journal).

This would be consistent with thorny plants not existing yet.


Rather than trying to find contradictions in God's Word, we should be using scripture to help interpret Scripture. Genesis 2 compliments Genesis 1, and does not contradict. In the beginning over six days, God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them.
 

2003cobra

New member
6days, since you are denying what the Bible actually says in Genesis 2, we don’t have much common ground with which to discuss this.

For that matter, you are denying what the Bible actually says in Genesis 1. For example,
6days wrote:
Scripture tells us God created plants on the 3rd day and man on the 6th day. The cultivated plants or, "plants of the field" were not yet growing, but plants themselves had been created 3 days earlier.


This is what Genesis 1 says about Day 3:
Then God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation: plants yielding seed, and fruit trees of every kind on earth that bear fruit with the seed in it." And it was so.12 The earth brought forth vegetation: plants yielding seed of every kind, and trees of every kind bearing fruit with the seed in it. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, the third day. (NRSV)


You say cultivated plants were not yet growing on Day 6. The Bible says the brought forth plants yielding seed of every kind on Day 3.

So you deny what the Bible plainly says in Genesis 1.

These two creation stories, with different orders and methods of creation, may be in the Bible for the purpose of showing us that these stories are figurative. And the verses I quoted may be there for you, so you will know to change your opinion and accept both stories.
 
Thanks for the welcome.

The second creation story is very different from the first and literally incompatible.

There is no second creation story. When reading the scriptures, you need to have cultural context in mind. Genesis 1:1-2:3 is the history of creation. You have pointed out some changes below (which I will get into), but you, like so many others, do not seem to grasp the meaning of Genesis 2:4. It is very important to know that whenever it mentions "These are the generations..." what follows is very specific about man. In this instance what follows is an expansion of day 6 and specifically the part of day 6 where man is concerned, thus the use of the word Generations in verse 4. There is something else to mention about Genesis 2:4 but it will be covered in your example 4.

Here are some examples:
1) The order is different. The first creation story has the order of plants, animals, man and woman. The second creation story has the order man, plants, animals, and woman.

Genesis 2:5-7 gives the details that directly surrounding the creation of man, and the creation of man himself. as 6days has pointed out, it does not say that there are no plants, just no plants or herbs of the field that would be cultivated by man. Now notice in Genesis 2:8 that it does not say that God created a garden and put man therein: it says that God planted a garden and put man therein. After Adam was placed in the garden of Eden, God grew every tree that is pleasant to the eye and good for food; including the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:9). Genesis 2:10-14 gives us the location and geographical description of the land surrounding the garden. Genesis 2:15 tells us why Adam was placed in the garden; to dress and keep it. In Genesis 2:16-17 God tells Adam that he is free to eat of every tree in Eden except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Interestingly enough this first commandment is also the one to which Jesus refers when the Pharisees ask him what the first commandment was, but that is a rabbit trail.

When we come to Genesis 2:18, we have mention that Adam is alone and that it is not good. Notice that it only mentioned him being alone after he is placed in the garden, which would indicate that there were animal outside of the garden. The following two verses, Genesis 2:19-20, is God creating more animals inside of the garden so that Adam can name them and find an aid or helper for him. the rest of chapter 2, Genesis 2:21-25, describes the creation and naming of woman. I would like to point out that there could very well be a gap in Genesis, but that gap would be found between Genesis 2:5 and Genesis 3:1, not between the first two verses of Chapter 1.

2) The method of creation in the first creation story is God telling the earth to bring forth plants and animals (interestingly, the same method of creation atheists accept — the Earth bringing forth life). The second creation story has God physically involved, making man from clay and planting a garden or orchard.
3) The names of God are different.

I am grouping examples 2 and 3 together because there is something profound to be said, and a correlation between the two. I will start with example 3 because once you understand the significance of 3 you will understand better the significance of 2.

When the Book of Genesis Opens, we see that there is absolutely nothing until God (eloheem) created. This same name, eloheem, is used throughout Chapter 1 up until we get into the detailed account of man's creation in chapter 2. The name, eloheem, is used until that point because there was nothing within the account to need any other description of eloheem. In Genesis 2 however, after man was given dominion over all the earth and could be considered an eloheem, it is necessary to add and adjective to "eloheem" which differentiates the supreme eloheem from the common one. Therefore we find "yehhovaw eloheem" or "Eternal God" being used in Genesis chapter 2. Notice that the original name "eloheem" is still there; it just has an adjective modifying it. The addition of the adjective to the name also indicates that God has became personally involved with his creation since the creation of man.

4) Just so you won’t miss the difference and the transition, the first creation story speaks of the heavens and the earth, while the second speaks earth and the heavens.

Actually, the use of the word "generations" accompanied with both phrases "heavens and the earth" is a common way that Hebrew writers let the reader know that there was a specific transition coming within the writing. They would often state something forward and then again in reverse to let the reader know that one section was coming to an end and another one was beginning. This writing technique is definitely seen in Genesis 2:4. These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day the Eternal God made the earth and the heavens...
 

2003cobra

New member
VV writes:
It is very important to know that whenever it mentions "These are the generations..." what follows is very specific about man.


Yes, it is very specific than man was formed before any plants had sprung up. And it is very specific that man was alone so God formed the animals seeking a companion for man.

The second creation story is very specifically different in order and method of creation.

Look at the text:
In the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5 when no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was no one to till the ground; 6 but a stream would rise from the earth, and water the whole face of the ground— 7 [then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being.

You are rejecting the text.
 

6days

New member
2003cobra said:
6days, since you are denying what the Bible actually says in Genesis 2, we don’t have much common ground with which to discuss this.
Actually, I showed you what Genesis 2 says both in Hebrew, and in your preferred version of English, and Youngs Literal.


I also showed you a verse that tells us God created the heavens and the earth and everything in it, in six days. I am not the one who suggests this might be just figurative stories.


2003cobra said:
You say cultivated plants were not yet growing on Day 6.The Bible says the brought forth plants yielding seed of every kind on Day 3.
Cobra... you should realize your belief may be in trouble when you essentially rely on a paraphrase and ignore every major translation. The NRSV is not a translation, but instead the publishers re-worded their own RSV. They have added the word "every" which is not in RSV... Not in the Hebrew... Not in Youngs Literal Translation... nor in the other major translations such as the NIV, NLT, KJV, ESV, NAS, ISV, NET,Darby, WEB, DouayNES and more. Genesis 1 tells us wch plants God created on day 3. Genesis 2 tells us which plants did not yet exist before God created man.


2003cobra said:
So you deny what the Bible plainly says in Genesis 1.
I did reject your paraphrase of that verse. Does that mean you reject the Hebrew, and every major translation?


coba said:
These two creation stories, with different orders and methods of creation, may be in the Bible for the purpose of showing us that these stories are figurative.

The creation account is in God's Word because it is tbe foundation to the Gospel and every Christian doctrine. Jesus referred to Genesis as literal history... (not 2 contradicting and figurative stories). He went to the cross because Genesis is true history. Jesus asks 'If you Don't believe Moses, then how can you believe in me?'
 
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iouae

Well-known member
Gen 2:5
And every plant of the field before H2962 it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before H2962 it grew: for the LORD God H430 had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
Gen 2:6
But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
Gen 2:7

And the LORD God formed man...

I want to draw your attention to the word "terem" or Strongs H2962
Pronunciation
teh'·rem (Key)
Part of Speech
preposition
Root Word (Etymology)
From an unused root apparently meaning to interrupt or suspend

There were plants (and animals) on earth before the Lord interrupted or suspended them in a mass extinction just before God created some new (domestic) plants and animals, and some old ones.

Genesis 2:6 definitely seems to be speaking of a time immediately before man was placed on earth where it seems the earth was watered by a vapour rising from below, rather than rain falling from above.

Genesis 1:2 tells us that before God created man, the earth was in darkness due to a water vapour. God's first act was to clear this so light could penetrate to the seas. Then God separates the waters above from the waters below, meaning divides this water vapour into clouds above and sea below, creating clear sky.

It was this water vapour rising from the earth which had made the earth dark and without form and void, before Adam. Maybe geysers of steam were being referred to which sent earth into a winter.

But I believe we should take note of this word implying there was an interruption of land plants before Adam, which continued after Adam.
 

iouae

Well-known member
I explain this verse as follows...

Gen 2:19
And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

God had created birds on the fifth day, and land animals on the sixth day before creating Adam.

It does not say that God created birds and land animals in front of Adam. It is saying God HAD created birds and land animals out of the dust of the ground, but God brought them to Adam to name. They have to already be in existence to be brought to Adam to name. After being brought to Adam to name, Adam recognises a pattern, that they are in troops flocks and herds, while he is man alone. So God puts Adam to sleep, still on day six, and creates Eve.

Eden is a large area of land. Inside this land is a hedged area called The Garden of Eden. God created many animals, which roamed Eden, but were not inside The Garden of Eden. God brought these animals from Eden, into The Garden of Eden for Adam to name, then chased the wilder ones back out of The Garden of Eden and back into Eden, the land. The Garden of Eden is a small enough plot of land that one man and one woman could dress and keep - sort of like your back yard. In your back yard you keep out all the snakes and scorpions, and wolves and lions, but you keep as pets, the sheep and cows and pigeons. The Garden of Eden was a landscaped area planted by God in Eden, made to be kept by Adam and Eve, and hedged off from the rest of Eden.

And as God brings the animals to Adam to name, Adam probably cries out in delight "Oh Daddy, can we PLEASE keep two of those cats in The Garden? They are so slinky and gorgeous?" while saying about other animals "Oh Daddy, please get those noisy, over-excited slobbering dogs away from me".

Notice this verse which shows that Eden, and the garden are separate entities since the river goes FROM Eden (out of Eden), INTO the Garden, and from the Garden it then separates into four different rivers.

Gen 2:10
And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
 
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6days

New member
iouae said:
But I believe we should take note of this word implying there was an interruption of land plants before Adam, which continued after Adam
In six days, God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them.
 

iouae

Well-known member
In six days, God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them.

Me thinketh thou protesteth too much, repeating this mantra as often as it takes for you to believe it.

But think of this which I had not seen till it was discussed here.

Gen 2:4

These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth

Generations plural means there is a granddaddy heaven and earth, a daddy heaven and earth, and a son heaven and earth i.e.. multiple successive heavens and earth, exactly as I said. God renews the earth each generation.
 

6days

New member
iouae said:
Me thinketh thou protesteth too much, repeating this mantra as often as it takes for you to believe it.
Not a mantra... it was scripture, and yes I believe it.

iouae said:
Gen 2:4
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth

Generations plural means there is a granddaddy heaven and earth, a daddy heaven and earth, and a son heaven and earth i.e.. multiple successive heavens and earth
Thanks for the laugh. Your replies almost seem like you are desperate in finding some way to cling to your beliefs. There is nothing in scripture about daddy heavens and son earth.


Just a suggestion for you.... instead of searching for a version of the Bible that uses language you feel might support your beliefs, take into consideration several different translations. Also consider that language changes and 'gay' may not mean gay...or 'replenish' may not mean replenish. Any of the top 20 or so major translations are good. For example in Gen. 2:4 you will find wording such as....

* These are the generations...

* This is the account...

* These are the records

* This is the history

Also, you need to note context in the passage, and in other scripture in general.


And....you might want to consider opinions / wisdom/ understanding of others instead of just dismissing. In particular [MENTION=6254]veritas[/MENTION] veritate made some good points in post 231 regarding 'These are the generation's.
 

iouae

Well-known member
Not a mantra... it was scripture, and yes I believe it.

Thanks for the laugh. Your replies almost seem like you are desperate in finding some way to cling to your beliefs. There is nothing in scripture about daddy heavens and son earth.


Just a suggestion for you.... instead of searching for a version of the Bible that uses language you feel might support your beliefs, take into consideration several different translations. Also consider that language changes and 'gay' may not mean gay...or 'replenish' may not mean replenish. Any of the top 20 or so major translations are good. For example in Gen. 2:4 you will find wording such as....

* These are the generations...

* This is the account...

* These are the records

* This is the history

Also, you need to note context in the passage, and in other scripture in general.


And....you might want to consider opinions / wisdom/ understanding of others instead of just dismissing. In particular [MENTION=6254]veritas[/MENTION] veritate made some good points in post 231 regarding 'These are the generation's.

Sorry 6days, generations means generations. Here are the first verses using generations ...
Gen 2:4
These are the generations H8435 of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
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Gen 5:1
This is the book of the generations H8435 of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
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Gen 6:9
These are the generations H8435 of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
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Gen 10:1
Now these are the generations H8435 of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.
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Gen 10:32
These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, H8435 in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.
 
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