So in Matt. 10, He instructs the Twelve to go NOT unto the Gentiles; He then asserts the same about Himself in Matt. 15, but what He is actually doing is setting up faith alone - sheesh, oy vay, and :doh:
ECT The Jesus of Mt 4 was totally confused acc. to D'ism and MAD people
- Thread starter Interplanner
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So in Matt. 10, He instructs the Twelve to go NOT unto the Gentiles; He then asserts the same about Himself in Matt. 15, but what He is actually doing is setting up faith alone - sheesh, oy vay, and :doh:
Interplanner
Well-known member
It was NEVER a mystery that the nations would hear the Gospel. That was buried by Judaism as it became self-absorbed. Never, not a chance. It's all there in Genesis 1-11. It matters in 12 and 15.
The mystery he means here is that of Eph 3:5 that this access comes through the Gospel, not the Law. Judaism had voided such promises in their thinking, that he grew up in, and could not imagine how anything other than the law would bless the nations. Diagram the verse; the weight falls on the phrase 'through the Gospel.' That is standard Paul-speak in contrast with the Law.
I think you're a wee bit confused?
Interplanner
Well-known member
I already knew that. Do you have an intelligent response? The outreach to the nations is end to end in the OT.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Sure there are.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Find them for me in Ephesians, the widest circulated document of the apostle. In ch 4, as you know, there are the 7 Ones of the faith.
I don't need to know that you think that, I need to know why you think that.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Ephesians is only concerned with the Body of Christ, one inheritance within the Kingdom of God.
No; neither Gentile salvation, nor its means, were ever a mystery...
But anyway - about Ephesians 3...
Which gospel?
Build an Ark, I'm flooding the basement?
Yo, Israel - here is a Law to guide you?
The Egyptians are coming, but no problem; watch this?
Yo, Daniel; Jeremiah's prophecy is nearing its end?
The kingdom of heaven is at hand?
Yo, Israel; here's a foretaste of the NC?
You hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins?
Another which is not another?
heir
TOL Subscriber
The Bible tells us why the gospel that Paul preached was a mystery. It's time you believe it.
1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
The mystery he means here is that of Eph 3:5 that this access comes through the Gospel, not the Law. Judaism had voided such promises in their thinking, that he grew up in, and could not imagine how anything other than the law would bless the nations. Diagram the verse; the weight falls on the phrase 'through the Gospel.' That is standard Paul-speak in contrast with the Law.[/QUOTE]The mystery of Ephesians 3:6 is the mystery of the gospel that was hid in God. It was UNSEARCHABLE in the OT!
Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Ephesians 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Ephesians 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Ephesians 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
It is our duty to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery (Ephesians 3:9 KJV), and at the same time let it serve as a reminder to the principalities and powers (Ephesians 6:11-12 KJV) of the manifold wisdom of God: that God's eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord has the power to save all men today (1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV)!
And I'll use you little devils all day as a springboard to do just that!
Interplanner
Well-known member
The mystery of Ephesians 3:6 is the mystery of the gospel that was hid in God. It was UNSEARCHABLE in the OT!
Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Ephesians 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Ephesians 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Ephesians 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
It is our duty to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery (Ephesians 3:9 KJV), and at the same time let it serve as a reminder to the principalities and powers (Ephesians 6:11-12 KJV) of the manifold wisdom of God: that God's eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord has the power to save all men today (1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV)!
And I'll use you little devils all day as a springboard to do just that![/QUOTE]
Heir,
you haven't got a clue, and you aren't separating out quote from response well enough to let me know what point you are addressing.
1, Quoting I Cor 2 at me is stupid. The first thing you have to do is designate who the world was. The 'world' he was referring to was Judaism, which the apostles often called the world, and so actually WE AGREE. It was a mystery to them, not to believers. Gal 3:17 tells why it was a mystery--because of their voiding and replacing the Promise.
2, the Gospel was in no sense unsearchable in the OT, or else you don't know it. God would crush the head of the serpent, but the Seed's heel would be damaged doing so. Eve gives birth to another child and says in imperfect Hebrew: "I have had a child--the help from the LORD." (I have read probably 20 rabbis try that one). Ps 22-24. Ps 2, 110. Is 53, Dan 9. You must be kidding if you think that was hidden.
Paul is in post-exile Judaism and the Gospel was a mystery to them because the overall promise to Israel was not going to be fulfilled through the Law. In fact, it wasn't even going to be what they thought. They really had no idea what the age of the Spirit was or how it would integrate with the Gospel. The NT is talking about Judaism's crusts of beliefs when it says there was a mystery or that 'they' didn't know what was going on. It is not talking about the OT or saying it was a mystery to the OT.
3, yes, your last point is fine, provided you are targeting Judaism as Paul did. They were the ones controlled by the power of the spirit of the air, and harming so many believers. The Rev says they were a harlot riding on the back of a beast that stood for Rome--a pretty ugly picture.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Go back and fix the quotes in your last post. The last part you quoted is your yip yapping and not my post to you. You can't even keep the quotes straight, intermingler. The mystery of 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV is not the same mystery as that of Ephesians 3!
heir
TOL Subscriber
The gospel that Paul preached (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) was hidden in the scriptures (1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV). The mystery of the gospel: that Gentiles such as we should be fellowheirs (with those to whom Paul was first sent beginning with Paul 1 Timothy 1:16 KJV), and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel, is the mystery of the gospel in Ephesians 3 and was absolutely hid in God/unsearchable!
Interplanner
Well-known member
I know it sounds like that, but there is Is 49:6, for one of a hundred instances. Don't forget to note that this verse is a trinitarian conversation.
Everyone knew that the message was to go to the nations; post-exilic Judaism had missionaries! (Mt 23). But they did not have Paul's stress on 'dia tou euangeliou' in Eph 3:5. Judaism did NOT hinge it all on the Gospel. Paul did. The Gospel is how all people share the promises to Israel; it is how they all inherit the same; it is how they are made members in the 'house' (aka adoption).
Not that I agree (I don't) but she is relating distinction between what Paul first preached in Acts and what he later preached.
Consider that apparantly, you are addressing what YOU think you are addressing.
ClimateSanity
New member
One of a hundred instances? Hardly, if you read it for what it says and not what you get when you filter it through new testament theology. When you read the old testament, you must forget everything you have been taught in the new testament if you want it's real meaning.
:chuckle:
You are so focused on the words "by the gospel" that you completely by pass the very next words...
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Why does Paul constantly single that aspect out if he was preaching your "one size fits all" gospel?
Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
Interplanner
Well-known member
You have confused a by-product with the Gospel itself. The Gospel is not the gaining of inheritance or unity. It had already been explained--what God did in Christ. The "that" of the next verse is not defining the Gospel, but telling us what one of the side-effects is. The sun's heat and the sun's light are two different things.
Otherwise, there would be more like 50 Gospels in the NT, because you could concievably go through each phrase and find a side-effect from it and say the same thing.
Certain things 'stack' on other things. the task of theology is to end up with it all stacking up, not piled on the ground.
Otherwise, there would be more like 50 Gospels in the NT, because you could concievably go through each phrase and find a side-effect from it and say the same thing.
Certain things 'stack' on other things. the task of theology is to end up with it all stacking up, not piled on the ground.