The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[agape]

Kevin,

Agape,
quote:
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I don't know how many times I have said that we need to remain within the context. "Save" in the context, is not talking about save in light of Romans 10:9. It is talking about saved in the sense of being whole in one's soul and physical well being, delivered from hurt or harm...etc. He gives the explanation of "save" in the context.
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I don't quite understand what you're getting at.

OBVIOUSLY

If you're insisting that this faith only effects the physical well-being of a person, you are wrong.

There you go again...TWISTING MY WORDS. I SAID THAT THE WORD SAVED IN JAMES IS NOT TALKING ABOUT SOMEONE GETTING SAVED, BORN AGAIN. I SAID THAT THE JAMES IS TALKING TO THOSE WHO ALREADY HAVE FAITH AND THEREFORE, IF YOU REMAIN WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF CHAPTER 2 THE WORD "SAVED" DOES NOT MEAN SAVED IN LIGHT OF ROMANS 10:9. SAVED, IN LIGHT OF FAITH WITHOUT WORKS HERE IN JAMES, NOT EPHESIANS 2:8,9, MEANS TO MAKE WHOLE THAT WHICH IS LACKING. TO DELIVER ONE FROM HURT OR HARM AND THE REST I SAID.

James is speaking about the same faith in all of the chapters of his book, which certainly does effect our salvation.

James is not teaching anyone to get saved and born again. He is teaching about the faith they already have BECAUSE they are ALREADY SAVED AND BORN AGAIN. Having this FAITH WITHOUT WORKS profits no one...it is as dead, no life to the faith that they already have...AND IN THIS SENSE, it does have affect on one's salvation in that IT IS NOT BEING UTILIZED.

The Bible speaks that there is one faith that matters in terms of salvation, and James would preach that faith.

Yes...and what does he preach about the already faith? He preached that that faith, without works" is dead, unprofitable.

The word "save" in James 2 certainly has a bearing on salvation, it speaks of the same type of works that condemned the people to hell in Matt 25:41-46.

Oh baloney. That's your own private interpretation. James makes mention of NO SUCH THING. This is an example of you twisting not only my words around, but God's Word too. Show me where it states what you say it means in James 2. Does James even mention about hell fire or being damned???.

You have NO evidence to suggest that James would talk about a faith that does not have a bearing on our salvation.

It's obvious here that you are the one who has no proof and that you haven't a clue to what James 2 is really talking about and that's because you are reading your own theory into it instead of allowing the Word to interpret itself.

Here, listen closely, and maybe you'll understand what I've been trying to tell you. Works does NOT save us. Works plays a role in our salvation. Yes, believe it or not, God actually requires us to DO something to be saved.

There is a difference between works saving us, and having works play a role in our salvation.

Works do not save or get anyone born again. However, works AFTER we are saved and born again does play an important role in our walking in what we have already received at the time of the new birth. We put our faith into action and make it work for us and for others. See how simple it all is?

Here is another way I can simply put it.

Ephesians 2:8,9:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ok...God says we are SAVED THROUGH FAITH, NOT OF WORKS. CLEAR AND SIMPLE. NO IFS, ANDS OR BUTS ABOUT IT

Now let's compare the above verse with James

James 2:14-17:
What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

What does it profit a man if he hath faith (already has faith) and not any works (does nothing with his faith), can faith WITHOUT WORKS save him? Can just having faith alone , no works or action taken on that faith "save," "deliver," "keep whole" a brother or sister who is naked and destitute of daily food.

See the difference?

Is James saying can faith, without works, save according to Romans 10:9?? NO. Is James saying that faith without works will send someone to hell?? Absolutely NO.

He is saying, according to the example he gives, that one who has faith and does not put it into action cannot save one FROM being naked and hungry. Action must be taken in order to help or deliver anyone from whatever need he/she may have.

If we have faith and are saved and born again of God's Spirit and we do nothing with the faith we have, allowing it to remain dormant, we, nor those around us, will not receive the blessings and benefits that come along with faith as a living reality.

Kevin, you say that works does not SAVE us...then at the same time you say that God requires us to DO WORKS to BE SAVED. You also falsely state that James is saying if no works they will go to hell. So HOW CAN YOU SAY WORKS CANNOT SAVE US? I really think you are being spiritually blinded and you cannot see how you are twisting God's Word around. This is not to be nasty or critical, Kevin, but I suggest that you pray to God to remove the spiritual blindness from your eyes so that you can see what the Scriptures are truly saying.

God bless you.

 

[Evangelion]

Easy there, Agape. Calm down please, matey. :up:

Kevin's just doing his job. I'm sorry if he's doing it too well for your liking.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Scripture could not be any plainer that "eternal life" is a GIFT(Ro.6:23).It is not only a gift,but it is given FREELY:

"Being justified FREELY by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"(Ro.3:24).

If "works" of any kind are needed for salvation,then the "gift" of eternal life would no longer be considered a gift:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward NOT RECKONED OF GRACE,but of debt"(Ro.4:4).

Paul also says that if the sinner obtained "righteousness" by his own works,then he would have just cause to "boast" before God.That is why he says:

"For by grace are ye saved by faith...not of works,lest any man should boast"(Eph.2:8,9).

Another place Paul affirms the same principle:

The Lord is "the justifier of him who believeth in Jesus.Where is boasting then?It is excluded.By what law? Of works?Nay,but by the law of faith"(Ro.3:26,27).

So if we are saved by our works,we would have a cause to boast before God.

However,there are those who do not believe that eternal life is a FREE gift.They insist that the sinner must believe and also do works before they can be saved.And to support this false doctrine,they use the words of James:

"Was not Abraham,our father,justified by works,when he had offered Isaac,his son,upon the altar"(Jms.2:21).

However,theApostle Paul makes it clear that Abraham might have been "justified" by his works,but he was not justified by his works before God:

"For if Abraham were justified by works,he hath something of which to glory,BUT NOT BEFORE GOD"(Ro.4:2).

The word "glory" is from the Greek word "kauchema",meaning "boasting".

So if Abraham were justified by works,then he may have something ofwhich to boast,but not before God.He was not justified by "works" before God.

The epistle of James is dealing with men on their own terms.It is about what men SAY about their faith.If the words of James was doctrinal,we would expect to see James 2:14 stated in this manner:

"What doth it profit,my brethren,though a man have faith..."

Instead,this is what we read: "What doth it profit,my brethren,though a man SAY he hath faith..."

James is saying that if a man SAYS that he has faith,but there are no works that accompany that faith,as far as other men are concerned he really does not have any faith at all.And that kind of "faith" cannot save anyone:

"What doth it profit,my brethren,though a man SAY he hath faith,and have not works?That kind of faith can´t save anyone"(Jms.2:14;NLT).

So let us accept the fact that eternal life is a FREE GIFT and cease from teaching that some "works" are necessary to obtain eternal life.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Evangelion]

That's the way, Jerry - block your ears and chant. :up:

Works for the Catholics, doesn't it?

 

[Apollos]

God chooses water baptism...

God chooses water baptism...

Hello Freak -

I didn't know He had to use water (something He created).

God did not "have to", but WATER baptism is the means He chose through which man can appropriate the salvation He offers freely by His grace.

God could have chosen ANY means He saw fit. God chose water baptism to "wash away" sins.

(It is just like Jesus choosing water in John 9:12 to heal the blind man. Jesus could have chosen any means He wanted. In this case it was spittle and water.)

 

[Apollos]

All must "accept" the gift...

All must "accept" the gift...

Hi Jerry -

In my lifetime I have received many "free" gifts. In each and every case I had to do something to receive the gift, even if it was as little as reaching out with my hands to accept it.

The free gift of salvationoffered by God is the same...

Man must do something to receive/appropriate the free gift of salvation. God stipulates in His word what man must DO to receive it!!

Not ALL men will be saved - they will not all receive God's "free" gift of salvation. WHY??

The men that DO what God says to do to receive His gift of salvation will receive that gift. ONLY those that DO what He stipulates will appropriate salvation.

So - what must man do?? This is the only question left to answer now!!

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

A Good excuse Kevin , but I would have admit I was just wrong.

Excuse? Wrong about what? What are you talking about? Like I said, the following statement:

Agape told me the facts? *snicker* That was a good one, c.moore. Thanks for the laugh.

was said in a sarcastic tone. Do you not see the sarcasm there? Just WHY do you think I put the word *snicker* in there? I was laughing at the idea that Agape supposedly told me the "facts". Just because Agape says something, that does NOT make it "fact". I wasn't saying that Agape didn't type something to me, I'm just saying that what he said isn't "fact" as you put it.

I think I know myself much better than you do, so if I say I'm being sarcastic about something, than I am. Since sarcasm confuses you, I'll try not to use it too much with you.

P.S. - You weren't able to answer the typology question, eh?

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Kevin
Are there three stages to "Spirit baptism"? (There are with water baptism.)

John's baptism of "physical" water represented Christ's baptism of "spiritual" water, which could only take place after Jesus' literal death, buriel and resurrection took place. Water baptism was the physical and temporary "outward cleansing" of the spirit baptism which is the spiritual, eternal "inward cleansing." Water baptism could not literally bring salvation and eternal life to no one, but spirit baptism did and continues to do so.

The lesser physical, temporal, type of water baptism given by John was replaced with the greater spirit baptism which is given by Christ.

Romans 6:1-6:
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Key verse to understand that the baptism Paul refers to is nothing but "baptism in holy spirit." After we are saved and born again by grace are we to continue in sin?

(2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

(3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

FIRST STAGE: Baptized with holy spirit INTO Jesus Christ, baptized INTO his death.

Could John's water baptism do this: NO - Jesus Christ had not yet died for our sins with John's water baptism and therefore it was only a type or symbolic of the greater baptism to come by Christ.

(4a) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death....

SECOND STAGE: Buried WITH Christ into his death.

Could John's water baptism do this: NO Christ had not yet died and was therefore not yet buried.

(4b) ...that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

THIRD STAGE: RAISED (RESURRECTED) WITH Christ...THAT WE SHOULD "WALK" IN THE NEWNESS OF LIFE.

Could John's water baptism do this? NO

(5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

(6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Our old man is crucified WITH Christ through the baptism in holy spirit that the body of sin might be "destroyed"...

Could John's water baptism do this. ABSOLUTEL NOT

Water baptism could only REPRESENT the true and greater baptism in the spirit by Jesus Christ.

Now which baptism is the "ONE BAPTISM" spoken about in Ephesians 4:5 - "One Lord, one faith, one baptism?"

JESUS HIMSELF SAID:

Acts 1:5 - For John truly baptized with water; BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

 

[Evangelion]

Kevin - you're more than welcome. It's always a pleasure to do battle with you at my shoulder. :up: I'm simply giving credit where credit is due.

 

[agape]

Evangelion,

Tsk, tsk. Rubbing shoulder to shoulder with someone who knows very little of God's Word and blindly follows and agrees with your unbiblical theory doesn't make it right. Two wrongs don't make a right. So you can give all the :up: you want...won't change the obvious truth of God's Word. It won't change water into being born of the Spirit, which Jesus Christ said must be done in order to enter into the Kingdom of God.

 

[Kevin]

Agape,

Rubbing shoulder to shoulder with someone who knows very little of God's Word and blindly follows and agrees with your unbiblical theory

Careful, Agape, your ignorance is showing. At least I've got the intelligence to know that God actaully expects us to DO something on our part for salvation. I want to see you DO the will of the Father without DOING something Apape. Try it, smart guy.

PS - I'll post a response to your other post later... ran out of time.

 

[Evangelion]

Agape - do you believe that you can lose your salvation?

If not, why not? If so, how?




PS. I was originally impressed by Kevin during my early days at T.O.L., when it became apparent that he knew more about his Bible than most people here - and actually studied it on a regular basis. Since then, my respect for him has risen exponentially. His stalwart defence of baptism is not just a trademark of his church, but a testimony (*gasp* did I just say "testimony"?!! ) to his personal conviction and his studious application to the Word.

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Kevin
Agape,
Careful, Agape, your ignorance is showing. At least I've got the intelligence to know that God actaully expects us to DO something on our part for salvation. I want to see you DO the will of the Father without DOING something Apape. Try it, smart guy.

It's my standing on the truth of God's Word that is displaying your ignorance concerning the scriptures. The Word is actually doing it...not me. You don't use your intelligence to see that God actually expects us to do our part after we are saved and born again of His Spirit. I do the will of the Father as best as I can...not perfect as everyone here is not perfect. I do not do His will in order to get saved, I do His will because I am saved and born again of His Spirit. I do His will because I truly love Him and I want to be well-pleasing in His sight. Besides, you know nothing of my life save God, His Son, Jesus Christ and all those who know me.

Obviously what I posted went right over your head. My suggestion to pray to God to open the eyes of your understanding still goes.

 

[c.moore]

the Spiritual baptism is the main baptism.

Here is also something I copyed from somebody else that study baptism.

Check this out water baptismo people!!!

Christian Baptism
Advanced Information
An ordinance immediately instituted by Christ (Matt. 28: 19, 20), and designed to be observed in the church, like that of the Supper, "till he come." The words "baptize" and "baptism" are simply Greek words transferred into English. This was necessarily done by the translators of the Scriptures, for no literal translation could properly express all that is implied in them. The mode of baptism can in no way be determined from the Greek word rendered "baptize." Baptists say that it means "to dip," and nothing else. That is an incorrect view of the meaning of the word. It means both (1) to dip a thing into an element or liquid, and (2) to put an element or liquid over or on it. Nothing therefore as to the mode of baptism can be concluded from the mere word used.
The word has a wide latitude of meaning, not only in the New Testament, but also in the LXX. Version of the Old Testament, where it is used of the ablutions and baptisms required by the Mosaic law. These were effected by immersion, and by affusion and sprinkling; and the same word, "washings" (Heb. 9:10, 13, 19, 21) or "baptisms," designates them all. In the New Testament there cannot be found a single well-authenticated instance of the occurrence of the word where it necessarily means immersion. Moreover, none of the instances of baptism recorded in the Acts of the Apostles (2:38-41; 8:26-39; 9:17, 18; 22:12-16; 10:44-48; 16:32-34) favours the idea that it was by dipping the person baptized, or by immersion, while in some of them such a mode was highly improbable.
The gospel and its ordinances are designed for the whole world, and it cannot be supposed that a form for the administration of baptism would have been prescribed which would in any place (as in a tropical country or in polar regions) or under any circumstances be inapplicable or injurious or impossible. Baptism and the Lord's Supper are the two symbolical ordinances of the New Testament. The Supper represents the work of Christ, and Baptism the work of the Spirit.


On the other hand, it may be by distortion or exaggeration. Baptism means the almost automatic infusion of a mysterious substance which accomplishes a miraculous but not very obvious transformation. It is thus to be regarded with awe, and fulfilled as an action of absolute necessity to salvation except in very special cases. The true mystery of the Holy Spirit yields before ecclesiastical magic and theological sophistry.
But when baptismal grace is brought into proper relationship to the work of God, we are helped on the way to a fruitful understanding.
First, and above all, we remember that behind the external action there lies the true baptism, which is that of the shed blood of Christ. Baptismal grace is the grace of this true reality of baptism, i.e., of the substitutionary work of Christ, or of Christ himself. Only in this sense can we legitimately speak of grace, but in this sense we can and must.
Second, we remember that behind the external action there lies the inward operation of the Spirit moving the recipient to faith in Christ's work and accomplishing regeneration to the life of faith. Baptismal grace is the grace of this internal work of the Spirit, which cannot be presumed (for the Spirit is sovereign) but which we dare to believe where there is a true calling on the name of the Lord.
Third, the action itself is divinely ordianed as a means of grace, i.e., a means to present Christ and therefore to fulfill the attesting work of the Spirit. It does not do this by the mere performance of the prescribed rite; it does it in and through its meaning. Nor does it do it alone; its function is primarily to seal and confirm, and therefore it does it in conjunction with the spoken and written word. It need not do it at the time of administration; for, under the gracious sovereignty of the Spirit, its fruition may come at a much later date. It does not do it automatically; for, whereas Christ is always present and his grace remains, there are those who respond to neither word nor sacrament and therefore miss the true and inward meaning and power.


Let God give you understanding.
peace

 

[c.moore]

P.S. - You weren't able to answer the typology question, eh?

Read the above post Kevin, the answer is in it.

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
Agape - do you believe that you can lose your salvation?

If not, why not? If so, how?

NO, I do not believe anyone who is saved and born of incorrptible seed can lose their salvation.

Evangelion, it would take me forever to show you scripture upon scripture, so I'll just give you a quick rundown--If you have more specific questions I will be more than glad to assist you.

Once we confess with our mouths the Lord Jesus and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead we are saved and born again of God's Spirit. God's spirit in us is incorruptible seed and it can never be taken away nor destroyed. We are God's seed. God is not a man that He should lie. He promised that all who believe in Christ, will not perish, but have eternal life. He's not an Indian giver. He does not give us a promise such as John 3:16 and then takes it away. Logic and common sense...if we needed a savior in the first place because we could not in ourseves do the works necessary for salvation before we were born again, what makes anyone think works for salvation can be achieved after one is saved and born again? Jesus Christ is our one-time redeemer and savior. He died for our sins once and for all and now those who believe in him have received total remissions of sins...past, present and future. We have already passed from death unto life. Christ is in us and we are joint heirs with him, we have the eternal promise of his inheritance. God FREELY gave this to us through Christ's works and believing for us. That is why our salvation can only come from Christ. It is finished and it is done in Christ. God's love for us is beyond human comprehension but when we see the greatness of what He did in Christ for us by continuing to study God's Word, we will see more of His wonderful, perfect, eternal love for his eternal children.

I can go on and on, however, I need to get for now. Perhaps you can ask your question more specifically and then I can single out scripture references in response.

PS. I was originally impressed by Kevin during my early days at T.O.L., when it became apparent that he knew more about his Bible than most people here - and actually studied it on a regular basis. Since then, my respect for him has risen exponentially. His stalwart defence of baptism is not just a trademark of his church, but a testimony (*gasp* did I just say "testimony"?!! ) to his personal conviction and his studious application to the Word.

Well, that's your own opinion. Actually, I've seen just the opposite. So why don't we just leave it at that.

 

[Evangelion]

So, Agape - you can sin and still be saved?

Neat! Where do I sign up?

 

[JustAChristian]

Are You "The Natural Man"?

Are You "The Natural Man"?

Originally posted by Freak
Kevin,

You stated: It is water baptism in the name of the Lord which allows up to put away our old man of sin and walk in the newness of life with Christ.


I'm glad I haven't bought into your twisted theology. I believe Jesus Himself allows us to put away our old man of sin. I didn't know He had to use water (something He created). That is a violent distortion of the truth of God's Word! Jesus is God. He is able to save without water.

Kevin, did you know Evangelion rejects Jesus being very God. Does this bother you?

1 Corinthians 2:14-16:

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

JustAChristian

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
So, Agape - you can sin and still be saved?

Neat! Where do I sign up?

Yep, you can sin and still be saved. You can sign up at the cross of Jesus Christ.

 

[Kevin]

Agape,

If you're insisting that this faith only effects the physical well-being of a person, you are wrong.
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There you go again...TWISTING MY WORDS.

Shall I define the word "if" for you, or did you miss that? I was trying to understand where you are coming from, and therefore I said "IF you are insisting...", which means, if you are POSSIBLY saying this. I put the word IF in there so I wouldn't be accused of putting words in you mouth. READ!

I SAID THAT THE WORD SAVED IN JAMES IS NOT TALKING ABOUT SOMEONE GETTING SAVED, BORN AGAIN. I SAID THAT THE JAMES IS TALKING TO THOSE WHO ALREADY HAVE FAITH AND THEREFORE, IF YOU REMAIN WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF CHAPTER 2 THE WORD "SAVED" DOES NOT MEAN SAVED IN LIGHT OF ROMANS 10:9.

I already addressed this! Just because he is speaking to brethren makes no difference to the fact that we have to DO something to be saved. He's telling them to be doers of the word, not just hearers. The same goes for people who haven't accepted Christ, there are thing THEY must do as well, they must be DOERS of the word, which includes things like confessing Christ (which you admitted) and being baptized into Him.... things anybody must DO. It's all part of the same faith!

A person accepts Jesus into their hearts because of their faith in Him, and a person also does the commandments of Jesus because of their faith in Him. It's all part of the same faith. Yes, Romans speaks of accepting Jesus to be saved, and James teaches that faith without works are dead. While they are different in that respect, they both fall under the same faith that one has in Christ. There is ONE faith. Therefore the salvation spoken of in James 2 is just as relevant to salvation as Romans.

Yes...and what does he preach about the already faith? He preached that that faith, without works" is dead, unprofitable.

"Already faith"? There's ONE faith, the same faith that a new convert has when accepting Christ is the SAME faith that somebody who has already accepted Christ has. Therefore any mention of salvation pertaining to that faith certainly has an effect upon our salvation.

The word "save" in James 2 certainly has a bearing on salvation, it speaks of the same type of works that condemned the people to hell in Matt 25:41-46.
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Oh baloney. That's your own private interpretation. James makes mention of NO SUCH THING. This is an example of you twisting not only my words around, but God's Word too. Show me where it states what you say it means in James 2.

First of all, it's your opinion that I'm twisting the word of God around. Second, it's YOU that is twisting it. You are trying to convince people that Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved by faith "ALONE". The word "ALONE" does not appear anywhere in that verse. It is you who tampers with the word of God.

Secondly, here's the connection I mentioned about James 2 and Matt. 25:41:

James 2:15-16
15) If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16) and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled." but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

Compare that to Matt. 25:42-43
42) 'for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43) I was stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.

In James 2, James gives the example of not giving food to someone who is hungry, nor clothing someone who is naked. In Matt. 25, they did the same things to Jesus, not feeding Him, nor clothing Him. And what was the consequences? Right here:

Matt. 25:45-46
45) Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, in asmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.
46) And these will go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into eternal life.

They were sent to Hell because the did not do good works unto man, the same works mentioned in James chapter 2.

Does James even mention about hell fire or being damned???.

He doesn't need to. Unlike like some people (you), I'm sure the recipients of James's letter knew full well that a dead faith doesn't save.

You have NO evidence to suggest that James would talk about a faith that does not have a bearing on our salvation.
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It's obvious here that you are the one who has no proof and that you haven't a clue to what James 2 is really talking about and that's because you are reading your own theory into it instead of allowing the Word to interpret itself.

Thanks for confirming the fact that you have no evidence.

Works do not save or get anyone born again.

Agreed.

We put our faith into action and make it work for us and for others. See how simple it all is?

We have to put our faith into action to get saved. We have to OBEY the gospel, not just hear it. You can't OBEY the gospel without DOING something. Those who do not OBEY the gospel will fry in Hell. See how simple that is?

What does it profit a man if he hath faith (already has faith) and not any works (does nothing with his faith), can faith WITHOUT WORKS save him? Can just having faith alone , no works or action taken on that faith "save," "deliver," "keep whole" a brother or sister who is naked and destitute of daily food.

See the difference?

As I pointed out earlier, the people in Matt. 25 were sent to Hell because the did not do works such as these. In terms of salvation, there is no difference. It didn't make any difference to the people spoken of in Matt 25.

Is James saying can faith, without works, save according to Romans 10:9?? NO. Is James saying that faith without works will send someone to hell?? Absolutely NO.

Wrong. Matt. 25:41-46 disproves your assertion.

So HOW CAN YOU SAY WORKS CANNOT SAVE US?

Simple, works by themselves (does that help?) doesn't save us. Faith by itself is a dead faith, and does not saves us. Faith and works saves us by actually allowing us to OBEY the gospel... works plays a role in our salvation. But works in itself doesn't save.

John's baptism of "physical" water represented Christ's baptism of "spiritual" water, which could only take place after Jesus' literal death, buriel and resurrection took place. Water baptism was the physical and temporary "outward cleansing" of the spirit baptism which is the spiritual, eternal "inward cleansing." Water baptism could not literally bring salvation and eternal life to no one, but spirit baptism did and continues to do so.

The lesser physical, temporal, type of water baptism given by John was replaced with the greater spirit baptism which is given by Christ.

Romans 6:1-6:
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Key verse to understand that the baptism Paul refers to is nothing but "baptism in holy spirit." After we are saved and born again by grace are we to continue in sin?

(2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

(3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

FIRST STAGE: Baptized with holy spirit INTO Jesus Christ, baptized INTO his death.

Could John's water baptism do this: NO - Jesus Christ had not yet died for our sins with John's water baptism and therefore it was only a type or symbolic of the greater baptism to come by Christ.

(4a) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death....

SECOND STAGE: Buried WITH Christ into his death.

Could John's water baptism do this: NO Christ had not yet died and was therefore not yet buried.

(4b) ...that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

THIRD STAGE: RAISED (RESURRECTED) WITH Christ...THAT WE SHOULD "WALK" IN THE NEWNESS OF LIFE.

Could John's water baptism do this? NO

(5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

(6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Our old man is crucified WITH Christ through the baptism in holy spirit that the body of sin might be "destroyed"...

Could John's water baptism do this. ABSOLUTEL NOT

Water baptism could only REPRESENT the true and greater baptism in the spirit by Jesus Christ.

Now which baptism is the "ONE BAPTISM" spoken about in Ephesians 4:5 - "One Lord, one faith, one baptism?"

I'm sorry you had to spend so much time typing that up, but why are you referring to John's baptism? I've been saying that being baptized in the name of the Lord (Jesus's baptism) is what saves. They are different baptisms. The baptism of the Lord is done with water (Acts 10:47-48), just as John's baptism is done with water.

I also failed to see, anywhere in that post, how spiritual baptism meets the criteria for representing the death, burial, and resurrection of a believer. Water baptism in the name of the Lord meets all that criteria, and that's what the apostles practiced.

Now which baptism is the "ONE BAPTISM" spoken about in Ephesians 4:5 - "One Lord, one faith, one baptism?"

The same baptism that was practiced by the apostles - the baptism in the name of the Lord, which uses water.

Acts 1:5 - For John truly baptized with water; BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Yeah... and they were. You're point?

I do the will of the Father as best as I can...not perfect as everyone here is not perfect.

Amen to that.

I do not do His will in order to get saved,

The fact is that only the people who DO the will of the Father will be saved (Matt. 7:21). That right there shows that man HAS to DO something to be saved. It is your pride that blinds you from realizing this simple point.