The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[JustAChristian]

Baptism Replacing Circumcism.

Baptism Replacing Circumcism.

Originally posted by drbrumley
Some Christians today, who ascribe to the "Covenant Theology" point of view, also believe water baptism is a New Testament ordinance which replaced the Old Testament sign of circumcision Again, though, there is not one shred of scripture anywhere that would even suggest such an idea. Instead, this whole theory is proved to be false by the fact that only males were circumcised under the Old Testament. The churches which practice water baptism today, however, baptize both men and women alike. Consequently, if water baptism is a replacement for circumcision, then these churches have no business baptizing their female converts. Another reason water baptism could not have replaced circumcision is because Peter and the other apostles continued to separate themselves from uncircumcised Gentiles (who were considered to be unclean) even as late as Acts chapter 10, long after the Lord's resurrection.

I do not ascribe to this theory. Baptism has nothing to do with circumcism. Circumcism was done away with the fulfilment of the Mosaic Law. Baptism was commissioned by Christ as the means for union with God and man. When a candidate is baptized into Christ they put on Christ (Gal. 3:27). There is no other prescribed means of union with God today except through obedience to this command (John 3:3-5).

JustAChristian

 

[c.moore]

Carri
Sence you use the obedience bible scriptures to obey unto your salvation, do you obey because it is an order, or command,
or do you obey because you love the Lord????

I obey because of the first love to Jesus only, and not to try to prove my obedience to qualify, salvation like it looks like you are working for in your obeying.

Do you obey according to Heb5:9 like A soldier does in the marines, or do you obey because you are A daughter, and Jesus is your loving father, and you obey because the father is in you, and the Father know how to obey???????

If you do obey< like a soldier , then what rank do you think you are at,Captain??????

1Jo:4:12: No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jo:4:13: Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

Because we have His Spirit in us we can obey,and God love is perfect in us

Carri you talk alot about obeying , but please get into the love that makes us perfect before God.
remember that God is love.

We need more from jesus and less from us .

I wish you would get the revelation of IT IS FINISHED .

I ask you how people are saved in your group and I still couldn`t get an answer, I guess there is no testimonys in your group.
Well" let me ask how many has found thier first love in Christ???


peace

 

[Evangelion]

Amen, J.A.C.! :up:

 

[Evangelion]

c.moore - who says that the truth is determined by "testimonies"?

This is something that I find really weird about the American Evangelical movement - everybody keeps talking about testimonies, as if the truth of their doctrines can be proved by the sheer weight of testimonies in their favour.

To me, this sounds really cheap. It's as if somebody's trying to sell me their belief system, just like people do on TV.

("Hey - you've got to believe this, man! It's the real Christianity! I know, because I've tried it for myself - and look what it did for me! It can do the same for you, too!")

Yeah, right...

 

[Evangelion]

Hope of Glory - you wrote this:

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mark 7:7 (KJV)
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. Mark 7:8 (KJV)

Are you taking this as a reference to the Law of Moses?

I need some clarification right away, please.

 

[HopeofGlory]

Agape,

My replies are bold.

Originally posted by agape

I said:
In this record, Philip, (a born-again believer), baptized the eunuch with water at the time of the eunuch's acceptance of Christ. Why would Philip baptize the eunuch with water when water baptism was totally unnecessary for salvation? Simply because the eunuch asked him to!

Your Reply:
Phillip water baptized the eunuch becaused he believed the gospel as John the Baptist preached it, as did Peter.

Answer:
Did Philip preach John the baptist?...or...Christ?

Phillip preached Christ as John the Baptist did...Believe Jesus is the Christ and be water batized for the remission of sins.

Acts 8:31,32:
And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

(32) The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth

It's obvious that Philip taught the eunuch all that Jesus did and accomplished as the Messiah for the transgression of sin. It does not state anywhere that the eunuch did not believe. Also, we need to remember that God brought Philip to the eunuch by way of His angel, a messenger. I doubt He would have done so if He knew the eunuch would just waste his time.

Phillip did not teach the eunuch that the death of Christ was for remission of sins and no where will you find apostles of the circumcision teaching that Christ died for their sins before Paul delivered the gospel of grace without works. Christ instructed the apostles in the gospel of the kingdom yet He told them to not go unto the Gentiles who were without the LAW. Your doubting proves nothing.

Verse 36--And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

The eunuch, after being taught by Philip the gospel of the good news of salvation through Christ, saw the water and knowing that John had baptized with water was asking Philip if there would be anything to hinder him from being water baptized. If he had to ask Philip this question in the first place, it is obvious that Philip did NOT teach him that he had to be water baptized.

He asked Philip if there would be anything to prevent him...Philip did not tell him to get water baptized. However, I come to find out there is no answer to this question by Philip recorded in the oldest Greek texts [verse 37 was added to some translations]

They both understood the message of a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins as the Baptist and Peter preached it. There was no need for Phillip to instruct the eunuch being it was the eunuch that requested water baptism. It is clear that Phillip in agreement water baptized the eunuch.

The eunuch had freedom of will. If the eunuch desired to be water baptized, even though Philip by this time would have taught him concerning the day of Pentecost and the true current baptism in holy spirit, then that was his own decision.

Phillip would not have agreed with the eunuch if Phillip believed water baptism was obsolete but would have instructed him in Spirit baptism. Your reasoning is flawed because it is based on a belief that water baptism did not occur at Pentecost. Peters gospel is not the same as Paul's being it was Paul that received the mysteries and Paul first taught remission of sins by faith in the blood of Christ. We must believe the new testament message for remission to be born again.

I said:
It is not a sin to be baptized with water. It is simply not necessary.

Your reply: Is it a sin to believe water baptism is for remission of sins?

No, because John the Baptist taught that it "was" for the remission of sins. However, it was temporary in that it represented the greater and true spiritual baptism to come through Christ.

I believe that teaching one must also be baptized with water in order to be truly saved is wrong because it is a false teaching. It is not found in the scriptures. Also, it takes away from the full and complete salvation that only Jesus Christ could accomplish for mankind, through the shedding of his pure sinless blood. Water baptism could not accomplish this and that is why we needed Jesus Christ as our only means for redemption and salvation.

You believe water baptism takes away from complete salvation if taught that it is for remission of sins yet that is what the Baptist taught. How is it then that you believe Phillip agreed to water baptize the eunuch and not instruct him in the truth of the greater baptism? It's quite simple, Phillip believed as did Peter at Pentecost that water baptism was for the remission of sins.

I agree 100% with the last part of your statement and it is a shame so few have this knowledge. If you believe Christ is our "only means for redemption" then you are eternally secure by His righteousness.

Baptism with water--a person has water put on him or is immersed with physical water for a certain period of time, and then the person comes out from the water and dries off so that he no longer has physical water on him anymore!

Baptism in holy spirit--a person is immersed or surrounded in holy spirit-life and does NOT come out from it because it is the seed of God Himself given to that person by means of the Lord Jesus Christ. The gift of holy spirit cannot "dry-off" nor can it be re-done at some later '"revival" because once received it remains received!

The gift of the Holy Ghost is not the same as being baptized by the Spirit. The power that was received at Pentecost was temporary as was their baptism in water for remission. Spirit baptism accompanies belief in the spirit words of the new testament. The doctrine of the apostles at Pentecost is not for the body of Christ and if you receive it you will not be able to rightly divide the word of truth. The truth is that at Pentecost the apostles WATER baptized all believers. That is why Peter could say...And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:32 (KJV). Obey in water baptism for forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). So you can see they first had to obey then they received the gift of the Holy Ghost. The two are not the same. We are saved by the obedience of One (Rom. 5:19) so that the gift may be free (not by works of righteousness..Titus 3:5).


In Christ
Craig

 

[HopeofGlory]

Evangelion

Originally posted by Evangelion
Hope of Glory - you wrote this:



Are you taking this as a reference to the Law of Moses?

I need some clarification right away, please.

No, Jesus is referring to the traditions of men as they interpreted it from the torah. Jews by tradition water baptized as a means of purification. Judaism is without it's sacrificial system and it depends on water baptism for remission yet the law clearly teaches without the shedding of blood there is no remission.

In Christ
Craig

 

[Apollos]

A person "enters" Chirst via water baptism...

A person "enters" Chirst via water baptism...

Freak –

In reference to how one “ENTERS” Christ, I checked the passage you gave – which was Ephesians 2:8-9.

This passage says NOTHING about how one “enters” Christ – the passage is not on the subject. Perhaps this is a typo – so please try again. This must be a mistake.

I also asked you to submit a passage that demonstrates that water baptism is a “symbol” and/or that it is a “witness”.

You reply was indeed puzzling. You told me to “look up the word”. Surely as many times as you have offered this information you must have scriptures. Please offer them now !!

Please take notice that Edgar noticed this also and is asking for SCRIPTURES !!

Got any??

 

[Apollos]

The HS tells all to be water baptized through the word...

The HS tells all to be water baptized through the word...

Craig –

Any attempt to claim that 1 Corinthians 12:13 is speaking of anything other than water baptism is to contradict and deny what scriptures plainly teach about the practice and preaching of Paul.

For by one Spirit (the direction of the Spirit) we are baptized (water) into the one body – the church… !!!

Through the word today the Spirit wants all to be baptized INTO Christ – into the church !!! This is accomplished through the means God selected - water baptism !!

 

[Evangelion]

H.O.G. -

No, Jesus is referring to the traditions of men as they interpreted it from the torah.

Thanks. I agree.

Jews by tradition water baptized as a means of purification.

No they didn't. They practiced ritual washing, not full immersion.

Judaism is without it's sacrificial system and it depends on water baptism for remission

I take it you're referring to post-diaspora Judaism here? Well, FYI, post-diaspora Judaism does not "depend on water baptism for remission." It never did, and it never will.

yet the law clearly teaches without the shedding of blood there is no remission.

Agreed. And this was true of the Old Covenant - not the new.

 

[agape]

Originally posted by HopeofGlory
Agape,

Phillip preached Christ as John the Baptist did...Believe Jesus is the Christ and be water batized for the remission of sins.

There is much more to what you just stated.

Acts 19:3-6: And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

(4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

(5) When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

(6) And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

They did not know that the gift of holy spirit had been made available by God and the Lord Jesus Christ until Paul asked them such a question. They already knew about John so they would have known that at some point baptism with holy spirit would be made available, and they may also have known many things about Jesus, but they did not know that Jesus is now the resurrected Christ and what was fully made available to mankind because they had not been taught it.

Paul continues by teaching them that: "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, which is what God instructed John to do in order to help people to change their minds for the purpose of being prepared and ready to believe the person coming after himself, and that person is Jesus!" As soon as they heard what Paul said they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. They believed what Paul told them which was God's Word which John the baptist, had previously "foretold." They received the gift of holy spirit within them by the grace of God at the moment they believed on Jesus, the Christ, the one whom John had foretold about and whom Paul taught is he. Now they knew and believed that this Jesus is that one, the Messiah, the redeemer, the savior.

Philip preached Christ in this same matter as he had been taught. The eunuch believed that Jesus Christ died for his sins and that God raised him from the dead was saved and born again. The Word does not tell us why the eunuch wanted to be water baptized; however, the Word does not state that Philip instructed him to be water baptized. It makes it clear that it was the eunuch's decision alone.

gift of the Holy Ghost is not the same as being baptized by the Spirit.

Scripture references please.

The power that was received at Pentecost was temporary as was their baptism in water for remission.

Scripture references please.

Spirit baptism accompanies belief in the spirit words of the new testament.

Explain "spirit words" please.

The doctrine of the apostles at Pentecost is not for the body of Christ

Scripture reference please.

and if you receive it you will not be able to rightly divide the word of truth.

?? What are you talking about??

The truth is that at Pentecost the apostles WATER baptized all believers.

Scripture reference please.

That is why Peter could say...And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:32 (KJV). Obey in water baptism for forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). So you can see they first had to obey then they received the gift of the Holy Ghost. The two are not the same. We are saved by the obedience of One (Rom. 5:19) so that the gift may be free (not by works of righteousness..Titus 3:5).

I think you got your scriptures all mixed up and you are again privately interpreting them to suit your fancy.

Acts 5:29-32:
Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

(30) The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

(31) Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

(32) And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

God gave the gift of holy spirit to those who obey God...not men. It is NOT different from Acts 2:38.

You said "The truth is that at Pentecost the apostles WATER baptized all believers and that is why Peter could say...And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.. Are you writing your very own bible? WHERE'S THE WATER??? It's NOT THE TRUTH...as you say...IT"S A LIE.

Acts 2:36-38:
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

(37) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their hearts, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

When the Judeans heard the miracle of the Galileans' speaking with tongues "the wonderul works of God," they had been amazed and questioned "What meaneth this?" Now under the powerful preaching of Peter (stated in the previous verses), they were convicted of their guilt of having crucified Jesus and cried out, "What shall we do?"

(38) Then Peter said unto them Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for remissions of sins AND ye shall receive [lambano - receive into manifestations] the gift of [from] the Holy Ghost.

They were "spirit baptized" and they received "the gift of holy spirit" into manifestations and they spoke with tongues. They received the SAME as in Acts 5, which is the gift of holy spirit because they believed in the name of Jesus Christ. They were saved and born again of God's Spirit, not by their own righteousness or works as you correctly stated, nor were they saved by the works of "water baptism."

AGAIN--WHERE'S THE WATER??

 

[Edgar Caiña]

Re: A person "enters" Chirst via water baptism...

Re: A person "enters" Chirst via water baptism...

Originally posted by Apollos

Please take notice that Edgar noticed this also and is asking for SCRIPTURES !!

Got any??

Yes, Im asking for a scripture referrence regarding water baptism as a command of Christ for a witness or public profession of faith. But it doesn't mean i believe water baptism saves. Back then, during the the ministries of John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and the 12 apostles (Judas out, Mathias in) until the Body of Christ was established by God through Paul, water baptism was a requirement for salvation. But not so today. It's clear in Ephesians 2:8,9 that we are saved by grace through faith.

I was asking for scripture referrences for the belief that water baptism is a command of Christ for us today for the purpose of public profession of faith. Unfortunately, no scriptures for that, meaning water baptism is not really for us today. If somebody will inisist that water baptism is still for us today, then he must also believe that it is a requirement for salvation. You cannot have one without the other as per biblical truth.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Evangelion
c.moore - who says that the truth is determined by "testimonies"?

This is something that I find really weird about the American Evangelical movement - everybody keeps talking about testimonies, as if the truth of their doctrines can be proved by the sheer weight of testimonies in their favour.

To me, this sounds really cheap. It's as if somebody's trying to sell me their belief system, just like people do on TV.

("Hey - you've got to believe this, man! It's the real Christianity! I know, because I've tried it for myself - and look what it did for me! It can do the same for you, too!")

Yeah, right...

Quote c.moore

Jesus even knew that testimonys will draw attention ,and many would come to see for themselve, if the tetimony is true, and what made the testimony true.
I have told a muslim who had a son who had legs problems, about a testimony of a evangelist who has a gift of healing , and you can watch legs grow longer, and he can make pain go through having great faith in the Word of God.
So the testimony drew them to the service where they seen this with thier own eyes, and seen the healing on thier son as well , and turn from muslims to believers in Chrsit Jesus as thier God.
by the way the Evangelist who can make body part grow on is called Billy Smith ministrys, you can look him up on your search in the internet and read the miracles tetimonys yourselve, or go too one of his meeting and witness it on your own.

M'r:1:43: And he straitly charged him, and forthwith sent him away;
M'r:1:44: And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
M'r:1:45: But he went out, and began to publish it much, and to blaze abroad the matter, insomuch that Jesus could no more openly enter into the city, but was without in desert places: and they came to him from every quarter.

Joh:3:32: And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
Joh:3:33: He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
Joh:3:34: For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

When you want to buy a car, wouldn`t you want the sales man to tell you all about the new car?????

Also before buying the car you will won`t to try it out , and look at the motor yourselve so you can testify that the car is good news or bad news.

Some people would rather get there information about thier new car from somebody that doesn´`t have a car and never drove , but still believe the person because they just say thier opinion.
What a same.
At least try out the car for yourself, and go to the dealer or the company for information.

peace

 

[JustAChristian]

The Apostles Taught The Same Gospel.

The Apostles Taught The Same Gospel.

Originally posted by HopeofGlory
Evangelion



No, Jesus is referring to the traditions of men as they interpreted it from the torah. Jews by tradition water baptized as a means of purification. Judaism is without it's sacrificial system and it depends on water baptism for remission yet the law clearly teaches without the shedding of blood there is no remission.

In Christ
Craig

Craig,
You have never discredited my statement which I have made numerous times that the apostles taught the same gospel and not two separate messages.

Paul wrote the Roman church;

Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

The Jew first received the gospel of Christ's salvation at Pentecost and later the apostles went into all the world with the same message(Matthew 28:18-20; Col. 1:23). Paul lets us know that each of the apostles received the same message:

"...Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit" (Eph 3:5).

Peter reminds the church of the univeral need to obey the apostles, saying:

"That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour" (2 Peter 3:2).

Jude reminded the universal church that each member must heed the message of the apostles. Not just one, but all saying:

"But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Jude 1:17).

So before you continue to teach this false doctrine of your about Paul having a separate message for the Gentiles. Discredit my conclusion.

JustAChristian

 

[Evangelion]

c.moore - so you are using the "testimonials" method to sell Christianity!

That's outrageous!

 

[drbrumley]

J.A.C.,

This is a repost on another thread I gave. Maybe you missed it.I want to make this as clear as I can.

It appears that there have been overstatements on both sides of this issue. On the one hand, it is contended dogmatically that there is but one Gospel in the Bible, and on the other hand dispensationalists argue just as dogmatically that there are several gospels in the Bible. The misunderstanding appears to arise largely from the use of the word GOSPEL. Most use the word gospel as the equivalent of how to be saved. They argue, and rightly so, that no one has been saved by his own works; that salvation in every dispensation has been by God's grace, but they contend that dispensationalists argue for salvation by works for those in a former dispensation because they say there is more than one gospel. This is simply a conclusion drawn by anti-dispensationalists which is contrary to the posiitive statements of dispensationalists. Practically all dispensationalists believe that salvation in every dispensation has been based upon faith in the revealed Word of God, but since they believe that the Bible presents a progressive revelation they must of necessity contend that men in former generations did not possess the totality of revelation which is contained in the New Testament epistles. Therefore, there has been a change from time to time in the content of the message. which was the object of faith.

The content of the gospel of the kingdom which was preached by the apostles during the earthly ministry of Christ was completely devoid of the teaching that Christ would die for the sins of the world, be buried, and rise again the third day. And yet that is the heart of gospel preaching in this dispensation. And even more evident is the fact that in Old Testament times faith demanded that men bring animal sacrifices, a practice which is expressly forbidden in God's message for today. But this does not mean that the worshipper understood that the animal sacrifices was a type of the coming Redeemer and that he was actually excercising faith in a crucified and resurrected Savior. God knew and we know today that the death of Christ was the actual basis of salvation in EVERY dispensation (Rom 3:25), even though the worshipper did not understand all that was involved in the councels of God.

Part 2 coming

 

[drbrumley]

Evan,

So Christians can't have testimonies. How absurd is that?

 

[HopeofGlory]

Evangelion,


I said:
yet the law clearly teaches without the shedding of blood there is no remission.

You responded:
Agreed. And this was true of the Old Covenant - not the new.

My reply:
Explain to us how the new testament is not dependent
on the shedding of blood. How does one receive remission without the shed blood of Christ?

In Christ
Craig

 

[HopeofGlory]

JustaChristian,

I and others have provided multiple scriptures clearly explaining the difference between Paul's gospel of faith without works and Peter's gospel of faith plus works yet you refuse to believe. The gospel of grace is not Acts 2:38! The shed blood of Christ is not there as is the Jewish Pentecostal experience. I beleive in the new testament truth first delivered by Paul that Christ died for my sins and through faith in His shed blood I receive remission. Show us where this message was delivered at Pentecost. Without faith in the shed blood of Christ there is no remission unless you believe Evangelion.



drbrumley,

Great post! Truth is worth defending.

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Eph. 3:9 (KJV)
To the intent that NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Eph. 3:10 (KJV)
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: Eph. 3:11 (KJV)
In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. Eph. 3:12 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

 

[HopeofGlory]

Agape,

Philip preached Christ in this same matter as he had been taught. The eunuch believed that Jesus Christ died for his sins and that God raised him from the dead was saved and born again.

This you must prove! Where is the scripture that tells us the eunuch knew that Christ died for his sins?

In Christ
Craig