The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
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HopeofGlory
New member
The words of eternal life!
The words of eternal life!
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:48 (KJV)
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. John 12:49 (KJV)
These words of Jesus must be understood and believed. The devils proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God so this tells us there is more to the message of eternal life.
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? Matt. 8:29 (KJV)
Jesus revealed the gospel to the apostles but we must ask the question, did they receive and believe His words? Jesus came to give all that believe His words eternal life.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: John 10:27 (KJV)
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:28 (KJV)
Jesus said...Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 (KJV) This was not to be taken naturally but was to be received spiritually. Jesus explains it with these words...It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life John 6:63 (KJV).
There is no profit in anything that the flesh can accomplish and anything that man can perform is a work of the flesh. The words Jesus spoke of the “new” testament (Matt. 26:28) in His blood are spirit and it is by believing in these words that we profit eternal life. Salvation is the work of God that many deny when they say you must obey in water baptism. They do not comprehend "the flesh profiteth nothing". Dead sinners can hear the words of the new testament (Matt. 26:28) but remain dead until they believe the words of the Son of God. It is the personal word of Christ that commands life and that life is eternal. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals the spoken words of Christ, and imparts spiritual life when those words are believed.
The apostles did not receive theses words of Jesus but said....This is an hard saying; who can hear it John 6:60 (KJV).
The sower soweth the word. Mark 4:14 (KJV)
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. Mark 4:15 (KJV)
After offering the new testament for remission of sins Jesus said to Peter..... Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: Luke 22:31 (KJV)
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Luke 22:32 (KJV)
The new testament (Matt. 26:28) was not revealed at Pentecost and the preaching was completely void of the message that Christ died for their sins. Paul revealed this truth after Pentecost through revelations received from Jesus Christ.
Being justified freely (Not by obeying in water baptism) by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom. 3:24 (KJV)
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins (Not water baptism for remission) that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26 (KJV)
Paul was the first man to teach that the blood of Christ was shed for remission of sins and that is why Paul could say.......For Christ sent me not to (water) baptize (for remission of sins), but to preach the gospel (words of Christ).... 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
The words of eternal life!
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:48 (KJV)
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. John 12:49 (KJV)
These words of Jesus must be understood and believed. The devils proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God so this tells us there is more to the message of eternal life.
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? Matt. 8:29 (KJV)
Jesus revealed the gospel to the apostles but we must ask the question, did they receive and believe His words? Jesus came to give all that believe His words eternal life.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: John 10:27 (KJV)
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:28 (KJV)
Jesus said...Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 (KJV) This was not to be taken naturally but was to be received spiritually. Jesus explains it with these words...It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life John 6:63 (KJV).
There is no profit in anything that the flesh can accomplish and anything that man can perform is a work of the flesh. The words Jesus spoke of the “new” testament (Matt. 26:28) in His blood are spirit and it is by believing in these words that we profit eternal life. Salvation is the work of God that many deny when they say you must obey in water baptism. They do not comprehend "the flesh profiteth nothing". Dead sinners can hear the words of the new testament (Matt. 26:28) but remain dead until they believe the words of the Son of God. It is the personal word of Christ that commands life and that life is eternal. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals the spoken words of Christ, and imparts spiritual life when those words are believed.
The apostles did not receive theses words of Jesus but said....This is an hard saying; who can hear it John 6:60 (KJV).
The sower soweth the word. Mark 4:14 (KJV)
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. Mark 4:15 (KJV)
After offering the new testament for remission of sins Jesus said to Peter..... Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: Luke 22:31 (KJV)
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Luke 22:32 (KJV)
The new testament (Matt. 26:28) was not revealed at Pentecost and the preaching was completely void of the message that Christ died for their sins. Paul revealed this truth after Pentecost through revelations received from Jesus Christ.
Being justified freely (Not by obeying in water baptism) by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom. 3:24 (KJV)
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins (Not water baptism for remission) that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26 (KJV)
Paul was the first man to teach that the blood of Christ was shed for remission of sins and that is why Paul could say.......For Christ sent me not to (water) baptize (for remission of sins), but to preach the gospel (words of Christ).... 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
servantofChrist
New member
HopeofGlory, you contradicted yourself, observe:
You said to JustAChristian, with regard to his quotation of Mk. 16:16, "Where is the water in this verse? It is not there!!!!"
Then you turned right around and did exactly the same thing! Watch:
You quoted 1 Cor. 1:17 in this manner:
"For Christ sent (after the cross) me not to (water) baptize, but to preach the gospel.... 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)"
You added "water" to the verse when it is not mentioned in the verse at all!
Secondly, you distorted the teaching of Matt. 28:19 (as you do countless other verses) by saying:
"It is clear the apostles are being instructed to teach and the teaching of the word will baptize them."
Jesus gave His apostles 3 commands to carry out in Matt:18:19... (1) make disciples (2) baptizing them (3) teaching them to obey everything He had commanded [and He had just commanded baptism!]. He did NOT "clearly" say at all, as you assert, that the baptism here would come from, and be done by, the word that they taught. Again, you contradict yourself by accusing JustAChristian and others of adding "water" to baptism passages, but then you come along and add into Matt. 28:19 that Jesus is "clearly" saying that the baptizing He is speaking of is being done by/with the "word."
Matt. 28:19 states no such thing, let alone "clearly"! That is YOUR addition to the words of the Lord, sir!
As concerning Paul in 1 Cor. 1:17. You said, "Why would Christ send Paul NOT to water baptize if the GREAT COMMISSION was... You apostles go water baptize?"
If you would read the ENTIRE contextual setting around v. 17 - vv. 10-17 - instead of extracting just the one verse (17) and lifting it from its context, then you could understand the meaning of Paul's words. And you would also see that they do NOT conflict at all with Jesus' command to the apostles to go and be "baptizing" people, to mean baptizing them in WATER .
Paul was NOT saying in this verse that he did not believe baptism is not baptism in water, or that baptism in water is not necessary in order to be saved. If you keep his words in the context in which they were delivered you will see that his words meant that baptizing people was not Paul's PRIMARY work in carrying out the Lord's will, rather, preaching the gospel and planting the Lord's church from place to place was.
I have a question for you, HopeofGlory, concerning this verse:
You place such emphasis on just the words of Paul that say that Christ did not send him to baptize... but Paul said that he did baptize some of those there in Corinth. If, as you say, the baptism of Christ is not water baptism but "Spirit baptism" (your words), then how is it that of all those Paul preached the word to, he said, "I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius...Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanus. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other"?
If you are correct, that the baptism the N. T. speaks of is "Spirit baptism," and that baptism comes from preaching the word, then how is it that of all those Paul preached the word to, he specifically said himself that he only baptized these few individuals? That would mean that of all the people in the great city of Corinth, he only preached the word to these few individuals.
This is the necessary consequence of your view of baptism , which, again, shows that your view is completely contrary to the teaching of God's word.
You said to JustAChristian, with regard to his quotation of Mk. 16:16, "Where is the water in this verse? It is not there!!!!"
Then you turned right around and did exactly the same thing! Watch:
You quoted 1 Cor. 1:17 in this manner:
"For Christ sent (after the cross) me not to (water) baptize, but to preach the gospel.... 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)"
You added "water" to the verse when it is not mentioned in the verse at all!
Secondly, you distorted the teaching of Matt. 28:19 (as you do countless other verses) by saying:
"It is clear the apostles are being instructed to teach and the teaching of the word will baptize them."
Jesus gave His apostles 3 commands to carry out in Matt:18:19... (1) make disciples (2) baptizing them (3) teaching them to obey everything He had commanded [and He had just commanded baptism!]. He did NOT "clearly" say at all, as you assert, that the baptism here would come from, and be done by, the word that they taught. Again, you contradict yourself by accusing JustAChristian and others of adding "water" to baptism passages, but then you come along and add into Matt. 28:19 that Jesus is "clearly" saying that the baptizing He is speaking of is being done by/with the "word."
Matt. 28:19 states no such thing, let alone "clearly"! That is YOUR addition to the words of the Lord, sir!
As concerning Paul in 1 Cor. 1:17. You said, "Why would Christ send Paul NOT to water baptize if the GREAT COMMISSION was... You apostles go water baptize?"
If you would read the ENTIRE contextual setting around v. 17 - vv. 10-17 - instead of extracting just the one verse (17) and lifting it from its context, then you could understand the meaning of Paul's words. And you would also see that they do NOT conflict at all with Jesus' command to the apostles to go and be "baptizing" people, to mean baptizing them in WATER .
Paul was NOT saying in this verse that he did not believe baptism is not baptism in water, or that baptism in water is not necessary in order to be saved. If you keep his words in the context in which they were delivered you will see that his words meant that baptizing people was not Paul's PRIMARY work in carrying out the Lord's will, rather, preaching the gospel and planting the Lord's church from place to place was.
I have a question for you, HopeofGlory, concerning this verse:
You place such emphasis on just the words of Paul that say that Christ did not send him to baptize... but Paul said that he did baptize some of those there in Corinth. If, as you say, the baptism of Christ is not water baptism but "Spirit baptism" (your words), then how is it that of all those Paul preached the word to, he said, "I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius...Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanus. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other"?
If you are correct, that the baptism the N. T. speaks of is "Spirit baptism," and that baptism comes from preaching the word, then how is it that of all those Paul preached the word to, he specifically said himself that he only baptized these few individuals? That would mean that of all the people in the great city of Corinth, he only preached the word to these few individuals.
This is the necessary consequence of your view of baptism , which, again, shows that your view is completely contrary to the teaching of God's word.
servantofChrist
New member
Just another point about being saved and Holy Spirit baptism:
1 Pet. 3:21 says, "Baptism now saves you" (NASB). Those who contend that water baptism does NOT save, believe that the baptism that DOES save is Holy Spirit baptism.
But here is the inescapable conclusion resulting from this view:
Acts 2:1-4 and Acts 10: 44-48 show that when individuals received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit "fell upon" them at the time, place, and circumstance of GOD'S choosing! It was a completely one-way affair. In both of these examples of persons receiving Holy Spirit baptism, those who received it had to WAIT for it to occur and were taken completely by surprise at its occurrence - not even knowing IF, let alone WHEN, the Holy Spirit would fall upon them
We do NOT see, in these examples, people being given a command to obey and then their being baptized with the Holy Spirit in doing so. It was ENTIRELY a GOD-DIRECTED operation.
Therefore, if the baptism that saves us is, as so many contend, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and not water baptism, then GOD HIMSELF is responsible for EVERYONE'S salvation - for HE ALONE directs Holy Spirit baptism!
But, in contrast to this, on the day of Pentecost, in Acts 2, at the conclusion of the first gospel sermon ever delivered, those people there were given a two-part COMMAND by the Holy Spirit TO OBEY which He expressly stated was "for the forgiveness of your sins." The first command was to "Repent" and the second command - that they were to obey - was to "be baptized, every one of you...."
Further, in v. 41, it says that "all who accepted his word were baptized." The opposite of this is equally true: all who were NOT baptized did NOT accept his word!
1 Pet. 3:21 says, "Baptism now saves you" (NASB). Those who contend that water baptism does NOT save, believe that the baptism that DOES save is Holy Spirit baptism.
But here is the inescapable conclusion resulting from this view:
Acts 2:1-4 and Acts 10: 44-48 show that when individuals received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit "fell upon" them at the time, place, and circumstance of GOD'S choosing! It was a completely one-way affair. In both of these examples of persons receiving Holy Spirit baptism, those who received it had to WAIT for it to occur and were taken completely by surprise at its occurrence - not even knowing IF, let alone WHEN, the Holy Spirit would fall upon them
We do NOT see, in these examples, people being given a command to obey and then their being baptized with the Holy Spirit in doing so. It was ENTIRELY a GOD-DIRECTED operation.
Therefore, if the baptism that saves us is, as so many contend, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and not water baptism, then GOD HIMSELF is responsible for EVERYONE'S salvation - for HE ALONE directs Holy Spirit baptism!
But, in contrast to this, on the day of Pentecost, in Acts 2, at the conclusion of the first gospel sermon ever delivered, those people there were given a two-part COMMAND by the Holy Spirit TO OBEY which He expressly stated was "for the forgiveness of your sins." The first command was to "Repent" and the second command - that they were to obey - was to "be baptized, every one of you...."
Further, in v. 41, it says that "all who accepted his word were baptized." The opposite of this is equally true: all who were NOT baptized did NOT accept his word!
Why so much debate about the attributes of the respective baptisms? Which side does a coin have, heads or tails?
Consider how Judas died because of transgression, and it was only when Peter realised that Judas had played an important role, and refilled the position with Matthias, that the holy spirit was received (Ac 1). So the ministry had to undergo a process of death before it could enter life.
In the gospel of John, Christ states that he is going away, and we will seek him, and will die in our sins, for where he is going we cannot come (Jn 8.21). However, we shall follow him afterward (Jn 13.36).
So there is a description of going through a death in order to attain life. Indeed, "he who believes in me, though he may die, he shall live" (Jn 11.25).
Dying in order to have live? Sounds about as crazy as going through a baptism of death in order to receive baptism in the holy spirit! And who was the One who put us through this whole process?
Consider how Judas died because of transgression, and it was only when Peter realised that Judas had played an important role, and refilled the position with Matthias, that the holy spirit was received (Ac 1). So the ministry had to undergo a process of death before it could enter life.
In the gospel of John, Christ states that he is going away, and we will seek him, and will die in our sins, for where he is going we cannot come (Jn 8.21). However, we shall follow him afterward (Jn 13.36).
So there is a description of going through a death in order to attain life. Indeed, "he who believes in me, though he may die, he shall live" (Jn 11.25).
Dying in order to have live? Sounds about as crazy as going through a baptism of death in order to receive baptism in the holy spirit! And who was the One who put us through this whole process?
HopeofGlory
New member
servantofChrist,
My replies are bold
You said to JustAChristian, with regard to his quotation of Mk. 16:16, "Where is the water in this verse? It is not there!!!!"
Well, where is it? Show me within the context of the last words of Christ where the water is.
Then you turned right around and did exactly the same thing! Watch:
You quoted 1 Cor. 1:17 in this manner:
"For Christ sent (after the cross) me not to (water) baptize, but to preach the gospel.... 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)"
You added "water" to the verse when it is not mentioned in the verse at all!
Do you disagree That Paul is referring to water baptism?
Secondly, you distorted the teaching of Matt. 28:19 (as you do countless other verses) by saying:
"It is clear the apostles are being instructed to teach and the teaching of the word will baptize them."
The context is teaching! Unless you would have us believe the eleven were commanded to personally water baptize "all nations".
Jesus gave His apostles 3 commands to carry out in Matt:18:19... (1) make disciples (2) baptizing them (3) teaching them to obey everything He had commanded [and He had just commanded baptism!]. He did NOT "clearly" say at all, as you assert, that the baptism here would come from, and be done by, the word that they taught. Again, you contradict yourself by accusing JustAChristian and others of adding "water" to baptism passages, but then you come along and add into Matt. 28:19 that Jesus is "clearly" saying that the baptizing He is speaking of is being done by/with the "word."
1-Making disciples by the process of teaching.
2-You can't be serious, the eleven, all nations????
3-Teaching, Yes!
Again, Jesus never command the disciples to "water" baptize anyone and He surely did not command the eleven to water baptize "all nations"!
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
But there are "some of you that believe not". For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64 (KJV)
These words are in reference to the new testament for remission of sins and this testament superceded water baptism for remission of sins. We no more need two means of remission than we need two baptisms. That's ONE baptism (Ephs 4:5) not two. You need to "believe" the words of Christ when He said "the flesh profiteth nothing". These "words" of His death "quickeneth" or "give life" in the sense when we believe we are born again "from above".
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6 (KJV)
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor. 3:17 (KJV)
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, "by the word of God", which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Pet. 1:23 (KJV)
We are born again by the words of the new testament which are faith in His blood for remission not born again by remission of sins in water baptism. The Spirit "baptism with the word" is an operation of God when we "believe" it is the "spirit that quickeneth" and the "flesh profitheth nothing".
Matt. 28:19 states no such thing, let alone "clearly"! That is YOUR addition to the words of the Lord, sir!
Apostles never water baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost no more than they water baptized all nations! Would you care to disprove it "without adding words" to verses with context.
As concerning Paul in 1 Cor. 1:17. You said, "Why would Christ send Paul NOT to water baptize if the GREAT COMMISSION was... You apostles go water baptize?"
If you would read the ENTIRE contextual setting around v. 17 - vv. 10-17 - instead of extracting just the one verse (17) and lifting it from its context, then you could understand the meaning of Paul's words. And you would also see that they do NOT conflict at all with Jesus' command to the apostles to go and be "baptizing" people, to mean baptizing them in WATER .
Paul was NOT saying in this verse that he did not believe baptism is not baptism in water, or that baptism in water is not necessary in order to be saved. If you keep his words in the context in which they were delivered you will see that his words meant that baptizing people was not Paul's PRIMARY work in carrying out the Lord's will, rather, preaching the gospel and planting the Lord's church from place to place was.
"PRIMARY" ,show me primarily not to baptize in context please. It is clear, Paul was sent NOT to baptize. In context Paul said "lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect". Paul knew that if they "believed" water baptism was "for remission of sins" then the new testament of "the shed blood of Christ form remission of sins" would be made of none effect.
Compare to:
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men". Mark 7:7 (KJV)
For laying aside the commandment of God, "ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups": and many other such like things ye do. Mark 7:8 (KJV)
And he said unto them, Full well "ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition". Mark 7:9 (KJV)
For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: Mark 7:10 (KJV)
But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, "that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free". Mark 7:11 (KJV)
And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Mark 7:12 (KJV)
"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition", which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Mark 7:13 (KJV)
I have a question for you, HopeofGlory, concerning this verse:
You place such emphasis on just the words of Paul that say that Christ did not send him to baptize... but Paul said that he did baptize some of those there in Corinth. If, as you say, the baptism of Christ is not water baptism but "Spirit baptism" (your words), then how is it that of all those Paul preached the word to, he said, "I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius...Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanus. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other"?
Wrong, I place all emphasis of the words of Christ Jesus and judge all words of mere men by them. It is clear Paul did water baptize some and it is also clear that afterward Paul was sent NOT to water baptize.
If you are correct, that the baptism the N. T. speaks of is "Spirit baptism," and that baptism comes from preaching the word, then how is it that of all those Paul preached the word to, he specifically said himself that he only baptized these few individuals? That would mean that of all the people in the great city of Corinth, he only preached the word to these few individuals.
Within the context of the bible all men progressively understand the gospel of Christ and your question is answered in the above.
This is the necessary consequence of your view of baptism , which, again, shows that your view is completely contrary to the teaching of God's word.
It is your view of baptism that is contrary to God's view.
For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contrary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
My replies are bold
You said to JustAChristian, with regard to his quotation of Mk. 16:16, "Where is the water in this verse? It is not there!!!!"
Well, where is it? Show me within the context of the last words of Christ where the water is.
Then you turned right around and did exactly the same thing! Watch:
You quoted 1 Cor. 1:17 in this manner:
"For Christ sent (after the cross) me not to (water) baptize, but to preach the gospel.... 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)"
You added "water" to the verse when it is not mentioned in the verse at all!
Do you disagree That Paul is referring to water baptism?
Secondly, you distorted the teaching of Matt. 28:19 (as you do countless other verses) by saying:
"It is clear the apostles are being instructed to teach and the teaching of the word will baptize them."
The context is teaching! Unless you would have us believe the eleven were commanded to personally water baptize "all nations".
Jesus gave His apostles 3 commands to carry out in Matt:18:19... (1) make disciples (2) baptizing them (3) teaching them to obey everything He had commanded [and He had just commanded baptism!]. He did NOT "clearly" say at all, as you assert, that the baptism here would come from, and be done by, the word that they taught. Again, you contradict yourself by accusing JustAChristian and others of adding "water" to baptism passages, but then you come along and add into Matt. 28:19 that Jesus is "clearly" saying that the baptizing He is speaking of is being done by/with the "word."
1-Making disciples by the process of teaching.
2-You can't be serious, the eleven, all nations????
3-Teaching, Yes!
Again, Jesus never command the disciples to "water" baptize anyone and He surely did not command the eleven to water baptize "all nations"!
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
But there are "some of you that believe not". For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64 (KJV)
These words are in reference to the new testament for remission of sins and this testament superceded water baptism for remission of sins. We no more need two means of remission than we need two baptisms. That's ONE baptism (Ephs 4:5) not two. You need to "believe" the words of Christ when He said "the flesh profiteth nothing". These "words" of His death "quickeneth" or "give life" in the sense when we believe we are born again "from above".
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6 (KJV)
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor. 3:17 (KJV)
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, "by the word of God", which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Pet. 1:23 (KJV)
We are born again by the words of the new testament which are faith in His blood for remission not born again by remission of sins in water baptism. The Spirit "baptism with the word" is an operation of God when we "believe" it is the "spirit that quickeneth" and the "flesh profitheth nothing".
Matt. 28:19 states no such thing, let alone "clearly"! That is YOUR addition to the words of the Lord, sir!
Apostles never water baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost no more than they water baptized all nations! Would you care to disprove it "without adding words" to verses with context.
As concerning Paul in 1 Cor. 1:17. You said, "Why would Christ send Paul NOT to water baptize if the GREAT COMMISSION was... You apostles go water baptize?"
If you would read the ENTIRE contextual setting around v. 17 - vv. 10-17 - instead of extracting just the one verse (17) and lifting it from its context, then you could understand the meaning of Paul's words. And you would also see that they do NOT conflict at all with Jesus' command to the apostles to go and be "baptizing" people, to mean baptizing them in WATER .
Paul was NOT saying in this verse that he did not believe baptism is not baptism in water, or that baptism in water is not necessary in order to be saved. If you keep his words in the context in which they were delivered you will see that his words meant that baptizing people was not Paul's PRIMARY work in carrying out the Lord's will, rather, preaching the gospel and planting the Lord's church from place to place was.
"PRIMARY" ,show me primarily not to baptize in context please. It is clear, Paul was sent NOT to baptize. In context Paul said "lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect". Paul knew that if they "believed" water baptism was "for remission of sins" then the new testament of "the shed blood of Christ form remission of sins" would be made of none effect.
Compare to:
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men". Mark 7:7 (KJV)
For laying aside the commandment of God, "ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups": and many other such like things ye do. Mark 7:8 (KJV)
And he said unto them, Full well "ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition". Mark 7:9 (KJV)
For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: Mark 7:10 (KJV)
But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, "that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free". Mark 7:11 (KJV)
And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Mark 7:12 (KJV)
"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition", which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Mark 7:13 (KJV)
I have a question for you, HopeofGlory, concerning this verse:
You place such emphasis on just the words of Paul that say that Christ did not send him to baptize... but Paul said that he did baptize some of those there in Corinth. If, as you say, the baptism of Christ is not water baptism but "Spirit baptism" (your words), then how is it that of all those Paul preached the word to, he said, "I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius...Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanus. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other"?
Wrong, I place all emphasis of the words of Christ Jesus and judge all words of mere men by them. It is clear Paul did water baptize some and it is also clear that afterward Paul was sent NOT to water baptize.
If you are correct, that the baptism the N. T. speaks of is "Spirit baptism," and that baptism comes from preaching the word, then how is it that of all those Paul preached the word to, he specifically said himself that he only baptized these few individuals? That would mean that of all the people in the great city of Corinth, he only preached the word to these few individuals.
Within the context of the bible all men progressively understand the gospel of Christ and your question is answered in the above.
This is the necessary consequence of your view of baptism , which, again, shows that your view is completely contrary to the teaching of God's word.
It is your view of baptism that is contrary to God's view.
For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contrary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
HopeofGlory
New member
servantofChrist,
Bold are my replies
1 Pet. 3:21 says, "Baptism now saves you" (NASB). Those who contend that water baptism does NOT save, believe that the baptism that DOES save is Holy Spirit baptism.
Yes, salvation is the operation of God not man.
But here is the inescapable conclusion resulting from this view:
Acts 2:1-4 and Acts 10: 44-48 show that when individuals received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit "fell upon" them at the time, place, and circumstance of GOD'S choosing! It was a completely one-way affair. In both of these examples of persons receiving Holy Spirit baptism, those who received it had to WAIT for it to occur and were taken completely by surprise at its occurrence - not even knowing IF, let alone WHEN, the Holy Spirit would fall upon them
Show me where anyone received "baptism of the Holy Ghost" in context without adding words to verses!!! What is "baptism of the Holy Ghost"? Is it like the "baptism of John"? What is it and show me with scripture!!!!????
We do NOT see, in these examples, people being given a command to obey and then their being baptized with the Holy Spirit in doing so. It was ENTIRELY a GOD-DIRECTED operation.
God bles
So what? This proves nothing!!
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the "obedience of one shall many be made righteous". Rom. 5:19 (KJV)
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
Therefore, if the baptism that saves us is, as so many contend, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and not water baptism, then GOD HIMSELF is responsible for EVERYONE'S salvation - for HE ALONE directs Holy Spirit baptism!
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the """operation of God""", who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12 (KJV)
But, in contrast to this, on the day of Pentecost, in Acts 2, at the conclusion of the first gospel sermon ever delivered, those people there were given a two-part COMMAND by the Holy Spirit TO OBEY which He expressly stated was "for the forgiveness of your sins." The first command was to "Repent" and the second command - that they were to obey - was to "be baptized, every one of you...."
The tradition of men does not grant eternal security. See previous post!!! The law was removed by the cross.
Further, in v. 41, it says that "all who accepted his word were baptized." The opposite of this is equally true: all who were NOT baptized did NOT accept his word!
It is true that "all who accept His WORD will be baptized" so accept the words of the "new" testament in His "blood for remission". It is by His obedience not yours so the "gift can be free".
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Rom. 5:18 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
Bold are my replies
1 Pet. 3:21 says, "Baptism now saves you" (NASB). Those who contend that water baptism does NOT save, believe that the baptism that DOES save is Holy Spirit baptism.
Yes, salvation is the operation of God not man.
But here is the inescapable conclusion resulting from this view:
Acts 2:1-4 and Acts 10: 44-48 show that when individuals received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit "fell upon" them at the time, place, and circumstance of GOD'S choosing! It was a completely one-way affair. In both of these examples of persons receiving Holy Spirit baptism, those who received it had to WAIT for it to occur and were taken completely by surprise at its occurrence - not even knowing IF, let alone WHEN, the Holy Spirit would fall upon them
Show me where anyone received "baptism of the Holy Ghost" in context without adding words to verses!!! What is "baptism of the Holy Ghost"? Is it like the "baptism of John"? What is it and show me with scripture!!!!????
We do NOT see, in these examples, people being given a command to obey and then their being baptized with the Holy Spirit in doing so. It was ENTIRELY a GOD-DIRECTED operation.
God bles
So what? This proves nothing!!
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the "obedience of one shall many be made righteous". Rom. 5:19 (KJV)
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
Therefore, if the baptism that saves us is, as so many contend, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and not water baptism, then GOD HIMSELF is responsible for EVERYONE'S salvation - for HE ALONE directs Holy Spirit baptism!
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the """operation of God""", who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12 (KJV)
But, in contrast to this, on the day of Pentecost, in Acts 2, at the conclusion of the first gospel sermon ever delivered, those people there were given a two-part COMMAND by the Holy Spirit TO OBEY which He expressly stated was "for the forgiveness of your sins." The first command was to "Repent" and the second command - that they were to obey - was to "be baptized, every one of you...."
The tradition of men does not grant eternal security. See previous post!!! The law was removed by the cross.
Further, in v. 41, it says that "all who accepted his word were baptized." The opposite of this is equally true: all who were NOT baptized did NOT accept his word!
It is true that "all who accept His WORD will be baptized" so accept the words of the "new" testament in His "blood for remission". It is by His obedience not yours so the "gift can be free".
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Rom. 5:18 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
David J. Conkli
New member
>The law was removed by the cross.
Then what law was Paul talking about in Romans 7:7-23?
The debt to the law was paid at the Crooss; the Law remains in "force" to point out our sins and our need of a Savior.
Paul's View of the Law By Israel J. Contreras
http://reformedforum.com/members/Essays/Essays_on_the_Law_of_God/Paul's_View_of_the_Law.htm
But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully - I Timothy1:8
{opening paragraph:}
"John Murray speaks of being told about a commonly held view of the law. He says, "It is inconsistent, they say, with the spirit or principle of love: 'Don't speak of law, nor of moral precepts . . .Speak of the law of love.' Furthermore we are told that the Christian is not under law but grace." 1 In the history of the church a misunderstanding of the law has lead to many misunderstandings in theology. Today is no exception. Much of modern evangelicalism believes that the law is separate from faith and believes that the law has no relationship to the gospel. Thus, much of modern evangelicalism has fallen victim to an essential misunderstanding of the gospel. Today the church forgets that Paul died to the law through the law. Dr. Murray speaks to the destruction of the proper relationship between the law and the gospel when he says, "Abolish or abrogate the law and you deny the reality of sin. Where no law is there is no transgression." 2 If there is no transgression, there is no sin; thus there is no need for the gospel. Thus, in our day the theological use of the law or the usus pedagogicus of the law is often mistaken for legalism."
Then what law was Paul talking about in Romans 7:7-23?
The debt to the law was paid at the Crooss; the Law remains in "force" to point out our sins and our need of a Savior.
Paul's View of the Law By Israel J. Contreras
http://reformedforum.com/members/Essays/Essays_on_the_Law_of_God/Paul's_View_of_the_Law.htm
But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully - I Timothy1:8
{opening paragraph:}
"John Murray speaks of being told about a commonly held view of the law. He says, "It is inconsistent, they say, with the spirit or principle of love: 'Don't speak of law, nor of moral precepts . . .Speak of the law of love.' Furthermore we are told that the Christian is not under law but grace." 1 In the history of the church a misunderstanding of the law has lead to many misunderstandings in theology. Today is no exception. Much of modern evangelicalism believes that the law is separate from faith and believes that the law has no relationship to the gospel. Thus, much of modern evangelicalism has fallen victim to an essential misunderstanding of the gospel. Today the church forgets that Paul died to the law through the law. Dr. Murray speaks to the destruction of the proper relationship between the law and the gospel when he says, "Abolish or abrogate the law and you deny the reality of sin. Where no law is there is no transgression." 2 If there is no transgression, there is no sin; thus there is no need for the gospel. Thus, in our day the theological use of the law or the usus pedagogicus of the law is often mistaken for legalism."
HopeofGlory
New member
Christ fulfilled the law for believers!
Christ fulfilled the law for believers!
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4 (KJV)
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 1 John 3:5 (KJV)
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1 John 3:6 (KJV)
If we believe Christ Jesus truly took away ours sins then we can believe we will never be condemned (John 5:24) by sin which is transgression of the law. Christ fulfilled the law but this work of the Son of God is not imputed to us until we believe the words of His substitutional death for sin. Indeed the Mosaic law (obedience) is removed by Christ and replaced with the law of "liberty".
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Gal. 5:1 (KJV)
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: Gal. 4:3 (KJV)
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, Gal. 4:4 (KJV)
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Gal. 4:5 (KJV)
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Gal. 4:6 (KJV)
Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. Gal. 4:7 (KJV)
Being "no more" bound "by the elements of this world" we have ascended with him by being in Him through "faith" of the operation of God and are seated together with Christ on the right hand of the Father and are eternally secure.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom. 8:1 (KJV)
For the "law of the Spirit of life" in Christ Jesus hath made me "free from the law of sin" and death. Rom. 8:2 (KJV)
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Rom. 8:3 (KJV)
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom. 8:4 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
Christ fulfilled the law for believers!
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4 (KJV)
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 1 John 3:5 (KJV)
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1 John 3:6 (KJV)
If we believe Christ Jesus truly took away ours sins then we can believe we will never be condemned (John 5:24) by sin which is transgression of the law. Christ fulfilled the law but this work of the Son of God is not imputed to us until we believe the words of His substitutional death for sin. Indeed the Mosaic law (obedience) is removed by Christ and replaced with the law of "liberty".
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Gal. 5:1 (KJV)
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: Gal. 4:3 (KJV)
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, Gal. 4:4 (KJV)
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Gal. 4:5 (KJV)
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Gal. 4:6 (KJV)
Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. Gal. 4:7 (KJV)
Being "no more" bound "by the elements of this world" we have ascended with him by being in Him through "faith" of the operation of God and are seated together with Christ on the right hand of the Father and are eternally secure.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom. 8:1 (KJV)
For the "law of the Spirit of life" in Christ Jesus hath made me "free from the law of sin" and death. Rom. 8:2 (KJV)
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Rom. 8:3 (KJV)
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom. 8:4 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
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David J. Conkli
New member
>Indeed the Mosaic law (obedience) is removed by Christ and replaced with the law of "liberty".
Read E.P. Sanders and Paul; try a word study of "love" in the OT (you'll be amazed!). This is a mischaracterization of Judaism. Paul points to Abraham and David as examples of one's who were saved by faith.
Read E.P. Sanders and Paul; try a word study of "love" in the OT (you'll be amazed!). This is a mischaracterization of Judaism. Paul points to Abraham and David as examples of one's who were saved by faith.
servantofChrist
New member
HopeofGlory,
You said that those who accept God's word "will be" baptized. but that is not what the Scripture says: Acts 2:41 says that "those who accepted his message WERE baptized." And you say that being baptized with/in the Holy Spirit is "progressive." But, again, Acts 2:41 says, "Those who accepted his message WERE BAPTIZED..." Therefore, if what you say is true, and Holy Spirit baptism is progressive, then this only proves that the baptism of Acts 2:38, 41 is NOT Holy Spirit baptism because they "were baptized" - past tense not future tense - ON THAT VERY DAY.
Therefore, you are not reasoning from the scriptures correctly.
Would you please answer this:
If you were one of those present at that first-ever gospel message, and you were standing there with no Bible in your hand (obviously), and all you had to depend on to know what to do to be forgiven of your sins was to hear what the Holy Spirit said IN THAT MESSAGE (which is all those people had to rely on) spoken through the apostle of Christ, and the Holy Spirit's command was given to you crystal clear to "Repent and be baptized...in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,"
WHAT would you do?
You said that those who accept God's word "will be" baptized. but that is not what the Scripture says: Acts 2:41 says that "those who accepted his message WERE baptized." And you say that being baptized with/in the Holy Spirit is "progressive." But, again, Acts 2:41 says, "Those who accepted his message WERE BAPTIZED..." Therefore, if what you say is true, and Holy Spirit baptism is progressive, then this only proves that the baptism of Acts 2:38, 41 is NOT Holy Spirit baptism because they "were baptized" - past tense not future tense - ON THAT VERY DAY.
Therefore, you are not reasoning from the scriptures correctly.
Would you please answer this:
If you were one of those present at that first-ever gospel message, and you were standing there with no Bible in your hand (obviously), and all you had to depend on to know what to do to be forgiven of your sins was to hear what the Holy Spirit said IN THAT MESSAGE (which is all those people had to rely on) spoken through the apostle of Christ, and the Holy Spirit's command was given to you crystal clear to "Repent and be baptized...in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,"
WHAT would you do?
servantofChrist
New member
HopeofGlory,
In all of your posts, I've noticed that you exclude citing virtually all verses of scripture that pertain to MAN'S part in the matter of salvation, and cite scripture after scripture after scripture that shows only God's part.
Yet, Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is "the source of eternal salvation FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM."
In a book I've put together myself, I've listed over 135 individual commands and instructions from the N. T., with their respective references given at the end of each command/instruction. And this is not the N. T.'s commands in entirety. But they imply A LIFELONG RESPONSE OF OBEDIENCE ON THE PART OF MAN, and at the end of them all looms that verse in Hebrews, that Christ is the source of salvation for those who "obey" Him. Not that I believe that if we don't obey each and every command in the N. T. we will go to Hell. But so many, many commands given us DOES imply that obedience to GOD is a LIFELONG, DILIGENT effort required on our part.
In contrast to this, you have virtually a one-sided view of salvation - which is NOT the N. T.'s view. It clearly and conclusively presents salvation in TWO parts, GOD'S and Man's:
GOD provides our salvation - BUT -
Man must give a response of obedience - and not just obedience but CONTINUAL obedience ("If we WALK in the light as He is the light...the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin," 1 Jno. 1:7)
In all of your posts, I've noticed that you exclude citing virtually all verses of scripture that pertain to MAN'S part in the matter of salvation, and cite scripture after scripture after scripture that shows only God's part.
Yet, Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is "the source of eternal salvation FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM."
In a book I've put together myself, I've listed over 135 individual commands and instructions from the N. T., with their respective references given at the end of each command/instruction. And this is not the N. T.'s commands in entirety. But they imply A LIFELONG RESPONSE OF OBEDIENCE ON THE PART OF MAN, and at the end of them all looms that verse in Hebrews, that Christ is the source of salvation for those who "obey" Him. Not that I believe that if we don't obey each and every command in the N. T. we will go to Hell. But so many, many commands given us DOES imply that obedience to GOD is a LIFELONG, DILIGENT effort required on our part.
In contrast to this, you have virtually a one-sided view of salvation - which is NOT the N. T.'s view. It clearly and conclusively presents salvation in TWO parts, GOD'S and Man's:
GOD provides our salvation - BUT -
Man must give a response of obedience - and not just obedience but CONTINUAL obedience ("If we WALK in the light as He is the light...the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin," 1 Jno. 1:7)
HopeofGlory
New member
Liberty in Christ
Liberty in Christ
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. Heb. 7:19 (KJV)
Who also hath made us able ministers (doers) of the new testament (Matt 26:28); not of the letter, but of the "spirit" (see John 6:63): for the letter killeth, but the spirit (words of new testament) giveth life. 2 Cor. 3:6 (KJV)
But if the ministration of death (law), written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 2 Cor. 3:7 (KJV)
How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 2 Cor. 3:8 (KJV)
For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 2 Cor. 3:9 (KJV)
For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 2 Cor. 3:10 (KJV)
For if that which (law) is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth (spirt words of the new testament) is glorious.
2 Cor. 3:11 (KJV)
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 2 Cor. 3:12 (KJV)
And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 2 Cor. 3:13 (KJV)
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. 2 Cor. 3:14 (KJV)
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. 2 Cor. 3:15 (KJV)
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. 2 Cor. 3:16 (KJV)
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor. 3:17 (KJV)
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Cor. 3:18 (KJV)
Blessed is the doer of the word.
Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil "doer" (minister of the word), even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. 2 Tim. 2:9 (KJV)
Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory (John 6:54). 2 Tim. 2:10 (KJV)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all "spiritual" blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Eph. 1:3 (KJV)
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph. 1:4 (KJV)
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph. 1:5 (KJV)
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Eph. 1:6 (KJV)
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Eph. 1:7 (KJV)
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Eph. 1:8 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
Liberty in Christ
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. Heb. 7:19 (KJV)
Who also hath made us able ministers (doers) of the new testament (Matt 26:28); not of the letter, but of the "spirit" (see John 6:63): for the letter killeth, but the spirit (words of new testament) giveth life. 2 Cor. 3:6 (KJV)
But if the ministration of death (law), written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 2 Cor. 3:7 (KJV)
How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 2 Cor. 3:8 (KJV)
For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 2 Cor. 3:9 (KJV)
For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 2 Cor. 3:10 (KJV)
For if that which (law) is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth (spirt words of the new testament) is glorious.
2 Cor. 3:11 (KJV)
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 2 Cor. 3:12 (KJV)
And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 2 Cor. 3:13 (KJV)
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. 2 Cor. 3:14 (KJV)
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. 2 Cor. 3:15 (KJV)
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. 2 Cor. 3:16 (KJV)
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor. 3:17 (KJV)
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Cor. 3:18 (KJV)
Blessed is the doer of the word.
Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil "doer" (minister of the word), even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. 2 Tim. 2:9 (KJV)
Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory (John 6:54). 2 Tim. 2:10 (KJV)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all "spiritual" blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Eph. 1:3 (KJV)
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph. 1:4 (KJV)
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph. 1:5 (KJV)
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Eph. 1:6 (KJV)
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Eph. 1:7 (KJV)
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Eph. 1:8 (KJV)
In Christ
Craig
JustAChristian
New member
Hey! Everybody!!
Hey! Everybody!!
I'm Baaaaaaaaaackkkkkkkkkk!!
Sorry to see Ian moved on to another thread. He'll be back though, want you Ian? I had a good trip to St. Louis from our home here in Lakeland, FL. I hope you'll missed me!
JustAChristian
Hey! Everybody!!
I'm Baaaaaaaaaackkkkkkkkkk!!
Sorry to see Ian moved on to another thread. He'll be back though, want you Ian? I had a good trip to St. Louis from our home here in Lakeland, FL. I hope you'll missed me!
JustAChristian
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JustAChristian
New member
Re: Hey! Everybody!!
Re: Hey! Everybody!!
I am going to add a Post Script to this post with a statement that I had made earlier to Craig. I am doing so because I believe it is so approprite at this time. Craig's original statement is found on page 47 of this thread...
Craig says:
My point is, nowhere is it found in scripture that Jesus commanded "water" baptism and He most assuredly did not command a "new" water baptism. Baptism in "water" is found many times in scripture but when water is not contextual then baptism may have other implications. We must not say thus saith the Lord when the Lord has not said!
1. Jesus commanded the preaching of the gospel
2. What is the gospel? Paul declared to the Corinthian church,
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
3. Paul received revelation from Jesus Christ and taught only that which Christ commanded (directly or indirectly) in all churches (Eph 3:3; 1 Cor 4:17).
4. Paul taught that man must be baptized.
A. In order to be spiritually buried as Christ.
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom. 6:3-6).
B. In order to be added to the Spiritual body of Christ. And, in order to be in fellowship with the saints of God.
"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Gal 3:27).
" Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.(Acts 2:41-47).
Conclusion.
If you conclude from the scriptures that Jesus never commanded baptism, then you disobey all rules of logic. You should accept things of the scripture based on one of three avenues, those being; that it is stated directed or those things that are commanded or that which is implied so implicitly that it can not be misunderstood. For instance, Peter preached on Pentecost that the believers were to be baptized for the remission of sins. Now between the end of his sermon and the adding to the church daily by the Lord Jesus Christ, these believers went down into the water and came up out of the water, like Philip and the Eunuch of Act 8: 38-39. We know that Jesus told his apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel. Paul preached that which he received from revelation. What was revealed was the gospel, the power unto salvation (Rom. 1:16). Paul taught that a man must be baptized, in the letter to the Romans and to the Galatians. He taught only that which was revealed from Christ. He taught the same in all churches. He taught baptism in all the churches. His teaching was consistent with the other apostles ( Acts 15:22-23). Therefore, gospel contains baptism in water for the remission of sins as a command of Christ.
Craig asked:
Why is it that you feel the historical account of Acts in reference to the words and actions of men should define right doctrine? My point is this, you have to see all that the "LORD" said about a subject before you say thus saith the Lord.
I have never concluded my teaching to that which is found only in Acts. I use "all the counsel of God" – from "cover to cover", and even the cover, if necessary.
JustAChristian
Re: Hey! Everybody!!
I am going to add a Post Script to this post with a statement that I had made earlier to Craig. I am doing so because I believe it is so approprite at this time. Craig's original statement is found on page 47 of this thread...
Craig says:
My point is, nowhere is it found in scripture that Jesus commanded "water" baptism and He most assuredly did not command a "new" water baptism. Baptism in "water" is found many times in scripture but when water is not contextual then baptism may have other implications. We must not say thus saith the Lord when the Lord has not said!
1. Jesus commanded the preaching of the gospel
2. What is the gospel? Paul declared to the Corinthian church,
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
3. Paul received revelation from Jesus Christ and taught only that which Christ commanded (directly or indirectly) in all churches (Eph 3:3; 1 Cor 4:17).
4. Paul taught that man must be baptized.
A. In order to be spiritually buried as Christ.
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom. 6:3-6).
B. In order to be added to the Spiritual body of Christ. And, in order to be in fellowship with the saints of God.
"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Gal 3:27).
" Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.(Acts 2:41-47).
Conclusion.
If you conclude from the scriptures that Jesus never commanded baptism, then you disobey all rules of logic. You should accept things of the scripture based on one of three avenues, those being; that it is stated directed or those things that are commanded or that which is implied so implicitly that it can not be misunderstood. For instance, Peter preached on Pentecost that the believers were to be baptized for the remission of sins. Now between the end of his sermon and the adding to the church daily by the Lord Jesus Christ, these believers went down into the water and came up out of the water, like Philip and the Eunuch of Act 8: 38-39. We know that Jesus told his apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel. Paul preached that which he received from revelation. What was revealed was the gospel, the power unto salvation (Rom. 1:16). Paul taught that a man must be baptized, in the letter to the Romans and to the Galatians. He taught only that which was revealed from Christ. He taught the same in all churches. He taught baptism in all the churches. His teaching was consistent with the other apostles ( Acts 15:22-23). Therefore, gospel contains baptism in water for the remission of sins as a command of Christ.
Craig asked:
Why is it that you feel the historical account of Acts in reference to the words and actions of men should define right doctrine? My point is this, you have to see all that the "LORD" said about a subject before you say thus saith the Lord.
I have never concluded my teaching to that which is found only in Acts. I use "all the counsel of God" – from "cover to cover", and even the cover, if necessary.
JustAChristian
Last edited:
JustAChristian
New member
Thanks Buddy!
Thanks Buddy!
I tried to make some post while on the road, but couldn't because TheologyOnline did not recognize my entry site and I didn't have my password. Glad to be back and teaching the Gospel on this thread.
JustAChristian
Thanks Buddy!
I tried to make some post while on the road, but couldn't because TheologyOnline did not recognize my entry site and I didn't have my password. Glad to be back and teaching the Gospel on this thread.
JustAChristian