The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[JustAChristian]

You are doing a great job !!

You are doing a great job !!

Originally posted by Kevin
Freak,



How can we be placed in His righteousness without obedience to His commandments? If a man does not keep His commandments, they don't have the truth as clearly spoken in 1John 2:3-4. A person who does not have the truth will NOT be placed into His righteousness. If a man "trusts" in Christ for salvation, but doesn not keep His commandments, his trust is in vain, because he doesn't know Christ.



Can we get into Him without obeying His commandments? Are you saying that once you are "saved" that Christ keeps his own commandments, even though WE are told to do so?



Why you can't bring yourself to answer a simple yes or no question, even though I did so when you asked. :down: Are you so blinded that you don't realize how bad your lack of directly answering my questions is killing your position? You are so lucky we aren't debating in front of a live audience.

And it's not like I'm the only one to notice your lack of answers. Are you really that blind?

Kevin,
Let me continue to say how much I appreciate your efforts to convert these unbelievers. I have just moved to Tennessee and will be updating my profile. Hope to be joining you and other who will be declaring "all the council of God" on TOL. Again, it is so great to read your responses. Have a great rest of the day.

JustAChristian

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

How can we be placed in His righteousness without obedience to His commandments?
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Fairly simple. By faith.

Let's take a glance at a few Scriptures that prove my point.

This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

But will that faith do any good without obedience to Christ? Will righteousness be credited to he who has faith but does NOT keep His commandments?

We are credited righteousness through belief "in Him."

Again, will righteousness be credited to he who has faith but does NOT keep His commandments? Yes or No?

Let's move on...

Beleive me, I'd like to. I'm just waiting for a simple yes or no to my simple question. When you can bring yourself to do this, then we can move on. As long as you continue to dance around it, I will continue to ask you.

Don't ask me yes or no questions if you are not willing to do the same.

Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."

How are we credited righteousness? Through faith.

Yes, but was it his faith "only" that caused him to have righteouseness accredited to him? No. Here are scriptures talking about the same account of Abraham being credited with righteousness:

James 2:21-24 (MKJV)
21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22) Do you see how faith worked with his works, and from the works faith was made complete?
23) And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness, and he was called the friend of God."
24) You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Well well... the same account of Abraham being credited with righteousness from God, and it CLEARLY SAYS IS NOT BY FAITH ONLY! (verse 24)

James concludes in verse 26:

26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So much for your faith only theory. This falls perfectly in line with what I've been saying this WHOLE time, that faith without obedience is USELESS (DEAD).

Can we get into Him without obeying His commandments?
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See above.

Where did you answer my simple yes or no question? I don't see it "above" at all.

You are so lucky we aren't debating in front of a live audience.
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I have held debates all across the world. I'm not afriad of little old Kevin.

Did these people actually ask you questions? If you debate publicly like you do online, you should be afraid, and not of me, but of the word of God which you cannot answer. Here's why:

For those who are following this, some/most of the comments will come from the thread "What happens to unbaptized believers?" http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7912&perpage=15&pagenumber=5 (page 5)

See how Freak (ahem) "answers" my questions:

• I can directly answer questions, you can't. After 20 years of service, Freak, that's pretty sad. A child could answer the questions I ask.
• I'm able to Biblically back my answers to your arguments, and then in the next post, you say *nothing* about it. It's easy to hide in cyberspace, but not in the public eye.
• I've got a straight head on my shoulders, I don't tell people I love them and then pray in the name of Jesus that God curse that person. Is this how you treat people you love? You are one confused individual.
• I debate the word of God and defend it to the best of my ability. You on the other hand have your preconcevied doctrine, and will not deviate from it, despite verses that contradict your beliefs, which is why you don't address a lot of questions.
• And finally, people would see you for who are are... a self-righteous, judgmental, hateful person who pretends to know the destiny of people before Christ judges them.

You've held debates around the world eh? Well why don't you come down to Portland, OR in the USA and let's get it on. It shouldn't be a problem for one who has 20 years of service and debates around the world. Come one down and let's see what you've got, and I hope it's more than what I've seen on cyberspace. You can hide from questions in cyberspace, but you can't hide when your on the spot in front of people, and I won't let you dance around like you do on the forums. Come on... it's just "little old Kevin".

What say you, Freak?

 

[Kevin]

JustAChristian,

Kevin,
Let me continue to say how much I appreciate your efforts to convert these unbelievers. I have just moved to Tennessee and will be updating my profile. Hope to be joining you and other who will be declaring "all the council of God" on TOL. Again, it is so great to read your responses. Have a great rest of the day.

JustAChristian

Thank you so much for the compliments my friend, and I certainly do look forward to more of your posts. Excellent stuff! Did you see what Freak said to me in the "What happens to unbaptized believers?" thread? I rattled him so hard that he prayed in the name of Jesus that God curse me (this after telling me that he loves me ). Here's the link if your interested:

http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=259387#post259387 (page 5)

He does a really good job of showing the holes in his doctrine. Good hearing from you! :up:

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Kevin
Freak,
But will that faith do any good without obedience to Christ? Will righteousness be credited to he who has faith but does NOT keep His commandments?

Yes & yes.

I've got a straight head on my shoulders, I don't tell people I love them and then pray in the name of Jesus that God curse that person. Is this how you treat people you love? You are one confused individual.

I do love you.....but I am concerned about the heresy you promote on this site. So, yes I curse your heresy in the Name of Jesus. Don't test God on this.

And finally, people would see you for who are are... a self-righteous, judgmental, hateful person who pretends to know the destiny of people before Christ judges them.[/list]

If someone rejects Christ and that justification comes by faith then I do know where they'll be spending eternity---hell.

You've held debates around the world eh? Well why don't you come down to Portland, OR in the USA and let's get it on.

Next time I'm in your area I'll let you know.

What say you, Freak?

I say you'd chicken out..its one thing to hide here online it's something entirely different talking before thousands.

 

[c.moore]

Kevin

As soon as we believe and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord we are at that moment , or instant saved, born again , specially when we have repented and asked the blood of Jesus to wash us clean of all our sins, we are Holy as can be before God because of Christ Jesus without any works, or commandments or rituals, or ceromonies, or religious works,or water baptism.

Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now if oyu could understand this verse you will see the whole picture of salvation , and that we are righteous without ritual work or commandments when we accept Jesus .

But of course in our Christian walk because we are already saved we do the commandments , and we walk in love, and we obey after we are saved by repentance , believing,by faith and with the heart, and the blood washing.

Yes , some where along the line in our christian walk is the obedience to be baptized water, or go witnessing as we do our christian walk as a child of God in the with our names in the book of life praise God.

We do believe and by saying this I mean we trust Jesus with all our hearts the best we know how and we run the race the best we know how but we have won because we have Jesus in us already.

here is another key scripture for you that can save anybody without any works obedience, or baptism

Joh:3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

being not condemn Kevin will keep you out of hell NOW or already, meaning we have salvation in believing or trusting Jesus as your Personal savior NOW without anything done.

If you try to use your baptism work that is boasting and when God confronts you why you are saved , you will say look at this and look at what I did, and what I done, and How I got baptized , and look at how I obeyed, and how I,I, did the commandments, and how I should get my religious merits to earn salvation according to my keeping the laws and commandment so I earned my commandment obeying award of salvation according to the bible and I ,I am no liar or sinner because of my obedience work according to 1Jo:2:3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo:2:5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

This is all true here Kevin but the order you look for salvation to be in effect is out of order, and the timing is in error.
It like i can `t drive my car until i get in the car , and the next step put the key in the ingnition ,and the next step turn on the motor , and in my driving I have to steer and give gas to drive, which is the obedience part you always mention is in the christian walk , after you are saved, get my point??


this is what Freak been trying to show you and myself and other praise God.
God Bless

 

[Freak]

Keep up the good work for Jesus, C. Moore....we miss you all. We look forward to coming back....Blessings to all.

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

Freak,
But will that faith do any good without obedience to Christ? Will righteousness be credited to he who has faith but does NOT keep His commandments?
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Yes & yes.

First of all, I would like to say thank you for answering my question (sincerely).

Secondly, you say that righteousness will credited to those who have faith, yet do not keep His commmandments. Considering that 1 John 2:3-4 clearly says that those who do not keep His commandments are liars and do not have the truth, how can such a person be credit righteousness?

I would say that a liar who doesn't have the truth would certainly not be credited righteousness, but you say they would. How? And please don't answer with "faith" without addressing that the fact that such a person is a liar and doesn't have the truth.

I've got a straight head on my shoulders, I don't tell people I love them and then pray in the name of Jesus that God curse that person. Is this how you treat people you love? You are one confused individual.
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I do love you.....but I am concerned about the heresy you promote on this site. So, yes I curse your heresy in the Name of Jesus. Don't test God on this.

I am testing you and your doctrine, not God. And you do realize you are asking God to curse one who defends the conversion process used by His apostles, don't you? I can find example after example of conversion support baptism, yet not time can I find a sinner's praryer conversion, anywhere. It is you who teach heresy, not me.

And finally, people would see you for who are are... a self-righteous, judgmental, hateful person who pretends to know the destiny of people before Christ judges them.[/list]
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If someone rejects Christ and that justification comes by faith then I do know where they'll be spending eternity---hell.

How am I rejecting Christ by defending what He commanded for the remission of sins? Is God giong to cast me into Hell for upholding His own doctrine? I think not.

And you have created a "hell list" with people's names in it. You have NO idea what their life will result in, so you can't say they are going to hell. I can't go up to a homosexual and say he is going to hell, even though homosexuals will not inherit the kindgdom of God, because he might repent to God one day, and who am I (or you) to say that he will end up in hell.

You've held debates around the world eh? Well why don't you come down to Portland, OR in the USA and let's get it on.
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Next time I'm in your area I'll let you know.

Sounds good.

What say you, Freak?
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I say you'd chicken out..its one thing to hide here online it's something entirely different talking before thousands.

That's exactly what I was telling you... that you won't have cyberspace to hide behind when you don't answer qeustions and completely ignore my arguments. You'll be on the spot and have to deal with them... or yes, weaken your false doctrine by ignoring them. Either way, fine by me.

As far as me chickening out... I've got stage fright, but knowing who I'm going up against will give me the confidence I need. I can answer directly and I won't ignore your agruments as you have done with mine. Bring it.

 

[apostolic]

Baptists distort the truth

Baptists distort the truth

Jesus said plainly, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." He didn't say, He that believeth is saved and should be baptized.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Kevin

Secondly, you say that righteousness will credited to those who have faith.

That is correct. Consider:

David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

You are credited righteousness because of your faith not because of something you do (keeping the law, commandments, etc).

The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

I am testing you and your doctrine, not God.

I have already tested you and have failed.

And you do realize you are asking God to curse one who defends the conversion process used by His apostles, don't you?

I curse you in the Name of Jesus, Kevin. I pray destruction upon your mental life until you repent of your heresy. God will get your attention--one way or another, trust me.

I can find example after example of conversion support baptism, yet not time can I find a sinner's praryer conversion.

I believe in Jesus conversion---receiving Him (John 1:12) is required.

How am I rejecting Christ by defending what He commanded for the remission of sins? Is God giong to cast me into Hell for upholding His own doctrine? I think not.

Kevin, I do honestly care for you but you are terribly deceived...you are trusting in your water baptism to save you--that is heresy---and heresy leads to eternal hell.

And you have created a "hell list" with people's names in it.

I think I'll add your name since you trust water for salvation..

You'll be on the spot and have to deal with them... or yes,

Kevin, as recent as a few months ago I spoke to 5,000 people about the claims of Christ. I have no problem being on the spot for Jesus.

 

[Freak]

Re: Baptists distort the truth

Re: Baptists distort the truth

Originally posted by apostolic
Jesus said plainly, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." He didn't say, He that believeth is saved and should be baptized.

Another heretic.

Jesus said:

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

I have just proved you to be a liar.:down:

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

As soon as we believe and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord we are at that moment , or instant saved, born again , specially when we have repented and asked the blood of Jesus to wash us clean of all our sins, we are Holy as can be before God because of Christ Jesus without any works, or commandments or rituals, or ceromonies, or religious works,or water baptism.

Funny, that's not how the conversion in Acts 2 went down, why do you suppose that is? How can you say one is born again while they are dead in their sins? Baptism is what washes of from our sins, crucifying the man of sin and being alive to God (Romans 6). A person who is dead to sin and alive to God, and walking in the NEWNESS of life through baptism has been again, not before.

Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This comaparison of Adam to Christ. Yes, it was by one Man's (Christ) obedience that many will made righteous. But they aren't going to have any righteousness unless they obey the gospel of Christ, and no it is WE who have to keep them, not Him. Are you trying to tell me that Christ keeps His own
commandments for us?

Now if oyu could understand this verse you will see the whole picture of salvation , and that we are righteous without ritual work or commandments when we accept Jesus.

I completely understand that verse, and it has nothing to do with Christ fulling His own commandments that WE are to keep upon believing. Again, this verse shows that by Adam, death came into the world because of his disobedience... and by Christ's obedience salvation came into the world, which is exactly why Heb. 5:9 says that Christ is the author of eternal salavation to all who OBEY Him. Obedience is key... but you guys wan't to say faith only saves- not true at all.

here is another key scripture for you that can save anybody without any works obedience, or baptism

Joh:3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You're right... no mention of baptism in there at all. Guess what, there's no mention of repentence in that verse either... can we just believe in Christ and not repent from our sinful ways and still be saved? Keep in mind that you said repentance is part of salvation:

Your words: "and we obey after we are saved by repentance , believing,by faith and with the heart, and the blood washing."

That verse mentions nothing about grace. Are we no longer saved by Grace?

See what happens when you go picking and choosing verses without taking the WHOLE counsel of God into consideration? You MISS vital parts. 1 Pet. 3:21 says that baptism now SAVES YOU, but I don't bank my whole doctrine on it, because I know from OTHER SCRIPTURES that without faith it is impossible to please God.

Yes , some where along the line in our christian walk is the obedience to be baptized water

Somewhere along the line???? Funny, baptism was commanded and done IMMEDIATELY after one believes in Biblical versions. And it only makes sense because it's for the forgivness of sins. I wouldn't want my sins forgiven "somewhere down the line", I'd want them forgiven immediately, just as the Biblical conversions show.

[qoute]1Jo:2:3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo:2:5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

This is all true here Kevin but the order you look for salvation to be in effect is out of order, and the timing is in error.[/quote]

I'm glad you see what I'm getting at, and no, my order is not wrong. You can't possibley obey what you don't know.... therefore you MUST hear and believe first. It's only logical, and that's exactly what happened in Acts 2. We don't obey His commandments to earn what cannot be earned (salvation), we obey them because is it a response of true faith in God. James 2 covers that quite well. Freak tried to pin me down showing from Romans that Abraham was credited righteousness because he believed in God. I showed him that SAME account in the book of James which clearly showed that Abraham was justified by works and faith, not faith only. Notice who he didn't respond?

 

[Kevin]

apostolic,

Jesus said plainly, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." He didn't say, He that believeth is saved and should be baptized.

Amen, brother. They can't accept that, though, even though it's written plain as day. They have to jump to other verses to try and sidetrack and ignore your agrument, just like Freak did in his post to you.

Amen to you for preaching what Christ said for salvation. :up:

 

[rene]

" I curse you in the Name of Jesus, Kevin. I pray destruction upon your mental life until you repent of your heresy. God will get your attention--one way or another, trust me."

Gal 6:7 You cannot fool God, so don't make a fool of yourself! You will harvest what you plant.

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

That is correct. Consider:

David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

You are credited righteousness because of your faith not because of something you do (keeping the law, commandments, etc).

The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Yeah, you already tried to use Abraham from the book of Romans to show that we are justifed by faith only. Funny, though, when I countered your arguement by showing you the same thing from the book of James, which shows that Abraham was justifed by faith and WORKS, and not faith only, I get no reply. Where's the reply? See, in cyberspace, you can avoid my arguments, but not when your on the spot. You continue to prove my case. You ignore arguments and can't answer qeustions.

Where's your answer to my question of:

"I would say that a liar who doesn't have the truth would certainly not be credited righteousness, but you say they would. How? And please don't answer with "faith" without addressing that the fact that such a person is a liar and doesn't have the truth."

You didn't even touch it, which only stregthens my point about you.

I have already tested you and have failed.

So is ignoring arguments and not answering questions how you typically "test" people, Freak?

And you do realize you are asking God to curse one who defends the conversion process used by His apostles, don't you?
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I curse you in the Name of Jesus, Kevin. I pray destruction upon your mental life until you repent of your heresy. God will get your attention--one way or another, trust me.

Oooh.... I show you how the apostles converted people and this is your response. You better practice A LOT in case we actually do debate in front of people, because that answer didn't deal with my point AT ALL and it's nothing more that you letting off hot air with no Biblical support to counter my statement. (That doesn't look good in a debate)

I can find example after example of conversion support baptism, yet not time can I find a sinner's praryer conversion.
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I believe in Jesus conversion---receiving Him (John 1:12) is required.

What does that have to do with my statement? Those people in Acts 2 also recieved Jesus and were baptized for the remission of sins, thus beginning a new life with Him. As many of us as were BAPTIZED into Christ have put on Christ. Baptism is HOW we get into Christ... which is why we see example after example of baptism being included in the conversion process.

So, where's that example of a sinner's prayer converting somebody?

How am I rejecting Christ by defending what He commanded for the remission of sins? Is God giong to cast me into Hell for upholding His own doctrine? I think not.
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Kevin, I do honestly care for you but you are terribly deceived...you are trusting in your water baptism to save you--that is heresy---and heresy leads to eternal hell.

I'm glad that you care for me, Freak, thank you, but how exactly does this response show how wrong for defending what Christ commanded for the remission of sins?

And you have created a "hell list" with people's names in it.
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I think I'll add your name since you trust water for salvation..

:kookoo: And can you show me where I'm trusting in water for salvation? I'm simply defending what Christ commanded for the remission of sins as being essential for salvation - BECAUSE THAT'S HOW CHRIST COMMANDED IT TO BE SO! I trust in Jesus so much for salvation that I obeyed what He commanded me to do for the remission of sins (which is essential), and you're putting me on a hell list. :doh: Wake up man...

You'll be on the spot and have to deal with them... or yes,
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Kevin, as recent as a few months ago I spoke to 5,000 people about the claims of Christ. I have no problem being on the spot for Jesus.

Funny how your having such a hard time answering my questions and completely ignoring my agruments, is this how you are going to defend the claims of Christ in front of a live audience when my agruments are presented? Not impressed, and neither will the audience.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Kevin

Wake up man...

I'm going to trust God's Word to wake you up---

David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him.

You are credited righteousness because of your faith not because of something you do (keeping the law, commandments, etc).

The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Kevin, in light of Scripture, are we made righteous through water?

 

[rene]

Do we trust all of God's word - or pick and choose what to believe?

Mar 16:15 Then he told them: Go and preach the good news to everyone in the world.
Mar 16:16 Anyone who believes me and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe me will be condemned.

Act 2:38 Peter said, "Turn back to God! Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will be given the Holy Spirit.

Act 8:12 But when they believed what Philip was saying about God's kingdom and about the name of Jesus Christ, they were all baptized.

Act 8:36 And as they were going along the highway they came on some water. And the eunuch said, Behold, water! What prevents me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If you believe from all the heart, it is lawful. And answering he said, I believe Jesus Christ to be the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Act 9:18 Suddenly something like fish scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see. He got up and was baptized.

Act 10:47 "These Gentiles have been given the Holy Spirit, just as we have! I am certain that no one would dare stop us from baptizing them."
Act 10:48 Peter ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and they asked him to stay on for a few days.

Act 16:15 Then after she and her family were baptized, she kept on begging us, "If you think I really do have faith in the Lord, come stay in my home." Finally, we accepted her invitation.

Act 16:33 While it was still night, the jailer took them to a place where he could wash their cuts and bruises. Then he and everyone in his home were baptized.

Act 18:8 Crispus was the leader of the meeting place. He and everyone in his family put their faith in the Lord. Many others in Corinth also heard the message, and all the people who had faith in the Lord were baptized.

Act 19:4 Paul replied, "John baptized people so that they would turn to God. But he also told them that someone else was coming, and that they should put their faith in him. Jesus is the one that John was talking about."
Act 19:5 After the people heard Paul say this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 22:16 What are you waiting for? Get up! Be baptized, and wash away your sins by praying to the Lord."

Rom 6:3 Don't you know that all who share in Christ Jesus by being baptized also share in his death?

Gal 3:27 And when you were baptized, it was as though you had put on Christ in the same way you put on new clothes.

 

[apostolic]

One must consider ALL the scriptures on an issue.

One must consider ALL the scriptures on an issue.

Freak

Of course one must believe to have eternal life. But one is required by the New Testament to do more than just believe. Even the devil believes, but that doesn't save him. We are required to obey all the commandments of Christ. And these include repentance and baptism. God commands all men to repent and be baptized. See Acts 17:31 and Mark 16;16. Acts 2:38.

Freak, you cannot simply take one text out of the New Testament and ignore the other texts speaking on the same subject. This is not rightly dividing the word of God. And I do not appreciate being called an idiot. I did not call you any personal names.

 

[Freak]

Re: One must consider ALL the scriptures on an issue.

Re: One must consider ALL the scriptures on an issue.

Originally posted by apostolic
Freak

Of course one must believe to have eternal life. But one is required by the New Testament to do more than just believe.

Was Jesus somehow mistaken when He said:

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

or when He said this:

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

No mention of water. Just Jesus.

And I do not appreciate being called an idiot. I did not call you any personal names.

Then don't say Jesus isn't enough...Jesus is the author & perfector of our faith not some H2O.

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

This is speaking of works by themselves, which certainly doesn't credit one righteousness in the eyes of God. It is our faith in Him that does.

A person can do works all day long, but if there's no faith, God certainly won't be pleased.

God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

That is correct, but as I've shown you, and heard no rebuttal, faith without works is dead. Faith only is NOT the type of belief spoken of in the verse you quoted.

You tried to argue your case quoting from the book of Romans which speaks of Abraham being credited righteousness because of his "belief" (which I agree with). However, the book of James also recalls that account, and clearly says that faith and works justified Abraham. It then quoted the exact verse that Romans did (see verse 23 below). Look again:

James 2:21-24 (MKJV)
21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22) Do you see how faith worked with his works, and from the works faith was made complete?
23) And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness, and he was called the friend of God."
24) You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Look again at verse 23, it's says the scripture was FULLFILLED that says that Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness. HOW was that scripture fulfilled, Freak? Verse 22 spells it out: It was fullfilled by his WORKS working together with his FAITH.

Then we have the ultimate conclusion in verse 24, that a man IS justified by works, AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY. That's the kind of belief that causes God to credit one with righteousness, a faith that includes WORKS. This is the kind of faith that saves, which is spoken throughout the Bible. If a person doesn't act upon faith, it's dead.

Kevin, in light of Scripture, are we made righteous through water?

On it's own? Certainly not. Now, hearing the gospel which causes us to believe and be baptized will certainly make us righteous, for baptism is what God commanded for the remission of sins! If you don't obey that, but have faith, God will not be pleased. That's basically saying that "God, I believe you, but I don't believe you enough to do what you say to remove my sins."

Faith throughout the Bible has always included action (works) as a response to that faith. It is that response to faith, the works, which works with our faith that makes us righteous in the eyes of God. Now if we just did works to try an earn our salvation, not having faith in God to save us, the works are useless.

You being a faith only guy... I wonder if you believe that we must repent to be saved. After all, they are two different things. One can believe in something and not repent of their ways. So would you start a thread that says "The Heretics message to the World: Repent to be Saved!"?

If you did, people would be quoting scripture to show you that it is necessary... and I can just see you saying "Jesus saves, not repentance", just has you've been saying "Jesus saves, not H20".

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

or when He said this:

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

No mention of water. Just Jesus.

Hmm... no mention of repentance in those verse either. Is that no longer necessary? We can just believe and continue our lives of sin and be saved?

This is what happens when you pick and choose your verses and make a doctrine out of them while IGNORING the other verses in the Bible which has to do with salvation. Try taking the WHOLE counsel of God into consideration.