The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[rene]

Hopeofglory writes: I have addressed the scriptures that point to baptism, are you blind are want?

My reply: I take it that you don't understand what is ment by a mature exchange that reflects a Christian attitude?

Your comments do not reflect nor are they represented within the meanings found within the original language.

So far there has been no debate. Way too many attempts at insulting me and not addressing the points - but no discussion.

 

[CoCrucified]

Re: Re: Ever Learning But Never Able To Come To The Knowledge Of The Truth

Re: Re: Ever Learning But Never Able To Come To The Knowledge Of The Truth

Originally posted by HopeofGlory
I'm not a dispensationalist. They believe that Christ taught the gospel of the circumcision, I disagree. The 12 taught a gospel that was not fully revealed yet as Paul was called to fulfill the gospel without the law.

Whoa, hold on a second. I am a dispensationalist, and I do not believe that Jesus taught the gospel of the circumcision.

If you believe in an Old and New Covenant, then you too are a dispensationalist. There are varying degrees of dispensationalism.

If you are not a dispensationalist to some degree, then you'd believe that we are still under the law of Moses.

I'm guessing that what you might have meant was, that you are not an ultra-dispensationalist.

Here's a good source of information on dispensationalism:
Dispensational Theology

 

[HopeofGlory]

Originally posted by rene
Hopeofglory writes: I have addressed the scriptures that point to baptism, are you blind are want?

My reply: I take it that you don't understand what is ment by a mature exchange that reflects a Christian attitude?

Your comments do not reflect nor are they represented within the meanings found within the original language.

So far there has been no debate. Way too many attempts at insulting me and not addressing the points - but no discussion.

Are you going to debate scripture are just continue to give your opinions.

If you think you haven't given your share of insults on this thread you're kidding yourself. Stop whining and debate.

 

[HopeofGlory]

Re: Re: Re: Ever Learning But Never Able To Come To The Knowledge Of The Truth

Re: Re: Re: Ever Learning But Never Able To Come To The Knowledge Of The Truth

Originally posted by CoCrucified
Whoa, hold on a second. I am a dispensationalist, and I do not believe that Jesus taught the gospel of the circumcision.

If you believe in an Old and New Covenant, then you too are a dispensationalist. There are varying degrees of dispensationalism.

If you are not a dispensationalist to some degree, then you'd believe that we are still under the law of Moses.

I'm guessing that what you might have meant was, that you are not an ultra-dispensationalist.

Here's a good source of information on dispensationalism:
Dispensational Theology

I was referring to JustAChristian's understanding of dispensationalism and you are right I should have said ultra dispensationalism.

I see God progressively revealing the gospel and man progressively understood that revealed truth until the gospel was fully revealed by Paul.

 

[rene]

Hopeofglory, you can't even address the scriptures that I posted with any substance that even supports what you suggest. None of the scriptures indicate nor state what you claim.

As to the rest - I have come to expect such from you. Nothing more to really say to such an attitude as you have displayed. You just don't seem to be able to get it.

 

[CoCrucified]

Originally posted by rene
Personally, I don't believe that baptism saves. I don't think faith saves. The ONLY salvation is thru the grace of Jesus to those that will obey His teachings. To have access to this wonderful gift means that one follows the teachings of Jesus.

Rene,

As James says, "faith without works is dead." However, Scripture is clear that salvation is in no way conditional or tied to "those that will obey His teachings." Paul points out that we should not continue in sin, because:
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?"
Romans 6:1-2 (NKJV)
I'm not saying that a Christian should go on sinning after salvation, but the salvation is not dependent upon our following His teachings. If someone is truly a believer, they will follow His teachings.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Eph 2:8-9 (NKJV)

Technically, our salvation was paid for by the death and shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross and His resurrection. We receive this gift of salvation through faith by God's grace (grace = unmerited favor).

Link to document - God's plan of salvation.

 

[HopeofGlory]

Originally posted by rene
Hopeofglory, you can't even address the scriptures that I posted with any substance that even supports what you suggest. None of the scriptures indicate nor state what you claim.

As to the rest - I have come to expect such from you. Nothing more to really say to such an attitude as you have displayed. You just don't seem to be able to get it.

More whining

 

[rene]

CoCrucified quotes: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Eph 2:8-9 (NKJV)

My reply: I can totally agree with that and do believe that this scripture points out what I have tried to suggest.

As it states within Ephesians 2:13 "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." The grace is based within and flows from the blood.

You say: Technically, our salvation was paid for by the death and shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross and His resurrection. We receive this gift of salvation through faith by God's grace (grace = unmerited favor).

My reply: I have no problems with that at all. I would also point to the scripture found within Ephesians 1:7-9.

Faith alone is not what God wanted nor desired, nor does such reflect what is within a mature believers life. To get to this place, one is going to have to follow the one that they say that they have faith in. To have faith means that one follows what it is that they have faith in. The words and examples of Jesus show what it is that a believer of Jesus has faith in. Shows what it is that they follow - or at least should.

Now, to keep within the parameters of the topic of the thread - baptism is what seems to be the problem that some have. To take even one thing that Jesus directed comments to and suggest that it is less than important - words that He spoke to the apostles as instruction on how to est. and lead the church - the 'bride of Christ', the church that He will return for - seems ludicrous to me. For some to see it as only getting "wet" - an insult to the very words of Jesus. Such should never go unchallenged by a believer. So at least now you somewhat understand why I made the comments that I have.

Just as Jesus is the mediator for us, we upon this earth are to be 'defenders of the faith'. That means that we stand by and support all that Jesus did and will do because we have been given the grace and godlike faith that is promised to all that will believe, accept, and follow Him. That means supporting and standing by what He said.

You said, "salvation is not dependent upon our following His teachings". I would say that salvation is not dependent anything that we do - but those that do follow Him will do all within their power to follow His teachings.

Baptism is not difficult. Easy to follow. If someone has problems with that - what are they going to do when they come up against a real trial of their faith - when they can't even follow one of the basic teachings of Jesus?

 

[Shaun]

rene:
True Faith is relying on Christ, and therefore following His commandments to the best of our abilities. Christ also commanded us to love our neighbor as ourself--but we don't always do that. The beauty of the cross is that it takes our faulty obedience, our off-and-on will, and redeems it through His obedience.

Water baptism at the time of Acts was a sign to the general public that you were "washing off" your old religion. It is a signal to men that you are shedding away your old life and "putting on" a new one; namely, Christ.

I will borrow from another poster on another board this excellent snippet:

Posted by pipinoz
In our society, an exchange of rings goes hand in hand with getting married. One might say, if you want to be married, make public vows and exchange rings. But everyone knows the ring exchange doesn't make you married. It is the pledge of commitment of two souls to becoming one which is the marriage.

So it is with baptism. It is/was the obedient outward response of one who has/had committed their life to Jesus. The public display and acknowledgement of a private decision and commitment.

This is how Jesus could say, "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven." (Matt 10:32) It is not our acknowledgement before men which saves us. But if we have truly put our trust in him, we will acknowledge him before men.

Salvation, however, is determined by grace and by faith. The works are simply obedience to that faith. They do not determine salvation:

Romans 10:8-10
8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

 

[rene]

Shaun, I would totally agree with you had the verse not been there in Acts 2:38 and the fact that Jesus also made certain that He too was baptized.

I have heard the comment used about the ring, the outward sign. I even can see where that is a very workable suggestion. BUT - - if that all it is, then why did Jesus make such a point of saying that such would be part of something that one following Him would do? Is it just limited to an outward sign?

Baptism wasn't something new to one that was part of the nation of Israel. It was used within the OT as something that was required to cleanse and 'make clean' from a variety of things (touching the dead, women on the monthly to name two). So such was something within the covenant that was with the nation of Israel. It also is found within other beliefs besides Jewish and Christian. Off the top of my head, but still too early in the morning, I am thinking of the ones in India that go to their 'sacred' river to follow a similar teaching within their belief.

So what is seen here is something that God a one time used to actual cleanse someone from being 'unclean' within the OT also used within the NT. The OT points towards the coming promised one, the Messiah. The NT tells of the arrival and the early est. of the church. But within both, this one thing stays.

Everything that God does - is for a reason. This is one of the things that I have learned and have come to see within scripture. Unlike mankind who does things 'just because', God always does things for a reason which mankind eventually finds out about, it is revealed. I am not firmly convinced that we really totally understand just what is happening at the time of baptism into Jesus. The one thing that I am sure of is that if Jesus saw it important enough to say to do it - it should be done. For Him to address it shows that it is much more than 'getting wet" - for Jesus only spoke and directed to be done the will of God.

So another thing that we can be certain of - it is the will of God. If the will of God - IMPORTANT and to be followed.

 

[Shaun]

There's a difference between something that should be done and something that saves us.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Shaun
There's a difference between something that should be done and something that saves us.

Thank God for somebody who understands.

 

[Kevin]

Typical Freak response...

Typical Freak response...

Freak,

Originally posted by Kevin
Freak,





The Creator saves, not the created.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm glad to hear you agree with me & Scripture.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, again, my question, do we have to be reborn to make it to heaven?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You have to have Jesus to get eternal life not water.

How typical of you, Freak. You should get into politics. It seems you are incable of answering the simplest of questions. Don't you realize how bad your postion looks when you can't even deal with a simple yes or no question?

I answered your question straight out, but you can't answer me. You know why? Because the false doctrine can't answer the truth, as you have proven time and time again.

I guess I shouldn't expect too much out of you. You have problems answering questions in general. Many people have seen it. Will you ever take the blindfold off?

Please don't bother responding to me until you are ready to actually answer my simple question.

 

[Shaun]

Freak:
Don't worry. The number of people who believe in salvation by works is actually quite small. They just happen to populate Internet forums more than salvation by grace people.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Shaun
Freak:
Don't worry. The number of people who believe in salvation by works is actually quite small. They just happen to populate Internet forums more than salvation by grace people.

You might be right but nevertheless concerned.

 

[Elias]

Love and kindness goes a long way with the Father

Love and kindness goes a long way with the Father

Baptized in the fire of the Holy Spirit

That is the only way to become fully emerced

But as Christians we enjoy following Jesus example

One very important example is showing your love and compassion for others.

You . ...?

God Bless

PEACE

 

[rene]

Shaun writes: There's a difference between something that should be done and something that saves us.

My reply: AGREE! One is the actions of one who's heart really IS seeking and following the words and teachings of Jesus. For those that can't seem to do it - does make one ponder just what it is that they are following since they can't do something so simple.

Again, the point that there is no person coming to the Lord that is spoken of as having not been baptized. So baptism - no matter what the reason - was something that all believers had in common. That is unless you can show even ONE that wasn't baptized.

 

[rene]

Did Jesus do a 'work' when He was baptized? I know that you know as well as I - if I have read your comments correctly know that Jesus did in fact followed the will of His Father and reflected God's will in every thing that He did.

ANY can go up and get publically dunked - but that doesn't make it baptism. Those that think because they do this that someone that makes the 'ok' are mistaken.

It is when one follows because they wish to reflect and follow the words of Jesus that it isn't a work - but an act of love, respect, and earnestely following His actions and words.

Originally posted by Shaun
Freak:
Don't worry. The number of people who believe in salvation by works is actually quite small. They just happen to populate Internet forums more than salvation by grace people.

 

[rene]

Elias writes: Baptized in the fire of the Holy Spirit

That is the only way to become fully emerced

My reply: Do you have any biblical support for that statement?

 

[Shaun]

rene: That's great. James and I agree--faith without works is dead. Yes, I have been baptized. That is not the issue here. We are debating whether or not baptism is a requirement for salvation--not if it is a measure of good faith and obedience. In that we are in agreement.

There's a difference between faith and salvation. Faith is the means that we get to salvation. There is no working around this, the moment in which we are saved:

Romans 10:8-10
8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Baptism is an act of obedience to the Lord that affirms their belief to men that one should do after they are saved. The baptism does not seal salvation--rather, it shows the believers public affirmation of the faith. I am not worried whether men know that I am saved. I am only worried about one--my Lord.

The only work of us that determines our salvation is this:
John 6:28-29
28Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."