The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
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Kevin
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c.moore,
No, we are not trying to "earn" our salvation by doing His commandments. I have already explained why we are to obey them. You cannot deny that obeying His commandments has a bearing upon our salvation, for if we don't do them, we are liars, and will go to hell. Anytime the result of not doing something leads to hell, it's certainly a salvation issue.
I know that God poured out His grace upon us, knowing that there is nothing we could do to "earn" that grace. We are all sinners, therefore how could we earn it? God poured out His grace when He didn't have to, that's the free gift.
But God certainly did set conditions for obtaining that grace. If it was a free gift in the sense that you believe, then everybody should be going to heaven, because you don't think that people have to do anything to qualify for His grace. The fact is that not everybody will go to heaven. Why? Because they didn't do something on their part to obtain that grace. Even believing is something man must do to be saved. All of the sudden we have a condition for obtaining that grace. Are we "earning" our salvation by meeting the requirements of belief? No. Neither are we earning our salvation by doing His commandments.
So why are we to obey His commandments? Certainly not to "earn" salvation, but because God does not tolerate the disobedient, for they are liars, and the truth is not in them. Liars will not be in heaven.
Agreed! If there is no change in a person, then they do not know Jesus! So, tell me, c.moore, if this person who doesn't change, if they believe in Jesus and still do not change, do you think that person will be saved? If you say "yes", then how do you reconcile your answer with your statement of "if there is no change whatsoever in a person I doubt that they know Jesus"? For if somebody doens't know Christ, how can they make it to heaven?
Again, see my comments above... we are not "earning" salvation by doing His commandments. This verse indeed shows dire consequences for not doing His commandments. The consequence is Hell, for that's exacly were "all liars" will be!
A person isn't a sheep in the first place until they obey what Jesus said in Mark 16:16 for salvation: Belief and baptism. Those are the qualifications that Jesus put on salvation - He who believes and is baptized! Now you can look at the end of that verse all you want, but that won't change the requirements that Jesus listed for salvation one tiny bit. You should know that something is wrong with your doctrine when you look for the requirements of salvation in the part of the verse that deals with damnation! If you want to know what to do to get saved, shouldn't you look at the part of the verse that deals with SALVATION?
I agree with this, but this doesn't change the fact that not doing His commandments has spiritually deadly consequences.
But we don't have Jesus until we put on Christ, which puts us in Christ. This is done through baptism (Gal. 3:27).
What I am saying is that if we don't obey His commandments, we are liars, and will not go to heaven (unless of course that person repents). That's what the Bible says.
As far as grace and commandments... see my above comments. And yes, I also agree that we are led by the Spirit, but neither the Spirit, nor Christ, will do the commandments for us.
No, what I'm asking is for you to show me a verse that says that the disobedient will have Jesus as their author of eternal salvation. Those who go to heaven are those who do His commandmetns (Rev 22:14). They will be in heaven because they are NOT liars, and truly know Jesus.
On the flipside, the Bible states that one who does not keep Christ's commandments, thus being disobedient, are liars... and liars will be in Hell. That's why you won't find a verse that says that the disobedient will have rights to the tree of life, because 1John 2:4 already says what will become of the disobedient- they are liars, who will have no part of heaven. Therefore, it is impossible (unless they repent) for them to have Jesus as their author of eternal salvation, for they don't kow Him, being liars.
But there are conditions! Do you have to believe? Yes, that something we must do! Do you have to obey His commandments? YES, because if you don't then you are a liar who will go to hell, if not repented of. Jesus Himself put conditions upon salvation in Mark 16:16: belief and baptism! If there were truly no conditions, then Jesus would have said something like "There is nothing that anybody has to do in order to be saved. Everybody is saved." But the fact is, Jesus did indeed list requirements for salvation, thus, He has then set conditions that are to be met for one to be saved. Simple.
No, we are not trying to "earn" our salvation by doing His commandments. I have already explained why we are to obey them. You cannot deny that obeying His commandments has a bearing upon our salvation, for if we don't do them, we are liars, and will go to hell. Anytime the result of not doing something leads to hell, it's certainly a salvation issue.
I know that God poured out His grace upon us, knowing that there is nothing we could do to "earn" that grace. We are all sinners, therefore how could we earn it? God poured out His grace when He didn't have to, that's the free gift.
But God certainly did set conditions for obtaining that grace. If it was a free gift in the sense that you believe, then everybody should be going to heaven, because you don't think that people have to do anything to qualify for His grace. The fact is that not everybody will go to heaven. Why? Because they didn't do something on their part to obtain that grace. Even believing is something man must do to be saved. All of the sudden we have a condition for obtaining that grace. Are we "earning" our salvation by meeting the requirements of belief? No. Neither are we earning our salvation by doing His commandments.
So why are we to obey His commandments? Certainly not to "earn" salvation, but because God does not tolerate the disobedient, for they are liars, and the truth is not in them. Liars will not be in heaven.
Agreed! If there is no change in a person, then they do not know Jesus! So, tell me, c.moore, if this person who doesn't change, if they believe in Jesus and still do not change, do you think that person will be saved? If you say "yes", then how do you reconcile your answer with your statement of "if there is no change whatsoever in a person I doubt that they know Jesus"? For if somebody doens't know Christ, how can they make it to heaven?
Again, see my comments above... we are not "earning" salvation by doing His commandments. This verse indeed shows dire consequences for not doing His commandments. The consequence is Hell, for that's exacly were "all liars" will be!
A person isn't a sheep in the first place until they obey what Jesus said in Mark 16:16 for salvation: Belief and baptism. Those are the qualifications that Jesus put on salvation - He who believes and is baptized! Now you can look at the end of that verse all you want, but that won't change the requirements that Jesus listed for salvation one tiny bit. You should know that something is wrong with your doctrine when you look for the requirements of salvation in the part of the verse that deals with damnation! If you want to know what to do to get saved, shouldn't you look at the part of the verse that deals with SALVATION?
I agree with this, but this doesn't change the fact that not doing His commandments has spiritually deadly consequences.
But we don't have Jesus until we put on Christ, which puts us in Christ. This is done through baptism (Gal. 3:27).
What I am saying is that if we don't obey His commandments, we are liars, and will not go to heaven (unless of course that person repents). That's what the Bible says.
As far as grace and commandments... see my above comments. And yes, I also agree that we are led by the Spirit, but neither the Spirit, nor Christ, will do the commandments for us.
No, what I'm asking is for you to show me a verse that says that the disobedient will have Jesus as their author of eternal salvation. Those who go to heaven are those who do His commandmetns (Rev 22:14). They will be in heaven because they are NOT liars, and truly know Jesus.
On the flipside, the Bible states that one who does not keep Christ's commandments, thus being disobedient, are liars... and liars will be in Hell. That's why you won't find a verse that says that the disobedient will have rights to the tree of life, because 1John 2:4 already says what will become of the disobedient- they are liars, who will have no part of heaven. Therefore, it is impossible (unless they repent) for them to have Jesus as their author of eternal salvation, for they don't kow Him, being liars.
But there are conditions! Do you have to believe? Yes, that something we must do! Do you have to obey His commandments? YES, because if you don't then you are a liar who will go to hell, if not repented of. Jesus Himself put conditions upon salvation in Mark 16:16: belief and baptism! If there were truly no conditions, then Jesus would have said something like "There is nothing that anybody has to do in order to be saved. Everybody is saved." But the fact is, Jesus did indeed list requirements for salvation, thus, He has then set conditions that are to be met for one to be saved. Simple.
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HopeofGlory
New member
Kevin,
Roms 7:17
In Christ
Craig
Roms 7:17
In Christ
Craig
Kevin
New member
HopeofGlory,
Romans 7:15-20 is speaking of Paul's inner struggle with sin. He talks about his frustration that he does the things he hates (verse 15). In verse 17, when he says "it is no long I who do it" (sinning), he is not trying to escape moral responsibility for his sins by saying that he literally doesn't sin, but rather is illustrating how sin can have control over a Christian's life. Paul wants to do righteous things, yet he sins, and does the things he does not want to do. It is the sin within him that causes him to do it.
Romans 7:15-20 is speaking of Paul's inner struggle with sin. He talks about his frustration that he does the things he hates (verse 15). In verse 17, when he says "it is no long I who do it" (sinning), he is not trying to escape moral responsibility for his sins by saying that he literally doesn't sin, but rather is illustrating how sin can have control over a Christian's life. Paul wants to do righteous things, yet he sins, and does the things he does not want to do. It is the sin within him that causes him to do it.
Evangelion
New member
Any news on the "Why was Cornelius baptised even after he'd received the Holy Spirit?" question?
agape
New member
Sorry, no news because Cornelius was never water baptized. Peter knew and believed what Christ said right before he ascended into heaven; "John truly baptized with water, BUT ye shall be baptized with the HOLY GHOST...." Peter understood what the word "BUT" meant.Originally posted by Evangelion
Any news on the "Why was Cornelius baptised even after he'd received the Holy Spirit?" question?
Kevin
New member
Evangelion,
Unfortunately not.
Welcome back! Did you get your DSL yet? I asked in your "absence" thread if you could email me your new email address. Could you do that when you get a chance? Thanks.
P.S.- Did you see your "absence" thread? Hehe... it's funny how somebody can announce their absence and then the thread takes off in a whole different direction.
Unfortunately not.
Welcome back! Did you get your DSL yet? I asked in your "absence" thread if you could email me your new email address. Could you do that when you get a chance? Thanks.
P.S.- Did you see your "absence" thread? Hehe... it's funny how somebody can announce their absence and then the thread takes off in a whole different direction.
c.moore
New member
hi Kevin
Now to stay strong and a good faithful servant pleasing the Lord Jesus we should obey so we can be blessed and have long life and be prosperious.
you said:We are all sinners, therefore how could we earn it? God poured out His grace when He didn't have to, that's the free gift.
NO, God poured out His love for us and gave us a chance to be save and have salvation by the dieing of Jesus Christ on the cross.
The blood of Jesus on the cross is the key and way and everlasting life , and Jesus was obedient for us on the cross dieing for all of us and everybody praise God, but the work of the cross is only work to those who trust and accept the blood of Jesus, and had believed and repented.
I see here that this is the main problem on this thread water baptismal is because there is a lack of understanding of what grace is, and what the blood of Jesus does for us.
For some reason Kevin you have a whole different teaching on grace and favor of the Lord, and the blood of Jesus, which distorts the good news of Christ.
Many religion like Muslims, JHW, and Mormon can not understand Grace, and they can`t except the easy gift of grace , and the grace walk. I have read a good book that explain grace so simple biblically, and natually called grace Walk by Steve McVey.
I recieve the book as a gift for my birth day from one of the elders in my church, and it help change my life because I was alway fighting to work for my salvation and try to do works, and obey commandment to stay in the kingdom of God, and that was hard work and stress , and condemnation because I was not sure if I did the commands correct or enough of them being done. I thought maybe God was mad at me not doing enough or not obeying all the comandments, and I was on my way to hell, like you said if we don`t obey the commandments we are a liar, and I thought and was not sure if I was a servant or a liar, and again that heavy ,heavy , stress and doubt, and depression was risen in me day by day before God revealed to me the understanding of the cross, and grace.
it was like 1000 pounds taken off of me praise God , I was sure of my salvation , and I was free indeed.
Kevin I just was looking for some more pictures to put in the TOL gallerie of mye and my family, and I came acrossed by baptism certificate.
I found out that in one of my water baptism sence I was baptized three times I was baptized the last time in the church called Mission church of Christ in 1994, and I read some of the belief of the church and they sound like your church.
Is your church the Church of Christ also??
I remember when I was getting baptized in that church I didn`t even know it was a baptism untill they said take off my clothes .
I didn`t even have a chance to tell them I was already baptized, they was just excited to get another person in the water no matter what.
I felt like a fool afterwards. A matter of fact I will send the pastor a e-mail of that matter in love.
But please Kevin see if you can get this book I mention ,it will set you free , and others of doing commandment for salvation , or think you are a liar , while you are a child of God.
We are either for Jesus, or against Him.
We are either A christian or A sinner.
We either walk as a follower of Christ or we follow our flesh and lieing ways.
I will write down some of the facts taken from the book Grace walk that might open your heart up to the truth and be free indeed.
peace
Now to stay strong and a good faithful servant pleasing the Lord Jesus we should obey so we can be blessed and have long life and be prosperious.
you said:We are all sinners, therefore how could we earn it? God poured out His grace when He didn't have to, that's the free gift.
NO, God poured out His love for us and gave us a chance to be save and have salvation by the dieing of Jesus Christ on the cross.
The blood of Jesus on the cross is the key and way and everlasting life , and Jesus was obedient for us on the cross dieing for all of us and everybody praise God, but the work of the cross is only work to those who trust and accept the blood of Jesus, and had believed and repented.
I see here that this is the main problem on this thread water baptismal is because there is a lack of understanding of what grace is, and what the blood of Jesus does for us.
For some reason Kevin you have a whole different teaching on grace and favor of the Lord, and the blood of Jesus, which distorts the good news of Christ.
Many religion like Muslims, JHW, and Mormon can not understand Grace, and they can`t except the easy gift of grace , and the grace walk. I have read a good book that explain grace so simple biblically, and natually called grace Walk by Steve McVey.
I recieve the book as a gift for my birth day from one of the elders in my church, and it help change my life because I was alway fighting to work for my salvation and try to do works, and obey commandment to stay in the kingdom of God, and that was hard work and stress , and condemnation because I was not sure if I did the commands correct or enough of them being done. I thought maybe God was mad at me not doing enough or not obeying all the comandments, and I was on my way to hell, like you said if we don`t obey the commandments we are a liar, and I thought and was not sure if I was a servant or a liar, and again that heavy ,heavy , stress and doubt, and depression was risen in me day by day before God revealed to me the understanding of the cross, and grace.
it was like 1000 pounds taken off of me praise God , I was sure of my salvation , and I was free indeed.
Kevin I just was looking for some more pictures to put in the TOL gallerie of mye and my family, and I came acrossed by baptism certificate.
I found out that in one of my water baptism sence I was baptized three times I was baptized the last time in the church called Mission church of Christ in 1994, and I read some of the belief of the church and they sound like your church.
Is your church the Church of Christ also??
I remember when I was getting baptized in that church I didn`t even know it was a baptism untill they said take off my clothes .
I didn`t even have a chance to tell them I was already baptized, they was just excited to get another person in the water no matter what.
I felt like a fool afterwards. A matter of fact I will send the pastor a e-mail of that matter in love.
But please Kevin see if you can get this book I mention ,it will set you free , and others of doing commandment for salvation , or think you are a liar , while you are a child of God.
We are either for Jesus, or against Him.
We are either A christian or A sinner.
We either walk as a follower of Christ or we follow our flesh and lieing ways.
I will write down some of the facts taken from the book Grace walk that might open your heart up to the truth and be free indeed.
peace
agape
New member
HopeofGlory,
Romans 7:15:
For that which I do I allow not; for that I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
In other words, Paul says, "I do that which I do not approve. I "do" what I "do not" want to do, and I "do not" do what I "do" want to do." Paul could not do what he wanted to do because of the flesh.
Galatians 5:17:
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
On one side is the flesh, influenced by the god of this world, Satan; and on the other side the spirit of God within.
Romans 7:16:
If then I do that which I would not [do], I consent unto the law that it is good.
The Law of Moses was good. Romans 3:20 states that "by the law is the knowledge of sin." Sin is the evil nature within man. From looking at the law Paul realized that his sins, his weakness, came from the influence of sin in his flesh, not from his inward man (Christ within) which desired to do God's Word.
Romans 17, 18:
Now then, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
It is no longer "I" his inward man, the new man, the new Paul with Christ in him that sins, but the sin that dwells in his flesh.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh), dwelleth no good thing: for to will [to do good] is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not.
When we look to our flesh, we cannot find a way to do good because of the prevailing influence of sin dwelling in the flesh.
Paul truly believed all that Christ consummated for him through his death and resurrection and therefore knew that his true identity was his new man, his new nature only. We identify with Christ in that our old man of sin was crucified with Christ and is therefore spiritually dead. We are to reckon our old man dead and walk after the spirit because we also identify with his resurrection and we can now walk in the newness of life. Paul knew that the problem was the sin nature which still dwelled in the flesh. Paul was not relinquishing his reponsibilty for his actions. The verse is stating that he understood that the sin nature was the cause of the problem, and the real man was the Christ within.
Romans 7:21,22:
I find then a law, that, when I would [want to] do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man.
The inward man, the Christ within, the one with whom he was identified, and in whom we are indentified, delighted in the law of God.
Romans 7:23:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
The more of God's Word believed and lived accordingingly, the more spiritually minded we will become; "...to be spiritually minded is life and peace." Our delight is in the law of God, after the inward man, which is Christ in us, the hope of glory. We will remain with this body of death till the Lord returns and gives us our new bodies where only our new man, the nature and life of God can dwell.
Romans 7:15:
For that which I do I allow not; for that I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
In other words, Paul says, "I do that which I do not approve. I "do" what I "do not" want to do, and I "do not" do what I "do" want to do." Paul could not do what he wanted to do because of the flesh.
Galatians 5:17:
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
On one side is the flesh, influenced by the god of this world, Satan; and on the other side the spirit of God within.
Romans 7:16:
If then I do that which I would not [do], I consent unto the law that it is good.
The Law of Moses was good. Romans 3:20 states that "by the law is the knowledge of sin." Sin is the evil nature within man. From looking at the law Paul realized that his sins, his weakness, came from the influence of sin in his flesh, not from his inward man (Christ within) which desired to do God's Word.
Romans 17, 18:
Now then, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
It is no longer "I" his inward man, the new man, the new Paul with Christ in him that sins, but the sin that dwells in his flesh.
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh), dwelleth no good thing: for to will [to do good] is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not.
When we look to our flesh, we cannot find a way to do good because of the prevailing influence of sin dwelling in the flesh.
Paul truly believed all that Christ consummated for him through his death and resurrection and therefore knew that his true identity was his new man, his new nature only. We identify with Christ in that our old man of sin was crucified with Christ and is therefore spiritually dead. We are to reckon our old man dead and walk after the spirit because we also identify with his resurrection and we can now walk in the newness of life. Paul knew that the problem was the sin nature which still dwelled in the flesh. Paul was not relinquishing his reponsibilty for his actions. The verse is stating that he understood that the sin nature was the cause of the problem, and the real man was the Christ within.
Romans 7:21,22:
I find then a law, that, when I would [want to] do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man.
The inward man, the Christ within, the one with whom he was identified, and in whom we are indentified, delighted in the law of God.
Romans 7:23:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
The more of God's Word believed and lived accordingingly, the more spiritually minded we will become; "...to be spiritually minded is life and peace." Our delight is in the law of God, after the inward man, which is Christ in us, the hope of glory. We will remain with this body of death till the Lord returns and gives us our new bodies where only our new man, the nature and life of God can dwell.
c.moore
New member
Originally posted by c.moore
hello Agape
You said
Quote c.moore
See This is why I started the thread what scripture is water baptism and spiritual baptism.
Well Agape I see it like this.
I know like you do that water baptism is not salvation and that`s for sure ,but if we are saved we should get water baptized as we do our christian walk and knowing jesus by following Jesus.
Water baptism is just a symbol, and I think you agree , and no way salvation,and they already believed so they were saved before any water baptism.
Ac:10:43: To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
We see here that anybody can be saved by belief on Jesus and repentance of sins before any water baptism because we know it sins that depart us from Christ only.
Ac:10:44: While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Ac:10:45: And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Here we see plainly that they was baptized in the Holy Ghost after they believed, and heard the Word of God.
We also see that preaching the gospel is the introduction and offer for salvation, and second is remission of sins and the baptism of the Spirit, so we can see this in these verse I showed.
So let`s continue Agape praise God!
Ac:10:46: For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
this verse is the evidence that they recieved the Holy Ghost baptism, and now Peter is saying this after all this has happen.
Ac:10:47: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
I see this that everybody knew about John the baptist water baptism ,but they also realized the importance and the real baptism which everybody tarryed and waited for the spiritual baptism,so peter didn`t what anybody to say we shouldn`t let them do water baptism , and forbid it, because I believe Peter knew these people understood what the real baptism is, and that the water baptism was just for them a traditional ritual that they just wanted to do as a symbol, not salvation because they knew they had salvation we they believed and repented praise God.
I hope you can see it like me,and please feel free to correct me where I am wrong some where.
Ac:10:48: And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Now this is the ice on the cake Agape about water baptism becáuse he now tells them to get water baptized in the Name of Christ Jesus.
If this is a Spiritual baptism in this verse then this would mean they got spiritual baptized twice because in verse 47 they have already recieved the Spiritual Baptism which is mention in that verse.
This is also proof that when somebody says we can`t get the baptism of the Holy Spirit until we are water baptism don`t know what they are talking about , and they have false biblical information, and will be decieved and not rightly dividing the Word of truth.
Now in Ac:11:14: Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Ac:11:15: And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Again we see in verse 14 the house was first saved and as the Word was preached the anointing came on them and they got Spiritual baptized ,and if this happen to them from the beginning this mean they spoke in tongue like in the beginning when they were Spiritual baptized praise God.
Ac:11:16: Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Now this is again proof they got Spiritual baptized and there is no mention of them being water baptised so I can agree this is only a Spiritual baptism.
But you must realize that there is a message about John water baptism which many did practise, but this is still no proof that they did the water ritual baptism in this verse.
I MYSELF or my personal thinking is that they could have got water baptized but my opinion is not biblical according to what this verse is really saying, so I just asume they might have got alsowater baptized but no way for salvation,or to get saved , they didn´t have to get save twice either according to the verse 14.
agape your doing a blessed work for the Lord, and I thank God that you are a Child of God praise God.
God Bless you
I mean this above did you understand or agree with what I said??
God bless
Kevin
New member
Who do you think you are?
Who do you think you are?
Agape,
Uneducated? Coming from somebody who cant grasp simple concept that to do something with the mouth actually means using the mouth, your comment hold little weight.
I'm also educated enough to realize that when Peter says "Can anyone forbid WATER, that these should not be BAPTIZED..." that he means just what he says... that these people should be BAPTIZED in WATER, just like the eunuch was BAPTIZED in WATER in Acts 8:38.
As far as the "BUT" issue, Peter was just recalling how they recieved Spirit baptism in Acts 2:3-4, which game them power. The same thing happened to the Gentiles, they recieved Spirit baptism just as the apsotles did, and Peter recalled the phrase "but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit". Big deal. This doesn't change the fact that they needed to be baptized in WATER in the name of the Lord, and they were.
Your posts show that you are in no position critisize other people's education, for you are sorely lacking, full of hot air, and loaded with absurdities, hypocrite.
Who do you think you are?
Agape,
Uneducated? Coming from somebody who cant grasp simple concept that to do something with the mouth actually means using the mouth, your comment hold little weight.
I'm also educated enough to realize that when Peter says "Can anyone forbid WATER, that these should not be BAPTIZED..." that he means just what he says... that these people should be BAPTIZED in WATER, just like the eunuch was BAPTIZED in WATER in Acts 8:38.
As far as the "BUT" issue, Peter was just recalling how they recieved Spirit baptism in Acts 2:3-4, which game them power. The same thing happened to the Gentiles, they recieved Spirit baptism just as the apsotles did, and Peter recalled the phrase "but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit". Big deal. This doesn't change the fact that they needed to be baptized in WATER in the name of the Lord, and they were.
Your posts show that you are in no position critisize other people's education, for you are sorely lacking, full of hot air, and loaded with absurdities, hypocrite.
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agape
New member
Hmmm...I know I replied to this, but can't find it. Oh well, here it goes again.
I don't find it necessary for me to have to reiterate what I have already stated. I gave my explanation for Acts 10 concerning Cornelius and his household and that is what I believe.
Those who believe in water baptism and teach this have taken the "BUT" in Acts 1:5 and replaced it with an "AND".
I was taught all about water baptism and I believed in it many, many years ago. However, when I decided that I was going to go to the Scriptures and do II Timothy 2:15, I discovered that water baptism had a "but" to it after Jesus Christ died and was resurrected. "BUT" was even said by John the baptist himself. I understood that water baptism saved no one and was only a foreshadow of the greater baptism that would be done by Christ. I didn't have a problem then with the word "but" then and I still do not now. There is only baptism today and that is the baptism with the holy spirit.
I do not condemn anyone who believes water baptism is necessary. The main thing is that they are saved by believing Jesus Christ as their savior from sin and that God raised him from the dead. When this is believed from the heart, then baptism with the holy spirit immediately takes place.
This is what I believe and if you believe the same, then we are in agreement.
God bless you.
agape
New member
Re: Kevin...Who do you think you are?
Re: Kevin...Who do you think you are?
I strongly suggest that you continue to study Romans 10:9, Acts 10 AND 11, and Acts 8:38, because you failed in understanding all categories.
All this time and you still have not proven that water baptism is necessary for salvation and you know it. You can't even explain the whys and wherefores of water baptism being necessary or a part of salvation. To be baptized with the holy spirit is to received God's gift of holy spirit in us which gives us eternal life-spirit and the power to walk with God and operate the manifestations of the gift of holy spirit which you will NEVER RECEIVE by adding mere H20.
Also, another lesson you can learn is that calling people names and being nasty makes you even look more uneducated.
Re: Kevin...Who do you think you are?
Yes, you are uneducated and will continue to be unless you understand the word "BUT" YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST...."
I strongly suggest that you continue to study Romans 10:9, Acts 10 AND 11, and Acts 8:38, because you failed in understanding all categories.
LOL...squeezing in more PI...and you call me a hypocrite? Pretty funny. The Gentiles were baptized with the holy spirit and were saved and received eternal life. Even John said "but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost." Who was he talking to? The Apostles only...NO. It was to all those who believed in Christ and were baptized with the symbolic baptism of water only. Stop trying to "water" it down to fit "your" beliefs because God is a lot more smarter than you. It becomes more clear that you don't even know what you are talking about.
All this time and you still have not proven that water baptism is necessary for salvation and you know it. You can't even explain the whys and wherefores of water baptism being necessary or a part of salvation. To be baptized with the holy spirit is to received God's gift of holy spirit in us which gives us eternal life-spirit and the power to walk with God and operate the manifestations of the gift of holy spirit which you will NEVER RECEIVE by adding mere H20.
Also, another lesson you can learn is that calling people names and being nasty makes you even look more uneducated.
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Kevin
New member
Agape,
I fully aware of the meaning of the word "BUT". HS baptism does not happen to everybody. I've heard the gospel... why didn't the flaming tongues rest upon my head? Why?
Oh, you mean "hypocrite"? The word that Jesus used also? Gee, I guess He really looked uneducated when He called people hypocrites! Yes, I stand behind what I said because what I see in your posts shows a lack biblical undertanding, then you go and critisize other people's education. Yes, you are a hypocrite.
I fully aware of the meaning of the word "BUT".
HS baptism does not happen to everybody. I've heard the gospel... why didn't the flaming tongues rest upon my head? Why?Oh, you mean "hypocrite"? The word that Jesus used also?
Gee, I guess He really looked uneducated when He called people hypocrites! Yes, I stand behind what I said because what I see in your posts shows a lack biblical undertanding, then you go and critisize other people's education. Yes, you are a hypocrite.agape,
As an outsider just reading this thread for the first time, you appear to be the less educated one here. Not only do you continuously use poor grammar ('God is more smarter than you are' is grammatically redundant), which is a reflection of how you must speak, you are being very condescending which makes you look even more uneducated, and obnoxiously arrogant.
But here is a chance for you to exhibit your lofty intellect. I have cited below quotations from many of the early church fathers who wrote on the subject of baptism. Each of these individuals is in disagreement with your position. Please explain why we should accept your lofty explanation on the subject over these learned scholars.
Justin Martyr
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Irenaeus
"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).
Tertullian
"[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’" (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).
Hippolytus
"The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism" (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 [A.D. 217]).
The Recognitions of Clement
"But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (The Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’" (Letters 71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).
Council of Carthage VII
"And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ" (Seventh Carthage [A.D. 256]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it" (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).
Athanasius
"[A]s we are all from earth and die in Adam, so being regenerated from above of water and Spirit, in the Christ we are all quickened" (Four Discourses Against the Arians 3:26[33] [A.D. 360]).
Basil the Great
"This then is what it means to be ‘born again of water and Spirit’: Just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit’s presence there" (The Holy Spirit 15:35 [A.D. 375]).
Ambrose of Milan
"Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former, and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God" (The Holy Spirit 1:6[75–76] [A.D. 381]).
"The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11–12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism.
. . . ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’" (Abraham 2:11:79–84 [A.D. 387]).
"You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in baptism are one: water, blood, and the Spirit (1 John 5:8): And if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water, for ‘unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’" (The Mysteries 4:20 [A.D. 390]).
Gregory of Nyssa
"[In] the birth by water and the Spirit, [Jesus] himself led the way in this birth, drawing down upon the water, by his own baptism, the Holy Spirit; so that in all things he became the firstborn of those who are spiritually born again, and gave the name of brethren to those who partook in a birth like to his own by water and the Spirit" (Against Eunomius 2:8 [A.D. 382]).
John Chrysostom
"[N]o one can enter into the kingdom of heaven except he be regenerated through water and the Spirit, and he who does not eat the flesh of the Lord and drink his blood is excluded from eternal life, and if all these things are accomplished only by means of those holy hands, I mean the hands of the priest, how will any one, without these, be able to escape the fire of hell, or to win those crowns which are reserved for the victorious? These [priests] truly are they who are entrusted with the pangs of spiritual travail and the birth which comes through baptism: by their means we put on Christ, and are buried with the Son of God, and become members of that blessed head [the Mystical Body of Christ]" (The Priesthood 3:5–6 [A.D. 387]).
Gregory of Nazianz
"Such is the grace and power of baptism; not an overwhelming of the world as of old, but a purification of the sins of each individual, and a complete cleansing from all the bruises and stains of sin. And since we are double-made, I mean of body and soul, and the one part is visible, the other invisible, so the cleansing also is twofold, by water and the Spirit; the one received visibly in the body, the other concurring with it invisibly and apart from the body; the one typical, the other real and cleansing the depths" (Oration on Holy Baptism 7–8 [A.D. 388]).
The Apostolic Constitutions
"Be ye likewise contented with one baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13]. . . . [H]e that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, ‘Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ And again, ‘He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned’" [Mark 16:16] (Apostolic Constitutions 6:3:15 [A.D. 400]).
Augustine
"It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.’ The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 412]).
As an outsider just reading this thread for the first time, you appear to be the less educated one here. Not only do you continuously use poor grammar ('God is more smarter than you are' is grammatically redundant), which is a reflection of how you must speak, you are being very condescending which makes you look even more uneducated, and obnoxiously arrogant.
But here is a chance for you to exhibit your lofty intellect. I have cited below quotations from many of the early church fathers who wrote on the subject of baptism. Each of these individuals is in disagreement with your position. Please explain why we should accept your lofty explanation on the subject over these learned scholars.
Justin Martyr
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Irenaeus
"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).
Tertullian
"[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’" (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).
Hippolytus
"The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism" (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 [A.D. 217]).
The Recognitions of Clement
"But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (The Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’" (Letters 71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).
Council of Carthage VII
"And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ" (Seventh Carthage [A.D. 256]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it" (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).
Athanasius
"[A]s we are all from earth and die in Adam, so being regenerated from above of water and Spirit, in the Christ we are all quickened" (Four Discourses Against the Arians 3:26[33] [A.D. 360]).
Basil the Great
"This then is what it means to be ‘born again of water and Spirit’: Just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit’s presence there" (The Holy Spirit 15:35 [A.D. 375]).
Ambrose of Milan
"Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former, and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God" (The Holy Spirit 1:6[75–76] [A.D. 381]).
"The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11–12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism.
. . . ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’" (Abraham 2:11:79–84 [A.D. 387]).
"You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in baptism are one: water, blood, and the Spirit (1 John 5:8): And if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water, for ‘unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’" (The Mysteries 4:20 [A.D. 390]).
Gregory of Nyssa
"[In] the birth by water and the Spirit, [Jesus] himself led the way in this birth, drawing down upon the water, by his own baptism, the Holy Spirit; so that in all things he became the firstborn of those who are spiritually born again, and gave the name of brethren to those who partook in a birth like to his own by water and the Spirit" (Against Eunomius 2:8 [A.D. 382]).
John Chrysostom
"[N]o one can enter into the kingdom of heaven except he be regenerated through water and the Spirit, and he who does not eat the flesh of the Lord and drink his blood is excluded from eternal life, and if all these things are accomplished only by means of those holy hands, I mean the hands of the priest, how will any one, without these, be able to escape the fire of hell, or to win those crowns which are reserved for the victorious? These [priests] truly are they who are entrusted with the pangs of spiritual travail and the birth which comes through baptism: by their means we put on Christ, and are buried with the Son of God, and become members of that blessed head [the Mystical Body of Christ]" (The Priesthood 3:5–6 [A.D. 387]).
Gregory of Nazianz
"Such is the grace and power of baptism; not an overwhelming of the world as of old, but a purification of the sins of each individual, and a complete cleansing from all the bruises and stains of sin. And since we are double-made, I mean of body and soul, and the one part is visible, the other invisible, so the cleansing also is twofold, by water and the Spirit; the one received visibly in the body, the other concurring with it invisibly and apart from the body; the one typical, the other real and cleansing the depths" (Oration on Holy Baptism 7–8 [A.D. 388]).
The Apostolic Constitutions
"Be ye likewise contented with one baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13]. . . . [H]e that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, ‘Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ And again, ‘He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned’" [Mark 16:16] (Apostolic Constitutions 6:3:15 [A.D. 400]).
Augustine
"It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.’ The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 412]).