Evangelion
New member
Still no answer to my question about Cornelius and his family?
Never mind.
Never mind.
The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
agape
New member
The theif on the cross "believed" in Christ and will be in Paradise when Christ returns to earth.
Quoted by AV,
If two men, one a Christian and the other an atheist, are flying a plane over a desert, and the Christian ends up converting the atheist during the flight, but the plane crash lands into the dry desert where there is no water. Will the atheist go to sheol *for argument sake* because he was not baptized??
When the Christian converted the atheist and he believed, he was baptized with the holy spirit and he is saved, born again and has eternal life. No use for water.
Evangelion
New member
As I already explained, this is an exception to the rule. It does not reflect the general practice.
Now, am I going to get an answer to my question, or not?
Now, am I going to get an answer to my question, or not?
Kevin
New member
c.moore,
Yes, but that doesn't mean that He is going to keep the commandments that He ordered me to do! None of this changes the fact that Jesus commanded man to keep His commandments, not Himself.
Well, kinda. You didn't really tell me whether or not you believe if this is referring to Judgement Day.
The people in Matt. 25: 31-46 were seperated into two groups. How could this be done without being judged, c.moore? Then there's the account of Judgement Day spoken of in Rev. 20:11-15. Those people were judged by their works, and the ones who's names were not found in the book of Life were thrown into the Lake of fire. So how can you say that Judgement Day doesn't effect our salvation? After being judged, people go to one place or another, just as spoken of in Matt 25:31-46. In both cases (Matt. 25 and Rev 20), people were judged and sent to their final destination.
Yes, but that doesn't mean that He is going to keep the commandments that He ordered me to do! None of this changes the fact that Jesus commanded man to keep His commandments, not Himself.
Well, kinda. You didn't really tell me whether or not you believe if this is referring to Judgement Day.
The people in Matt. 25: 31-46 were seperated into two groups. How could this be done without being judged, c.moore? Then there's the account of Judgement Day spoken of in Rev. 20:11-15. Those people were judged by their works, and the ones who's names were not found in the book of Life were thrown into the Lake of fire. So how can you say that Judgement Day doesn't effect our salvation? After being judged, people go to one place or another, just as spoken of in Matt 25:31-46. In both cases (Matt. 25 and Rev 20), people were judged and sent to their final destination.
c.moore
New member
Yes there will be a judgement for who is in the book of life and who isn`t, and who is a believer of Jesus,and accepted the blood of Jesus, and the people who don`t believe and didn`t accept the blood of Jesus.
the one who believe and has Jesus as thier personal savior in thier heart will not be judge because they are God sheeps.
the other people are the wolves and will end in the lake of fire those who are not washed in the blood , and have Jesus as thier personal father.
But the only judgement for God children will be for our rewards only that why I thought you understood about Ro:8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
So as long as Jesus is in us we have no CONDEMNATION, or NO HELL.
the judgement day is about be judged if you believe or not in Jesus , and if Jesus is in you or he is not in you as your personal savior .
Our works as a christian, and commandment is another thing,that why I quoted 1Co:3:15: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
let God bless you
c.moore
New member
kevin
if Jesus is in you what do you think Jesus will be doing in you??
Don´t you think Jesus while He is in you try to direct you to do the commandments and obey,because we as His sheep should hear his voice sence he is IN us??
I know the Jesus IN me wants me to obey the spirit,His character, so I can be a child that obey.
if Jesus is in you what do you think Jesus will be doing in you??
Don´t you think Jesus while He is in you try to direct you to do the commandments and obey,because we as His sheep should hear his voice sence he is IN us??
I know the Jesus IN me wants me to obey the spirit,His character, so I can be a child that obey.
JustAChristian
New member
WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT BAPTISM
WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT BAPTISM
Baptism is the point at which a person is united with Christ into His death and resurrection into "newness of life" (Rom 6:3)
There is only ONE recognized baptism. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism," (Eph 4:5)
There is not a spiritual baptism and a water baptism. The baptism recognized is the one instituted by Christ himself, which He said was in order to "fulfill ALL righteousness" (Mt 3:15). Even though Jesus was not baptized for the remission of sins, His baptism is the pattern for the baptism that is now recognized by God; one in which God becomes well-pleased in the one being baptized(Mt 3:17), one in which the Holy Spirit is received(Mt 3:16), one in which in its very form depicts the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus(Mt 3:16: "come UP straight way out of the WATER)--our baptism is validated by the events surrounding Christ's baptism.
Baptism is the point at which a person is IN CHRIST. We are joined to the Lord at this time. "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have PUT ON Christ." (Gal 3:27)
The apostle Peter ordered for converts in Cornelius' household to be baptized. "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." (Acts 10:47-48)
The apostle Paul commended the believers at Rome for their baptism "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that FORM of doctrine which was delivered you."(Rom 6:17)
At Pentecost, in the midst of Peter's sermon, the adherents to his message were pricked in their hearts and asked Peter, "What shall we do?"--moved to repentance. "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
Baptism is not a "good work", meaning that in baptism I am trying to earn my salvation. Baptism is the response of faith. Faith ALWAYS obeys--the "obedience OF FAITH" (Rom 16:26). In Mt 28:18ff, Jesus called for the baptism of all believers, and every TRUE believer seeks to do what pleases Jesus. Baptism is the working of faith in submissive response to the command of Jesus.
Some may say, if baptism saves us, then what about the theif on the cross? This is a special acception. Believe me, if that thief could have come down from that cross to be baptized, he would have done so! Doctrines that shape our consideration of baptism can not be shaped around this single incident. If this was a pattern for sound theology than we might as well start teaching that every person who lies will die instantly, as Ananias and Sapphira did.
When explaining good works, you said "but those who are saved but do no good works, still get in but have no special credit."
There is not a single passage of scripture to butress this ascertion. In fact the bible says, concerning those who are interested in eternal life, "To them who BY PATIENT CONTINUANCE IN WELL DOING seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:"(Rom 2:7), and again, "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. {9} And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, IF WE FAINT NOT." (Gal 6:8-9), and again, "And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they BE NOT UNFRUITFUL."(Titus 3:14), and again, "Every branch in me that BEARETH NOT FRUIT He(God, the Father) taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." (John 15:2) People that "do no good works" as you put it, do not have a shred of evidence of being connected to Christ and the eternal purpose of God, for Eph 2:10 says "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." "Good works" in this sense sre not works that earn salvation, but actions that are EVIDENCE of the working of salvation in a believer's life!--an important truth to see indeed!!
JustAChristian
WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT BAPTISM
Baptism is the point at which a person is united with Christ into His death and resurrection into "newness of life" (Rom 6:3)
There is only ONE recognized baptism. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism," (Eph 4:5)
There is not a spiritual baptism and a water baptism. The baptism recognized is the one instituted by Christ himself, which He said was in order to "fulfill ALL righteousness" (Mt 3:15). Even though Jesus was not baptized for the remission of sins, His baptism is the pattern for the baptism that is now recognized by God; one in which God becomes well-pleased in the one being baptized(Mt 3:17), one in which the Holy Spirit is received(Mt 3:16), one in which in its very form depicts the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus(Mt 3:16: "come UP straight way out of the WATER)--our baptism is validated by the events surrounding Christ's baptism.
Baptism is the point at which a person is IN CHRIST. We are joined to the Lord at this time. "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have PUT ON Christ." (Gal 3:27)
The apostle Peter ordered for converts in Cornelius' household to be baptized. "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." (Acts 10:47-48)
The apostle Paul commended the believers at Rome for their baptism "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that FORM of doctrine which was delivered you."(Rom 6:17)
At Pentecost, in the midst of Peter's sermon, the adherents to his message were pricked in their hearts and asked Peter, "What shall we do?"--moved to repentance. "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
Baptism is not a "good work", meaning that in baptism I am trying to earn my salvation. Baptism is the response of faith. Faith ALWAYS obeys--the "obedience OF FAITH" (Rom 16:26). In Mt 28:18ff, Jesus called for the baptism of all believers, and every TRUE believer seeks to do what pleases Jesus. Baptism is the working of faith in submissive response to the command of Jesus.
Some may say, if baptism saves us, then what about the theif on the cross? This is a special acception. Believe me, if that thief could have come down from that cross to be baptized, he would have done so! Doctrines that shape our consideration of baptism can not be shaped around this single incident. If this was a pattern for sound theology than we might as well start teaching that every person who lies will die instantly, as Ananias and Sapphira did.
When explaining good works, you said "but those who are saved but do no good works, still get in but have no special credit."
There is not a single passage of scripture to butress this ascertion. In fact the bible says, concerning those who are interested in eternal life, "To them who BY PATIENT CONTINUANCE IN WELL DOING seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:"(Rom 2:7), and again, "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. {9} And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, IF WE FAINT NOT." (Gal 6:8-9), and again, "And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they BE NOT UNFRUITFUL."(Titus 3:14), and again, "Every branch in me that BEARETH NOT FRUIT He(God, the Father) taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." (John 15:2) People that "do no good works" as you put it, do not have a shred of evidence of being connected to Christ and the eternal purpose of God, for Eph 2:10 says "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." "Good works" in this sense sre not works that earn salvation, but actions that are EVIDENCE of the working of salvation in a believer's life!--an important truth to see indeed!!
JustAChristian
Kevin
New member
c.moore,
As long as we dont' turn our backs on Christ, which we can do by not keeping His commandments, then yes, we are in good shape.
Wrong. It's more than being judged as to whether or not we believe in Jesus. That may be your version of Judgement Day, but the Bible says that we will be judged according to our works on Judgement Day (Rev. 20:12). It is by this we are judged, and by this we are found either worthy or not worthy of Heaven. See below for proof of this:
If believing on it's own was enough, then the people in Matt. 25:41-46 should have been saved, for they address Him as Lord. Tell me they didn't believe in Him. They did, but they weren't saved, because faith only isn't enough! They were found lacking, because they didn't do good works towards man (which you've agreed to). This is what happened to them when they were judged (Judgement Day).
Or what about the people spoken of in Matt. 7:21? They believed in Jesus, yet they were denied heaven because they did not DO the will of the Father. Here we have yet another passage that shows the necessity of obedience. How can one "DO" the will of the Father without works of obedience?
As long as we dont' turn our backs on Christ, which we can do by not keeping His commandments, then yes, we are in good shape.
Wrong. It's more than being judged as to whether or not we believe in Jesus. That may be your version of Judgement Day, but the Bible says that we will be judged according to our works on Judgement Day (Rev. 20:12). It is by this we are judged, and by this we are found either worthy or not worthy of Heaven. See below for proof of this:
If believing on it's own was enough, then the people in Matt. 25:41-46 should have been saved, for they address Him as Lord. Tell me they didn't believe in Him. They did, but they weren't saved, because faith only isn't enough! They were found lacking, because they didn't do good works towards man (which you've agreed to). This is what happened to them when they were judged (Judgement Day).
Or what about the people spoken of in Matt. 7:21? They believed in Jesus, yet they were denied heaven because they did not DO the will of the Father. Here we have yet another passage that shows the necessity of obedience. How can one "DO" the will of the Father without works of obedience?
Freak
New member
Kevin wrongly states: However, it is still ultimately up to me to do the commandments, not Christ. Christ will not do His own commandments for me.
That is simply absurd!
We are totally depraved. Paul makes that clear in Romans 3:10, 23. Any good comes through Christ working through us. You really have a warped theology, Kevin.
That is simply absurd!
We are totally depraved. Paul makes that clear in Romans 3:10, 23. Any good comes through Christ working through us. You really have a warped theology, Kevin.
P
Pilgrimagain
Guest
It doesn't happen often but I am in total agreement with Freak. No one needs to be bap''''''''tised to be saved and the good we do is that which Christ does through us.
Pilgrim
Pilgrim
Freak - your tulip is showing...
Freak - your tulip is showing...
Hey Freak -
I see you have surfaced once again. You must have needed some air.
I was thinking about your last post, but then I realized if you are correct, we should not read it as we can obtain no good from it. It just would not do any of us any good to read it,
However, because you are wrong - I will ask you to please give us a nice short exegesis of Romans 3:10 & 23, so that we can see your error in full and refute it.
Freak - your tulip is showing...
Hey Freak -
I see you have surfaced once again. You must have needed some air.
I was thinking about your last post, but then I realized if you are correct, we should not read it as we can obtain no good from it. It just would not do any of us any good to read it,
However, because you are wrong - I will ask you to please give us a nice short exegesis of Romans 3:10 & 23, so that we can see your error in full and refute it.
H'mong
New member
Kevin said,
I saw a quote of Just A Christian that I will post, "Baptism is not a "good work", meaning that in baptism I am trying to earn my salvation. Baptism is the response of faith. Faith ALWAYS obeys--the "obedience OF FAITH" (Rom 16:26). " While I don't agree with most of JAC post and interpret it differantly than him Baptism is the response of Faith. Generaly speaking , those who have faith in Christ will be baptized and Baptism as Peter states is a pledge of a good conscience. The Water itself has no magical or regenerating power but Baptism into the Death, Burial and Resurrection is the Response of one who has faith in Christ and is our Profession we are a Christian.
It is correct that, "the Bible says that we will be judged according to our works on Judgement Day (Rev. 20:12). It is by this we are judged, and by this we are found either worthy or not worthy of Heaven." and "whosoever endureth to the end shall be saved. "(Mt. 24:12). We are saved by faith in Christ but faith will work and those who belong to Christ will endure. It is not our works but our faith which saves us and those who have faith will follow Christ and persevere (John 10:14-16, 27-28). Those who fall away are mere professers but not possesors of Eternal life. The lost will be cast into the Lake of Fire because their works testify of the absence of a new birth.
The OSAS doctrine generaly teaches almost a antinominian freedom that anybody who says a sinners prayer is saved and endurance is irrelevant but the Arminian doctrine of Conditional salvation mingles the Law in with the Gospel in teaching a form of work salvation. The truth is in the middle - All those who are born again will endure to the end and those who fail to endure show their salvation to be a fraud .(Heb.6, 10)
I saw a quote of Just A Christian that I will post, "Baptism is not a "good work", meaning that in baptism I am trying to earn my salvation. Baptism is the response of faith. Faith ALWAYS obeys--the "obedience OF FAITH" (Rom 16:26). " While I don't agree with most of JAC post and interpret it differantly than him Baptism is the response of Faith. Generaly speaking , those who have faith in Christ will be baptized and Baptism as Peter states is a pledge of a good conscience. The Water itself has no magical or regenerating power but Baptism into the Death, Burial and Resurrection is the Response of one who has faith in Christ and is our Profession we are a Christian.
It is correct that, "the Bible says that we will be judged according to our works on Judgement Day (Rev. 20:12). It is by this we are judged, and by this we are found either worthy or not worthy of Heaven." and "whosoever endureth to the end shall be saved. "(Mt. 24:12). We are saved by faith in Christ but faith will work and those who belong to Christ will endure. It is not our works but our faith which saves us and those who have faith will follow Christ and persevere (John 10:14-16, 27-28). Those who fall away are mere professers but not possesors of Eternal life. The lost will be cast into the Lake of Fire because their works testify of the absence of a new birth.
The OSAS doctrine generaly teaches almost a antinominian freedom that anybody who says a sinners prayer is saved and endurance is irrelevant but the Arminian doctrine of Conditional salvation mingles the Law in with the Gospel in teaching a form of work salvation. The truth is in the middle - All those who are born again will endure to the end and those who fail to endure show their salvation to be a fraud .(Heb.6, 10)
JustAChristian
New member
Sorry, wrong thread...
Kevin
New member
Pathetic!
Pathetic!
Freak,
John 15:10
10) If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
Was Jesus talking to Himself, or man? MAN. Therefore MAN is to keep the commandments, not Christ! Do you think Christ wasn't serious or something? He expects OUR obedience.
And if Jesus was to keep the commandments, why does that verse say "IF you keep ..."? IF? If Jesus was to keep His own commandments, it would hanppen, there wouldn't be any "IF" about it!
John 14:15
15) If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Is Jesus speaking to Himself? NO. Therefore He is not going to keep His commandments for us. He's telling somebody else to keep His commandments - MAN!
1 John 2:3-6
3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Who is supposed to keep His commandments? Man or Christ? Who is "we" referring to in that verse, Freak?
It is your reasoning that is absurd. Christ within us will cerainly do all He can to exhort us keep His commandments, but He Himself does NOT keep them.
Tell me something, Freak. If it is literally Jesus who keep His commandments for us, then why are there scriptures which speak about people falling away? Why? Did Jesus get tired of doing their commandments or somehting? If Jesus kept His own commandments for us - we would be perfect, because Jesus would be perfect in keeping His commandments.
Pathetic!
Freak,
John 15:10
10) If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
Was Jesus talking to Himself, or man? MAN. Therefore MAN is to keep the commandments, not Christ! Do you think Christ wasn't serious or something? He expects OUR obedience.
And if Jesus was to keep the commandments, why does that verse say "IF you keep ..."? IF? If Jesus was to keep His own commandments, it would hanppen, there wouldn't be any "IF" about it!
John 14:15
15) If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Is Jesus speaking to Himself? NO. Therefore He is not going to keep His commandments for us. He's telling somebody else to keep His commandments - MAN!
1 John 2:3-6
3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Who is supposed to keep His commandments? Man or Christ? Who is "we" referring to in that verse, Freak?
It is your reasoning that is absurd. Christ within us will cerainly do all He can to exhort us keep His commandments, but He Himself does NOT keep them.
Tell me something, Freak. If it is literally Jesus who keep His commandments for us, then why are there scriptures which speak about people falling away? Why? Did Jesus get tired of doing their commandments or somehting? If Jesus kept His own commandments for us - we would be perfect, because Jesus would be perfect in keeping His commandments.
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Kevin
New member
H'mong,
This is a common misunderstanding. Neither I, nor anybody else that I've seen on this thread, claims that the water has any magical properties or that it is what actually cleanses our sins. The blood of Christ is what cleanses sins, not water. Water is simply the chosen element that is to be used in baptism, therefore that example is obeyed.
Another common misconception. Who has stated that works saves? We are simply saying that the kind of faith that saves is the kind that is alive with works of obedience. Faith by itself is a dead faith, and won't save anybody.
Nodody posesses eternal life until they are Judged worthy of it by Christ.
That's not necessarily true. People can be truly born again and yet fall away (Heb. 6: 4-6).
This is a common misunderstanding. Neither I, nor anybody else that I've seen on this thread, claims that the water has any magical properties or that it is what actually cleanses our sins. The blood of Christ is what cleanses sins, not water. Water is simply the chosen element that is to be used in baptism, therefore that example is obeyed.
Another common misconception. Who has stated that works saves? We are simply saying that the kind of faith that saves is the kind that is alive with works of obedience. Faith by itself is a dead faith, and won't save anybody.
Nodody posesses eternal life until they are Judged worthy of it by Christ.
That's not necessarily true. People can be truly born again and yet fall away (Heb. 6: 4-6).
Seek and you shall find...
Seek and you shall find...
Craig –
I have considered how to answer your last post. Your responses are, of course, miserably incorrect and primarily based on assumptions that have no foundation in the truth of God’s word. I am guessing you think this somehow answers the questions that I had proposed to you, but I assure you that it does not come close.
You and I have been here before. We get down to the “essential” questions, and you respond to my post, but you offer no answers. I trust you will find the courage to find the answers, and thereby find the truth that, so far, has escaped you!
Seek and you shall find...
Craig –
I have considered how to answer your last post. Your responses are, of course, miserably incorrect and primarily based on assumptions that have no foundation in the truth of God’s word. I am guessing you think this somehow answers the questions that I had proposed to you, but I assure you that it does not come close.
You and I have been here before. We get down to the “essential” questions, and you respond to my post, but you offer no answers. I trust you will find the courage to find the answers, and thereby find the truth that, so far, has escaped you!
c.moore
New member
quote: c.moore
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So as long as Jesus is in us we have no CONDEMNATION, or NO HELL.
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Quote Kevin
As long as we dont' turn our backs on Christ, which we can do by not keeping His commandments, then yes, we are in good shape.
Quote c.moore
No! I believe more what the bible says:M'r:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
So when somebody say and don`t believe the Jesus is Lord , and don`t have Jesus as thier personal savior, and stop trusting in Him ,then this person is damned for hell, and he is in bad shape.
the judgement day is about be judged if you believe or not in Jesus , and if Jesus is in you or he is not in you as your personal savior .
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Quote Kevin
Wrong. It's more than being judged as to whether or not we believe in Jesus. That may be your version of Judgement Day, but the Bible says that we will be judged according to our works on Judgement Day (Rev. 20:12). It is by this we are judged, and by this we are found either worthy or not worthy of Heaven. See below for proof of this:
Quote c.moore
When you use the word worthy,it look like you are trying to tell me that we must qualify for heaven, and work our way to heaven like the Mormon work thier way to become god or come to the third heaven through works, and commandments.
Re:20:12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Re:20:13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Re:20:14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Re:20:15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
In verse 12 there is no mention of judgement of hell for lack of works.
in verse 15 I only see those who will be in the book of life meaning those who believe and trust jesus, and they are sons, and daughter,in the book of life which is Jesus sheeps, and if anybody wasn`t in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Do you thing the books mention here was like a report card, like we get from school to graduate???
Or was these book there to see who believed, and who believed not,and who was a child of God and who was not a Child of God not trusting in Jesus?????
Quote Kevin
If believing on it's own was enough, then the people in Matt. 25:41-46 should have been saved, for they address Him as Lord. Tell me they didn't believe in Him. They did, but they weren't saved, because faith only isn't enough! They were found lacking, because they didn't do good works towards man (which you've agreed to). This is what happened to them when they were judged (Judgement Day).
Quote c.moore
I did agree because ,i was agreeing the bible did say that but what is the interpretation??
I know the bible says jesus is the door and I agree if somebody ask me they are right when they say Jesus is a door or a wooden door, or metal door like on your house ,But I knoe Jesus is a person not a material door like the bible says,get my point.
the same is with matt 25, let try to put this chapter in the right context by checking this out M't:25:34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Does a person have to work for something he or she inherit???
How can something be prepared to give to somebody before even doing any work??
it look like this is like a will that you just have to except unless you reject the will and remain poor and depressed.
If you can understand this verse 34 you will get the rest of the chapter with understanding.
Quote Kevin
Or what about the people spoken of in Matt. 7:21? They believed in Jesus, yet they were denied heaven because they did not DO the will of the Father. Here we have yet another passage that shows the necessity of obedience. How can one "DO" the will of the Father without works of obedience?
Quotec.moore
M't:7:22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?and in thy name done many wonderful works?
M't:7:23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
quote: c.moore
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Don´t you think Jesus while He is in you try to direct you to do the commandments and obey,because we as His sheep should hear his voice sence he is IN us??
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Quote Kevin
Yes, I agree with you. However, it is still ultimately up to me to do the commandments, not Christ. Christ will not do His own commandments for me.
Quote c.moore
But we should be guided by the spirit to do His commands.
let me ask this last question,if we are led by the Spirit of God and we do what the Spirit says is this doing God`s will and obeying His commandment????
Let God bless you.
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So as long as Jesus is in us we have no CONDEMNATION, or NO HELL.
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Quote Kevin
As long as we dont' turn our backs on Christ, which we can do by not keeping His commandments, then yes, we are in good shape.
Quote c.moore
No! I believe more what the bible says:M'r:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
So when somebody say and don`t believe the Jesus is Lord , and don`t have Jesus as thier personal savior, and stop trusting in Him ,then this person is damned for hell, and he is in bad shape.
the judgement day is about be judged if you believe or not in Jesus , and if Jesus is in you or he is not in you as your personal savior .
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Quote Kevin
Wrong. It's more than being judged as to whether or not we believe in Jesus. That may be your version of Judgement Day, but the Bible says that we will be judged according to our works on Judgement Day (Rev. 20:12). It is by this we are judged, and by this we are found either worthy or not worthy of Heaven. See below for proof of this:
Quote c.moore
When you use the word worthy,it look like you are trying to tell me that we must qualify for heaven, and work our way to heaven like the Mormon work thier way to become god or come to the third heaven through works, and commandments.
Re:20:12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Re:20:13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Re:20:14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Re:20:15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
In verse 12 there is no mention of judgement of hell for lack of works.
in verse 15 I only see those who will be in the book of life meaning those who believe and trust jesus, and they are sons, and daughter,in the book of life which is Jesus sheeps, and if anybody wasn`t in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Do you thing the books mention here was like a report card, like we get from school to graduate???
Or was these book there to see who believed, and who believed not,and who was a child of God and who was not a Child of God not trusting in Jesus?????
Quote Kevin
If believing on it's own was enough, then the people in Matt. 25:41-46 should have been saved, for they address Him as Lord. Tell me they didn't believe in Him. They did, but they weren't saved, because faith only isn't enough! They were found lacking, because they didn't do good works towards man (which you've agreed to). This is what happened to them when they were judged (Judgement Day).
Quote c.moore
I did agree because ,i was agreeing the bible did say that but what is the interpretation??
I know the bible says jesus is the door and I agree if somebody ask me they are right when they say Jesus is a door or a wooden door, or metal door like on your house ,But I knoe Jesus is a person not a material door like the bible says,get my point.
the same is with matt 25, let try to put this chapter in the right context by checking this out M't:25:34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Does a person have to work for something he or she inherit???
How can something be prepared to give to somebody before even doing any work??
it look like this is like a will that you just have to except unless you reject the will and remain poor and depressed.
If you can understand this verse 34 you will get the rest of the chapter with understanding.
Quote Kevin
Or what about the people spoken of in Matt. 7:21? They believed in Jesus, yet they were denied heaven because they did not DO the will of the Father. Here we have yet another passage that shows the necessity of obedience. How can one "DO" the will of the Father without works of obedience?
Quotec.moore
M't:7:22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?and in thy name done many wonderful works?
M't:7:23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
quote: c.moore
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Don´t you think Jesus while He is in you try to direct you to do the commandments and obey,because we as His sheep should hear his voice sence he is IN us??
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Quote Kevin
Yes, I agree with you. However, it is still ultimately up to me to do the commandments, not Christ. Christ will not do His own commandments for me.
Quote c.moore
But we should be guided by the spirit to do His commands.
let me ask this last question,if we are led by the Spirit of God and we do what the Spirit says is this doing God`s will and obeying His commandment????
Let God bless you.
Kevin
New member
c.moore,
You believe what Mark 16:16 says!? LOL! What a joke. If you believed what Mark 16:16 says then you would not dispute what Jesus said about salvation: He who believes AND is baptized will be saved. Would you tell Him "No Lord, you only have to believe!"? I doubt it..
I believe last part of that verse also (the difference is, I believe the first part also). Of course he who doesn't believe is damned. How does this show that it's not necessary to keep His commandments? For we know what kind of belief is being spoken of here, the kind that includes obedience to His commandments! Since you claim to believe what the Bible says, you should know from 1John 2:4 that he who claims to know Jesus (thus believing in Him), and does not do His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in them! Try dealing with this passage so we can stop these ridiculous circular arguements! Simply believing in Him and not doing His commandments will NOT get you to heaven!
This is sad that I must explain this. Do you agree that there will be people who make it to heaven and also people who will go to hell? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't think that EVERYBODY will go to heaven. Now, the people who go to Hell, why didn't they go to Heaven? Because they weren't found WORTHY of Heaven (whatever the reason may be)!
The people mentioned here were either in the book of Life (going to heaven) or they weren't (going to Hell). The Bible clearly says how this judgement of who goes where came about: by their works. Matt 25:41-46 is a perfect example of this. They went to Hell for their lack of works.
Huh? What I see are people being judged by their works, and based upon that Judgement, they were sent to heaven or hell.
Nice try. You did agree to my interpretation, that the people spoken of in Matt. 25: 41-46 were sent to Hell because of their lack of good works. That's my interpretation, and you agreed to it, for I asked you that very question. Here, maybe this will jar your memory:
"Quote kevin
You couldn't even answer the simple yes or no question I posed to you. Were the people in Matt. 25:41-46 thrown into Hell because of their lack of works: YES OR NO?
Sorry if I miss you questions and if I do just remind me , because i would what my questions answered as well.
So I will according to your verse you ask in Matt 25 which was recordedin the time 4 bc-ad 33 and this was something said by Jesus so it`s before the death and before the Holy Spirit came and there was not the grace and gift there at that time to my understanding I must say the truth YES."
This can be found on page 61 of this thread. You agreed that they were sent to Hell by because of their lack of works. Then you tried to soften the blow to your argument by saying that is happend "before the death and before the Holy Spirit came and there was not the grace and gift...". This of course is totally wrong. This event has not happened yet, unless you want to defend the assertion that the things spoken of in verses 31-32 have already happened!
We won't inherit anything until we are judged worthy of it. Yes WORTHY.
I understand this verse perfectly. These people were already judged, or how else did Jesus make the determination that they were sheep instead of goats? How?
Way to not address the part that speaks of who will inherit the kingdom of God: Those who DO the will of the Father.
Why did you emphasize the part that says "and in thy name done many wonderful works?"? Do you think that that was the reason they were told to depart? LOL! So, somebody will be told to depart because they did good works in His name?! I don't think so. They were told to depart because they practiced iniquity (wickedness). They didn't do the will of the Father!. Doing good works in His name is not practicing iniquity. They said that to try and make up for whatever they were doing wrong.
Yes it is. Agreed. Notice what you said: "... led by the Spirit of God and WE do what the Spirit says...". You just proved my point that "WE" are the ones who do what the Spirit says, NOT JESUS. Thank you.
You believe what Mark 16:16 says!? LOL! What a joke. If you believed what Mark 16:16 says then you would not dispute what Jesus said about salvation: He who believes AND is baptized will be saved. Would you tell Him "No Lord, you only have to believe!"? I doubt it.
.I believe last part of that verse also (the difference is, I believe the first part also). Of course he who doesn't believe is damned. How does this show that it's not necessary to keep His commandments? For we know what kind of belief is being spoken of here, the kind that includes obedience to His commandments! Since you claim to believe what the Bible says, you should know from 1John 2:4 that he who claims to know Jesus (thus believing in Him), and does not do His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in them! Try dealing with this passage so we can stop these ridiculous circular arguements! Simply believing in Him and not doing His commandments will NOT get you to heaven!
This is sad that I must explain this. Do you agree that there will be people who make it to heaven and also people who will go to hell? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't think that EVERYBODY will go to heaven. Now, the people who go to Hell, why didn't they go to Heaven? Because they weren't found WORTHY of Heaven (whatever the reason may be)!
The people mentioned here were either in the book of Life (going to heaven) or they weren't (going to Hell). The Bible clearly says how this judgement of who goes where came about: by their works. Matt 25:41-46 is a perfect example of this. They went to Hell for their lack of works.
Huh? What I see are people being judged by their works, and based upon that Judgement, they were sent to heaven or hell.
Nice try. You did agree to my interpretation, that the people spoken of in Matt. 25: 41-46 were sent to Hell because of their lack of good works. That's my interpretation, and you agreed to it, for I asked you that very question. Here, maybe this will jar your memory:
"Quote kevin
You couldn't even answer the simple yes or no question I posed to you. Were the people in Matt. 25:41-46 thrown into Hell because of their lack of works: YES OR NO?
Sorry if I miss you questions and if I do just remind me , because i would what my questions answered as well.
So I will according to your verse you ask in Matt 25 which was recordedin the time 4 bc-ad 33 and this was something said by Jesus so it`s before the death and before the Holy Spirit came and there was not the grace and gift there at that time to my understanding I must say the truth YES."
This can be found on page 61 of this thread. You agreed that they were sent to Hell by because of their lack of works. Then you tried to soften the blow to your argument by saying that is happend "before the death and before the Holy Spirit came and there was not the grace and gift...". This of course is totally wrong. This event has not happened yet, unless you want to defend the assertion that the things spoken of in verses 31-32 have already happened!
We won't inherit anything until we are judged worthy of it. Yes WORTHY.
I understand this verse perfectly. These people were already judged, or how else did Jesus make the determination that they were sheep instead of goats? How?
Way to not address the part that speaks of who will inherit the kingdom of God: Those who DO the will of the Father.
Why did you emphasize the part that says "and in thy name done many wonderful works?"? Do you think that that was the reason they were told to depart? LOL! So, somebody will be told to depart because they did good works in His name?! I don't think so. They were told to depart because they practiced iniquity (wickedness). They didn't do the will of the Father!. Doing good works in His name is not practicing iniquity. They said that to try and make up for whatever they were doing wrong.
Yes it is. Agreed. Notice what you said: "... led by the Spirit of God and WE do what the Spirit says...". You just proved my point that "WE" are the ones who do what the Spirit says, NOT JESUS. Thank you.
elected4ever
New member
Kevin, the more you wright, the worse you get. Your ignorance of the new birth is proff that you do not know Christ. You have no credibility to correct Freak.
Freak, your comment was right on the money.
Freak, your comment was right on the money.
Freak
New member
Kevin, do you believe that all have sinned and have come short of the glory of God, in light of Romans 3?
And...
Apollos, the same questions goes to you as well.
:down: You guys simply do not see that Jesus Christ as the only one able to keep and fulfill the law for He is God. You guys like to elevate man as being able to do all sorts of good things apart from Christ!
Now that is pathetic and absurd.
And...
Apollos, the same questions goes to you as well.
:down: You guys simply do not see that Jesus Christ as the only one able to keep and fulfill the law for He is God. You guys like to elevate man as being able to do all sorts of good things apart from Christ!
Now that is pathetic and absurd.