His credentials say otherwise.
https://wallbuilders.com/bios/
Oh wait, Barton isn't a card carrying member of the ACLU, I see your point.
Frederick Douglass was convinced. Sorry, but it's not important that today's liberals aren't.
THE Founding Fathers Thread of All Founding Fathers Threads
- Thread starter aCultureWarrior
- Start date
His credentials say otherwise.
https://wallbuilders.com/bios/
Oh wait, Barton isn't a card carrying member of the ACLU, I see your point.
Frederick Douglass was convinced. Sorry, but it's not important that today's liberals aren't.
You might want to check that again. He's a pretend historian. He claims an expertise no one else recognizes.
Check out these choice lines from his bio:
| A national news organization has described him as “America’s historian,” and Time Magazine called him “a hero to millions – including some powerful politicians. In fact, Time Magazine named him as one of America’s 25 most influential evangelicals. |
:rotfl:
ClimateSanity
New member
And this discredits him as an historian how?
Most people who are being honest and don't have any specialized training or credentials would call themselves "amateurs". I could call myself an amateur historian. I wouldn't call myself a historian without the qualifier, but as far as I can tell, I have at least as much cause to do so as he does, on an objective basis. And given his history of lying, and his obvious attempt to puff up his authoritativeness, I think his credibility is virtually nil.
What credible author puts in their CV a reference to "a national news organization" without saying who or where? That could be anything. If you put it on a blog, you could make that claim. He could make the statement on his own website, and then cite it in that claim. And Time calling him "a hero to millions– including some powerful politicians" doesn't exactly sound like an endorsement, to me.
Put simply, he's not a historian. He's a blogger with a penchant for fabrication.
ClimateSanity
New member
What is your definition of a historian?
Moses
What is your definition of finding a dictionary?
More attacks on David Barton:
"Most people" don't have tens of thousands of articles (around 100,000) from the Founding era in their library. "Most people" haven't written best selling books, nor are they invited to speak to around 400 groups a year on this particular subject. "Most people" haven't received prestigious awards from numerous groups.
Now that it's been established that Founding Father historian David Barton isn't like "most people", how about I use an analogy that secular humanists can relate to?
Let's say that a certain nameless Libertarian is really into pornography. He has every edition of Playboy, Hustler and Playgirl (who am I to judge?) and literally 10's of thousands of pieces of SMUT. He's read and owns every book written by SMUT peddlers like Hugh Hefner and travels around the country to hundreds of porn shops and conventions every year signing SMUT magazines because he is so well educated on the history of pornography.
Would that degenerate not be considered an 'historian' of filth?
Either refute the information that Barton has presented or have a nice secular humanist day.
"Most people" don't have tens of thousands of articles (around 100,000) from the Founding era in their library. "Most people" haven't written best selling books, nor are they invited to speak to around 400 groups a year on this particular subject. "Most people" haven't received prestigious awards from numerous groups.
Now that it's been established that Founding Father historian David Barton isn't like "most people", how about I use an analogy that secular humanists can relate to?
Let's say that a certain nameless Libertarian is really into pornography. He has every edition of Playboy, Hustler and Playgirl (who am I to judge?) and literally 10's of thousands of pieces of SMUT. He's read and owns every book written by SMUT peddlers like Hugh Hefner and travels around the country to hundreds of porn shops and conventions every year signing SMUT magazines because he is so well educated on the history of pornography.
Would that degenerate not be considered an 'historian' of filth?
Either refute the information that Barton has presented or have a nice secular humanist day.
Now that it's been established that the Founding Fathers created a government and nation that honored God and Jesus Christ, let's take a look at some of the organizations and people who are saying otherwise:
The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU)
(From the website "StoptheACLU")
The Brief History of the ACLUs Communist founding and Agenda.
The ACLU was founded on January 19, 1920. It grew out of a previous group, The National Civil Liberties Bureau which had grown out of the American Union Against Militarism, and a party that was held in New York City and attended by just about every radical from New York, such as Socialist Party notable Norman Thomas, future Communist Party chairman Elizabeth Gurley Flynn, and Soviet agent Agnes Smedley. In 1920, Rev. Harry Ward, the RedDean of the Union Theological Seminary was Chairman, Baldwin was director, and Communist publisher Louis Budenz, who would later go on to testify against Communism, director of publicity. The founders numbered over 60 but most of the work was done by the following:
1. Roger Baldwin, founder and guiding light of the ACLU for over 30 years, is now a member of the National Committee of the ACLU. Mr Roger Baldwin has a record of over 100 communist-front affiliations and citations (documented in detail, CONGRESSIONAL RECORD May 26, 1952). In an article written for Soviet Russia Today (September 1934), Roger Baldwin said: “When the power of the working class is once achieved, as it has been only in the Soviet Union, I am for maintaining it by any means whatsoever.” “The class struggle is the central conflict of the world, all others are coincidental.”
Entry of Roger Baldwin in the Harvard reunion book on the occasion of the 30th anniversary reunion of his class of 1905 (1935), “I seek social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class, and sole control of those who produced the wealth: communism is the goal.”
2. Dr. Harry Ward, first chairman of the ACLU. Dr. Harry Ward has a record of over 200 Communist front affiliations and citations listed by the House Committee on UnAmerican Activities (HCUA). Dr. Harry Ward was chairman of one of the largest Communist fronts to flourish in this country, “The American League for Peace and Democracy,” which was placed on the Attorney General of the United States list of subversive organizations on June 1, 1948. Dr. Ward is the author of “Soviet Democracy” and “Soviet Spirit,” two pro-Communist books which clearly show Dr. Ward’s love for the Soviet system of government. The California Senate Fact Finding Committee on Un-American Activities, in their 1948 report, page 246, said: “The Communist affiliation of Dr. Harry F. Ward is indicative of the Communist sympaties of the members and sponsors of the “Friends of the Soviet Union.”
3. Abraham L. Wirin, chief counsel for the Southern California Chapter of the ACLU, sometimes referred to as “Mr. ACLU.”
In 1934 A. L. Wirin formed a law partnership with Leo Gllagher and Grover Johnson (reference: Daily Peoples World, Mar. 5, 1934, official publication of the Communist Party on the west coast). Mr Leo Gallagher ran for State office on the Communist Party ticket in 1936 and Grover Johnson, when asked by a governmental investigating agency if he had ever been a member of the Communist Party, refused to answer the question on the grounds that he might incriminate himself.
In 1954, A. L. Wirin was a candidate for the executive board of National Lawyers Guild (reference: Los Angeles Daily Journal, Jan 13, 1954). The National Lawyers Guild has been cited as a Communist Front organization by the House Committee on Un-American Activities (HCUA) September 21, 1950. (Four years before, Mr. Wirin was a candidate for the executive board.)
4. Dr. Albert Eason Monroe, executive director of the Southern California Chapter of the ACLU:
In 1952, Dr. Albert Eason Monroe, U.S. Navy serial No. 316900, was discharged from the U.S. Naval Reserve under conditions other than honorable.
In 1950, Dr. Monroe was fired from his position as head of the English department of San Francisco college for refusing to sign a loyalty oath. (The purpose of loyalty oaths is to protect the unsuspecting individual from lending his name to a Communist cause and from becoming a Communist dupe. The requirements of loyalty oaths have multiplied the obstacles to the Communists in recruiting memberships for their front organizations and maintaining discipline over fellow travelers in Government service. Few people will swear to an oath knowing it to be false and knowing that they might be liable to indictment and imprisonment for perjury. This requirement places a most difficult hurdle in front of the Communists attempting to ensnare an unsuspecting recruit into their conspiracy.)
5. Rev. A. A. Heist, executive director of the Southern California Chapter of the ACLU in 1952, and Dr. Monroe’s predecessor. Rev. A. A. Heist was a signer of the statement to the President of the United States, defending the Communist Party (reference: Daily Worker Mar 5, 1941). In 1952, the Reverend Heist resigned his position in the ACLU to become director of a new organization which he founded, called the Citizens’ Committee to Preserve American Freedoms (CCPAF). This organization is run by its executive secretary, Mr. Frank Wilkinson, an identified Communist. At a meeting of the district council of the southern California district of the Communist Party, United States of America, Dorothy Healy, well-known Communist and chairman of the district council, said, “The party preferred public protest meetings against the HCUA to be held by the Citizens Committee To Preserve American Freedoms rather than under party auspices because Communists could attend without danger of being exposed as party members...”In 1948, the Reverend Heist protested the withdrawal of the use of their hall by Occidental College to an identified Communist poet, Langston Hughes, who was to speak on a poem of his entitled, “Goodbye, Christ,” which called for “Christ, Jesus, Lord God Jehovah” to “beat it” and “make way for a new guy named Marx, Communist Lenin, Peasant Stalin, and worker me.” (Reference: Hollywood Citizen News, February 26, 1948.) This would not be a strange protest from an atheistic Communist, but when it comes from a Methodist minister?
6. Carey McWilliams, a member of the national committee of the ACLU in 1948, who now figures prominently in the affairs of the ACLU, has been identified in sworn testimony, according to Government documents, as a member of the Communist Party. Carey McWilliams has a record of over 50 Communist-front affiliations and citations. He is the editor of “Rights,” the official publication of the Emergency Civil Liberties Committee which has been cited as a Communist front by the HCUA (November 8, 1957).
7. Prof. William A. Kilpatrick, prominent member of the ACLU on the east coast, was for many years head of Teacherc College, Columbia University. In his book, “The Teacher and Society,” published in 1939, Professor Kilpatrick said that “the revolution by force and violence was probably necessary in Russia, but it would not be necessary in America. Here, the same goals could be acheived by effectuating change within the framework of the Constitution.”
8. William Z. Foster, former head of the Communist Party, United States of America, was a former member of the National Committee of the ACLU.
9. Elizabeth Gurley Flynn, former member of the National Committee of the ACLU until 1940, is a member of the Central Committee of the Communist Party, United States of America.
In the report on “Communist Propaganda in America” (published 1935, A.F.L.) as submitted to the State Department, by William Green, the late president of the American Federation of Labor, Mr. Green states that: “During all the years since the establishment of the Soviet regime in Russia, propaganda in the United States has been conducted, not only through agencies directly set up by the Communist high command, but through agencies and organizations in which non-Communists of good standing and repute have been induced to participate...
Coming up: Some of the cases (and rulings) the ACLU has been involved in.
The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU)
(From the website "StoptheACLU")
The Brief History of the ACLUs Communist founding and Agenda.
The ACLU was founded on January 19, 1920. It grew out of a previous group, The National Civil Liberties Bureau which had grown out of the American Union Against Militarism, and a party that was held in New York City and attended by just about every radical from New York, such as Socialist Party notable Norman Thomas, future Communist Party chairman Elizabeth Gurley Flynn, and Soviet agent Agnes Smedley. In 1920, Rev. Harry Ward, the RedDean of the Union Theological Seminary was Chairman, Baldwin was director, and Communist publisher Louis Budenz, who would later go on to testify against Communism, director of publicity. The founders numbered over 60 but most of the work was done by the following:
1. Roger Baldwin, founder and guiding light of the ACLU for over 30 years, is now a member of the National Committee of the ACLU. Mr Roger Baldwin has a record of over 100 communist-front affiliations and citations (documented in detail, CONGRESSIONAL RECORD May 26, 1952). In an article written for Soviet Russia Today (September 1934), Roger Baldwin said: “When the power of the working class is once achieved, as it has been only in the Soviet Union, I am for maintaining it by any means whatsoever.” “The class struggle is the central conflict of the world, all others are coincidental.”
Entry of Roger Baldwin in the Harvard reunion book on the occasion of the 30th anniversary reunion of his class of 1905 (1935), “I seek social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class, and sole control of those who produced the wealth: communism is the goal.”
2. Dr. Harry Ward, first chairman of the ACLU. Dr. Harry Ward has a record of over 200 Communist front affiliations and citations listed by the House Committee on UnAmerican Activities (HCUA). Dr. Harry Ward was chairman of one of the largest Communist fronts to flourish in this country, “The American League for Peace and Democracy,” which was placed on the Attorney General of the United States list of subversive organizations on June 1, 1948. Dr. Ward is the author of “Soviet Democracy” and “Soviet Spirit,” two pro-Communist books which clearly show Dr. Ward’s love for the Soviet system of government. The California Senate Fact Finding Committee on Un-American Activities, in their 1948 report, page 246, said: “The Communist affiliation of Dr. Harry F. Ward is indicative of the Communist sympaties of the members and sponsors of the “Friends of the Soviet Union.”
3. Abraham L. Wirin, chief counsel for the Southern California Chapter of the ACLU, sometimes referred to as “Mr. ACLU.”
In 1934 A. L. Wirin formed a law partnership with Leo Gllagher and Grover Johnson (reference: Daily Peoples World, Mar. 5, 1934, official publication of the Communist Party on the west coast). Mr Leo Gallagher ran for State office on the Communist Party ticket in 1936 and Grover Johnson, when asked by a governmental investigating agency if he had ever been a member of the Communist Party, refused to answer the question on the grounds that he might incriminate himself.
In 1954, A. L. Wirin was a candidate for the executive board of National Lawyers Guild (reference: Los Angeles Daily Journal, Jan 13, 1954). The National Lawyers Guild has been cited as a Communist Front organization by the House Committee on Un-American Activities (HCUA) September 21, 1950. (Four years before, Mr. Wirin was a candidate for the executive board.)
4. Dr. Albert Eason Monroe, executive director of the Southern California Chapter of the ACLU:
In 1952, Dr. Albert Eason Monroe, U.S. Navy serial No. 316900, was discharged from the U.S. Naval Reserve under conditions other than honorable.
In 1950, Dr. Monroe was fired from his position as head of the English department of San Francisco college for refusing to sign a loyalty oath. (The purpose of loyalty oaths is to protect the unsuspecting individual from lending his name to a Communist cause and from becoming a Communist dupe. The requirements of loyalty oaths have multiplied the obstacles to the Communists in recruiting memberships for their front organizations and maintaining discipline over fellow travelers in Government service. Few people will swear to an oath knowing it to be false and knowing that they might be liable to indictment and imprisonment for perjury. This requirement places a most difficult hurdle in front of the Communists attempting to ensnare an unsuspecting recruit into their conspiracy.)
5. Rev. A. A. Heist, executive director of the Southern California Chapter of the ACLU in 1952, and Dr. Monroe’s predecessor. Rev. A. A. Heist was a signer of the statement to the President of the United States, defending the Communist Party (reference: Daily Worker Mar 5, 1941). In 1952, the Reverend Heist resigned his position in the ACLU to become director of a new organization which he founded, called the Citizens’ Committee to Preserve American Freedoms (CCPAF). This organization is run by its executive secretary, Mr. Frank Wilkinson, an identified Communist. At a meeting of the district council of the southern California district of the Communist Party, United States of America, Dorothy Healy, well-known Communist and chairman of the district council, said, “The party preferred public protest meetings against the HCUA to be held by the Citizens Committee To Preserve American Freedoms rather than under party auspices because Communists could attend without danger of being exposed as party members...”In 1948, the Reverend Heist protested the withdrawal of the use of their hall by Occidental College to an identified Communist poet, Langston Hughes, who was to speak on a poem of his entitled, “Goodbye, Christ,” which called for “Christ, Jesus, Lord God Jehovah” to “beat it” and “make way for a new guy named Marx, Communist Lenin, Peasant Stalin, and worker me.” (Reference: Hollywood Citizen News, February 26, 1948.) This would not be a strange protest from an atheistic Communist, but when it comes from a Methodist minister?
6. Carey McWilliams, a member of the national committee of the ACLU in 1948, who now figures prominently in the affairs of the ACLU, has been identified in sworn testimony, according to Government documents, as a member of the Communist Party. Carey McWilliams has a record of over 50 Communist-front affiliations and citations. He is the editor of “Rights,” the official publication of the Emergency Civil Liberties Committee which has been cited as a Communist front by the HCUA (November 8, 1957).
7. Prof. William A. Kilpatrick, prominent member of the ACLU on the east coast, was for many years head of Teacherc College, Columbia University. In his book, “The Teacher and Society,” published in 1939, Professor Kilpatrick said that “the revolution by force and violence was probably necessary in Russia, but it would not be necessary in America. Here, the same goals could be acheived by effectuating change within the framework of the Constitution.”
8. William Z. Foster, former head of the Communist Party, United States of America, was a former member of the National Committee of the ACLU.
9. Elizabeth Gurley Flynn, former member of the National Committee of the ACLU until 1940, is a member of the Central Committee of the Communist Party, United States of America.
In the report on “Communist Propaganda in America” (published 1935, A.F.L.) as submitted to the State Department, by William Green, the late president of the American Federation of Labor, Mr. Green states that: “During all the years since the establishment of the Soviet regime in Russia, propaganda in the United States has been conducted, not only through agencies directly set up by the Communist high command, but through agencies and organizations in which non-Communists of good standing and repute have been induced to participate...
Coming up: Some of the cases (and rulings) the ACLU has been involved in.
Madison, for example. And yet he advocated a wall of separation between church and state. Like most Christians, he recognized that liberty and a sound church required such separation.
The other gegaws you mentioned were referred to by Madison as "de minimus" violations, not worth fussing over. The Supreme Court has set that as law, for example declaring that "In God We Trust" is essentially meaningless because of the public use. No damage to freedom, but considerable damage to faith.
You've pretty much made my argument for me.
I think you get it now.
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
As I pointed out in my above post, actions speak for themselves.
A tour of historic sites in America, and particularly the Capital city, reveals that America was a nation birthed by men who had a firm reliance upon Almighty God and His Son Jesus Christ.
It's a given that you only want to talk about one Founding Father who Founding Fathers era historian David Barton stated was "complicated". However, there is nothing complicated about Madison's actions when it came to promoting God and Christianity (as shown in a previous post) :
First, Madison was publicly outspoken about his personal Christian beliefs and convictions. For example, he encouraged his friend, William Bradford (who served as Attorney General under President Washington), to make sure of his own spiritual salvation:
[A] watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown
and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven.[1]
Madison even desired that all public officials – including Bradford – would declare
openly and publicly their Christian beliefs and testimony:
I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal
enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way. [2]
Second,
Madison was a member of the committee that authored the 1776 Virginia Bill of Rights and approved of its clause declaring that:
It is the mutual duty*of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.[3]
(emphasis added)
Third,
Madison’s proposed wording for the First Amendment demonstrates that he opposed only the establishment of a federal denomination, not public religious activities. His proposal declared:
The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established. [4]*(emphasis added)
(Madison reemphasized that position throughout the debates. [5])
Fourth,
in 1789, Madison served on the Congressional committee which authorized, approved, and selected paid Congressional chaplains. [6]
Fifth,
in 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided a Bible Society in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible. [7]
Sixth,
throughout his Presidency (1809-1816), Madison endorsed public and official religious expressions by issuing several proclamations for national days of prayer, fasting, and thanksgiving. [8]
https://wallbuilders.com/james-madison-religion-public/
Sigh, I wish our country had more 'secular humanist' Presidents like James Madison.
As I pointed out in my above post, actions speak for themselves.
A tour of historic sites in America, and particularly the Capital city, reveals that America was a nation birthed by men who had a firm reliance upon Almighty God and His Son Jesus Christ.
It's a given that you only want to talk about one Founding Father who Founding Fathers era historian David Barton stated was "complicated". However, there is nothing complicated about Madison's actions when it came to promoting God and Christianity (as shown in a previous post) :
First, Madison was publicly outspoken about his personal Christian beliefs and convictions. For example, he encouraged his friend, William Bradford (who served as Attorney General under President Washington), to make sure of his own spiritual salvation:
[A] watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown
and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven.[1]
Madison even desired that all public officials – including Bradford – would declare
openly and publicly their Christian beliefs and testimony:
I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal
enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way. [2]
Second,
Madison was a member of the committee that authored the 1776 Virginia Bill of Rights and approved of its clause declaring that:
It is the mutual duty*of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.[3]
(emphasis added)
Third,
Madison’s proposed wording for the First Amendment demonstrates that he opposed only the establishment of a federal denomination, not public religious activities. His proposal declared:
The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established. [4]*(emphasis added)
(Madison reemphasized that position throughout the debates. [5])
Fourth,
in 1789, Madison served on the Congressional committee which authorized, approved, and selected paid Congressional chaplains. [6]
Fifth,
in 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided a Bible Society in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible. [7]
Sixth,
throughout his Presidency (1809-1816), Madison endorsed public and official religious expressions by issuing several proclamations for national days of prayer, fasting, and thanksgiving. [8]
https://wallbuilders.com/james-madison-religion-public/
Sigh, I wish our country had more 'secular humanist' Presidents like James Madison.
ClimateSanity
New member
You keep saying that word "separation of church and state". I don't think it means what you think it means.
https://youtu.be/F8y-qy9N01I
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Not "the state"
Congress
jonahdog said:
Not "supports"
Makes a law
| Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof |
It speaks about Congress making a law
No exceptions
Most people don't have a flower in their ear, but that and the things you listed don't make you a historian.
Nor has he. None of the organizations he listed in his bio are historical organization. The DAR is about the closest, but it's mostly a right-wing social club.
On just that basis? No. The fact that he's read every single bit of smut makes him an enthusiast. I'd like to know what he contributes to the historical record, his methodology for study, and ideally what his peers think of his work.
I responded to his argument. You chose to take greater issue with my note that Barton is a fabricator, not a historian, hence the extended discussion on that subject.
What do you mean by "peers" certainly not those PhD elitist historians who really do know what they talk and write about. Barton can ignore his peers because he has none, it is hard to find a lying narcissist who has no knowledge but is really good at self-promotion.
Oh, wait, maybe it is not so hard to find. 1600 PA Avenue, or Mar-A_Largo.
It's five words. And it means, according to Jefferson...
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to the Danbury Baptists
Let's see what James Madison thought it should be...
Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history. (See the cases in which negatives were put by J. M. on two bills passd by Congs and his signature withheld from another. See also attempt in Kentucky for example, where it was proposed to exempt Houses of Worship from taxes.
James Madison Detached Memoranda
So as you see, the founders were thinking about an even stricter wall than we normally accept today. Madison found that given churches a tax excemption was unconstitutional.
You'll find no comfort for your views in the views of the men who wrote the Bill of Rights.
Unable to refute the information that Founding Fathers era historian David Barton has provided thus far in the thread, rexlunae continues to attack the credentials of Barton.
Let's talk about your 'historians'.
I've spoken about Grove City College professor Warren Throckmorton, and recently the ACLU, how about we talk about "Liars for Jesus" author (and beauty pageant contestant) Chris Rodda?
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cZPsubDDX1Y/hqdefault.jpg
http://www.liarsforjesus.com/index.html
How about we talk about "Americans United for the Separation of Church and State"?
http://www.au.org/
We could talk about Mikey Weinstein ("Mikey"? Is he 6 years old? Who calls a grown man "Mikey"?)
and his "Military Religious Freedom Foundation".
https://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/about/michael-l-mikey-weinstein/
Do tell what makes all of the above secular humanist/God haters "historians"?
Let's talk about your 'historians'.
I've spoken about Grove City College professor Warren Throckmorton, and recently the ACLU, how about we talk about "Liars for Jesus" author (and beauty pageant contestant) Chris Rodda?
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cZPsubDDX1Y/hqdefault.jpg
http://www.liarsforjesus.com/index.html
How about we talk about "Americans United for the Separation of Church and State"?
http://www.au.org/
We could talk about Mikey Weinstein ("Mikey"? Is he 6 years old? Who calls a grown man "Mikey"?)
and his "Military Religious Freedom Foundation".
https://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/about/michael-l-mikey-weinstein/
Do tell what makes all of the above secular humanist/God haters "historians"?
Continuing to be obsessed with just one of the many Founding Fathers, the barbarian just can't seem to get James Madison out of his mind:
Madison’s proposed wording for the First Amendment demonstrates that he opposed only the establishment of a federal denomination, not public religious activities. His proposal declared:
The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established. [4]
https://wallbuilders.com/james-madison-religion-public/
Hmmmm, Madison "opposed the establishment of a federal denomination", where have we heard that before? (numerous times throughout this thread).
Madison’s proposed wording for the First Amendment demonstrates that he opposed only the establishment of a federal denomination, not public religious activities. His proposal declared:
The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established. [4]
https://wallbuilders.com/james-madison-religion-public/
Hmmmm, Madison "opposed the establishment of a federal denomination", where have we heard that before? (numerous times throughout this thread).
I love this website because it shows the Biblical roots of our nation's founding documents and laws.
The Bible and Government
Biblical Principles: Basis for America's Laws
PRINCIPLE
LEGAL DOCUMENT
BIBLE
Sovereign authority of God, not sovereignty of the state, or sovereignty of man
Mayflower Compact, Declaration, Constitution, currency, oaths, mention of God in all 50 state constitutions, Pledge of Allegiance
Ex. 18:16, 20:3, Dt. 10:20, 2 Chron. 7:14, Ps. 83:18, 91:2, Isa. 9:6-7, Dan. 4:32, Jn. 19:11, Acts 5:29, Rom. 13:1, Col 1:15-20, 1 Tim. 6:15
Existence of objective moral values, Fixed standards, Absolute truth, Sanctity of life
Declaration ("unalienable" rights—life, etc., "self-evident" truths)
Ex. 20:1-17, Dt. 30:19, Ps. 119:142-152,* Pr. 14:34, Isa. 5:20-21, Jn. 10:10, Rom. 2:15,* Heb. 13:8*
Rule of law rather than authority of man
Declaration, Constitution
Ex. 18:24-27, Dt. 17:20, Isa. 8:19-20, Mat. 5:17-18*
All men are sinners
Constitutional checks and balances
Gen 8:21, Jer. 17:9, Mk. 7:20-23, Rom. 3:23, 1 Jn. 1:8*
All men created equal
Declaration
Gen. 1:26, Acts 10:34, 17:26, Gal. 3:28, 1 Peter 2:17
Judicial, legislative, and executive branches
Constitution
Isa. 33:22 (See Madison)
Religious freedom
First Amendment
1 Timothy2:1-2
Church protected from state control (& taxation), but church to influence the state
First Amendment
Dt. 17:18-20, 1 Kgs. 3:28, Ezra 7:24, Neh. 8:2, 1 Sam. 7:15-10:27, 15:10-31, 2 Sam. 12:1-18, Mat. 14:3-4,* Lk. 3:7-14, 11:52, Acts 4:26-29*
Republican form of government and warnings against kings but in favor of Godly rulers
*Constitution
Ex. 18:21, Dt. 1:13, Jud. 8:22-23, 1 Samuel 8, Pr. 11:14, 24:6 *
Importance of governing self and family as first level of governance
First, Second, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments
Mat. 18:15-18,* Gal. 5:16-26, 1 Cor. 6:1-11, 1 Tim. 3:1-5, Tit. 2:1-8*
Establish justice
Declaration
Ex. 23:1-9, Lev. 19:15, Dt. 1:17, 16:19-20, 24:17-19, 1 Sam. 8:3, 2 Sam. 8:15,* 1 Kings 3:28, 10:9, Mic. 6:8, Rom. 13:4*
Fair trial with witnesses
Sixth Amendment
Ex. 20:16, Dt. 19:15, Pr. 24:28, 25:18, Mat. 18:16*
Private property rights
Fifth Amendment
Ex. 20:15-17
Biblical liberty, Free enterprise
Declaration
Lev. 25:10, Jn. 8:36,* 2 Cor. 3:17, Gal. 5:1, James 1:25, 1 Peter 2:16*
Creation not evolution
Declaration
Gen. 1:1
Biblical capitalism not Darwinian capitalism (service and fair play over strict survival of the fittest)
Anti-trust laws
Ex. 20:17, Mat. 20:26, 25:14-30, 2 Thes. 3:6-15, 1 Pet. 2:16*
Importance of the traditional family
State sodomy laws, few reasons for divorce
Ex. 20:12-14, Mat. 19:1-12, Mk. 10:2-12, Rom. 1:18-2:16, 1 Cor. 7:1-40,*
Religious education encouraged
Northwest Ordinance
Dt. 6:4-7, Pr. 22:6, Mat. 18:6, Eph. 6:4,*
Servanthood not political power
Concept of public servant
Ex. 18:21, Rom. 13:4, Php. 2:7,*
Sabbath day holy
"Blue laws"
Ex. 20:8
Restitution
Restitution laws
Lev. 6:1-5, Num. 5:5-7, Mat. 5:23-26
http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/the-bible-and-government
The Bible and Government
Biblical Principles: Basis for America's Laws
PRINCIPLE
LEGAL DOCUMENT
BIBLE
Sovereign authority of God, not sovereignty of the state, or sovereignty of man
Mayflower Compact, Declaration, Constitution, currency, oaths, mention of God in all 50 state constitutions, Pledge of Allegiance
Ex. 18:16, 20:3, Dt. 10:20, 2 Chron. 7:14, Ps. 83:18, 91:2, Isa. 9:6-7, Dan. 4:32, Jn. 19:11, Acts 5:29, Rom. 13:1, Col 1:15-20, 1 Tim. 6:15
Existence of objective moral values, Fixed standards, Absolute truth, Sanctity of life
Declaration ("unalienable" rights—life, etc., "self-evident" truths)
Ex. 20:1-17, Dt. 30:19, Ps. 119:142-152,* Pr. 14:34, Isa. 5:20-21, Jn. 10:10, Rom. 2:15,* Heb. 13:8*
Rule of law rather than authority of man
Declaration, Constitution
Ex. 18:24-27, Dt. 17:20, Isa. 8:19-20, Mat. 5:17-18*
All men are sinners
Constitutional checks and balances
Gen 8:21, Jer. 17:9, Mk. 7:20-23, Rom. 3:23, 1 Jn. 1:8*
All men created equal
Declaration
Gen. 1:26, Acts 10:34, 17:26, Gal. 3:28, 1 Peter 2:17
Judicial, legislative, and executive branches
Constitution
Isa. 33:22 (See Madison)
Religious freedom
First Amendment
1 Timothy2:1-2
Church protected from state control (& taxation), but church to influence the state
First Amendment
Dt. 17:18-20, 1 Kgs. 3:28, Ezra 7:24, Neh. 8:2, 1 Sam. 7:15-10:27, 15:10-31, 2 Sam. 12:1-18, Mat. 14:3-4,* Lk. 3:7-14, 11:52, Acts 4:26-29*
Republican form of government and warnings against kings but in favor of Godly rulers
*Constitution
Ex. 18:21, Dt. 1:13, Jud. 8:22-23, 1 Samuel 8, Pr. 11:14, 24:6 *
Importance of governing self and family as first level of governance
First, Second, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments
Mat. 18:15-18,* Gal. 5:16-26, 1 Cor. 6:1-11, 1 Tim. 3:1-5, Tit. 2:1-8*
Establish justice
Declaration
Ex. 23:1-9, Lev. 19:15, Dt. 1:17, 16:19-20, 24:17-19, 1 Sam. 8:3, 2 Sam. 8:15,* 1 Kings 3:28, 10:9, Mic. 6:8, Rom. 13:4*
Fair trial with witnesses
Sixth Amendment
Ex. 20:16, Dt. 19:15, Pr. 24:28, 25:18, Mat. 18:16*
Private property rights
Fifth Amendment
Ex. 20:15-17
Biblical liberty, Free enterprise
Declaration
Lev. 25:10, Jn. 8:36,* 2 Cor. 3:17, Gal. 5:1, James 1:25, 1 Peter 2:16*
Creation not evolution
Declaration
Gen. 1:1
Biblical capitalism not Darwinian capitalism (service and fair play over strict survival of the fittest)
Anti-trust laws
Ex. 20:17, Mat. 20:26, 25:14-30, 2 Thes. 3:6-15, 1 Pet. 2:16*
Importance of the traditional family
State sodomy laws, few reasons for divorce
Ex. 20:12-14, Mat. 19:1-12, Mk. 10:2-12, Rom. 1:18-2:16, 1 Cor. 7:1-40,*
Religious education encouraged
Northwest Ordinance
Dt. 6:4-7, Pr. 22:6, Mat. 18:6, Eph. 6:4,*
Servanthood not political power
Concept of public servant
Ex. 18:21, Rom. 13:4, Php. 2:7,*
Sabbath day holy
"Blue laws"
Ex. 20:8
Restitution
Restitution laws
Lev. 6:1-5, Num. 5:5-7, Mat. 5:23-26
http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/the-bible-and-government
While discussing Thomas Jefferson in another thread (the homosexualist who said that he was "inspired" by Thomas Jefferson, evidently didn't know that Jefferson proposed legislation that would punish those convicted of homosexual acts be castrated)
Thomas Jefferson, A Bill for Proportioning Crimes and Punishments
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendVIIIs10.html
I ran across David Barton's lengthy article entitled:
Defending The Jefferson Lies: David Barton Responds to his Conservative Critics
https://wallbuilders.com/wp-content...vidBartonRespondstohisConservativeCritics.pdf
The above is open for discussion if anyone is interested in defending EX conservative Warren Throckmorton or other critics of Barton.
Thomas Jefferson, A Bill for Proportioning Crimes and Punishments
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendVIIIs10.html
I ran across David Barton's lengthy article entitled:
Defending The Jefferson Lies: David Barton Responds to his Conservative Critics
https://wallbuilders.com/wp-content...vidBartonRespondstohisConservativeCritics.pdf
The above is open for discussion if anyone is interested in defending EX conservative Warren Throckmorton or other critics of Barton.