The fossil record shows there never was evolution.

[Sonnet]

Genesis isn't a science textbook. It isn't saying things were created in a chronological order. It's an allegorical story like other parts of the bible.

That's one view. Nothing in the texts says it's an allegory.

 

[Elia]

Yes - I have read about Gould and his P.E. theory before. Have there been any developments?

Bs"d

Not that I know of.

PE is an emergency measure in order to explain away the total lack of proof for evolution in the fossil record:

"The Eldredge-Gould concept of punctuated equilibria has gained wide acceptance among paleontologists. It attempts to account for the following paradox: Within continuously sampled lineages, one rarely finds the gradual morphological trends predicted by Darwinian evolution; rather, change occurs with the sudden appearance of new, well-differentiated species. Eldredge and Gould equate such appearances with speciation, although the details of these events are not preserved. .... The punctuated equilibrium model has been widely accepted, not because it has a compelling theoretical basis but because it appears to resolve a dilemma. Apart from the obvious sampling problems inherent to the observations that stimulated the model, and apart from its intrinsic circularity (one could argue that speciation can occur only when phyletic change is rapid, not vice versa), the model is more ad hoc explanation than theory, and it rests on shaky ground."


Ricklefs, Robert E., "Palaeontologists Confronting Macro Evolution," Science, vol. 199, 1978, p. 59


Robert E Ricklefs is an evolutionist and professor biology at the University of Missouri te St. Louis:

http://www.umsl.edu/~ricklefs

 

[SonOfCaleb]

That's one view. Nothing in the texts says it's an allegory.

Correct. Genesis is not allegorical. The early chapters detail the history of creation up to the creation of Adam and afterwards. Each creative 'day' or epoch is told and listed in chronological order, Gods creative works starting with the beginning of the preparatory works on Earth in the first day.
Genesis does not detail nor include the creation of the Universe or in fact the Earth (other than acknowledging their creation presuambly in the distant past but no more detail is provided) as part of the Creation account.

 

[Jonahdog]

elia, the master of cut and paste.

 

[CherubRam]

There's not a single scripture in the Bible that supports such errenous thinking. The Bible actually states that God is eternal having no begnning and no end. Psalm 90:2 "Before the mountains were born
Or you brought forth the earth and the productive land,
From everlasting to everlasting, you are God"

Unfortunately human thinking especially in philosphical and academic circles can be very linear applying the same 'known' scientific principles to everything, including God, which actually proves how limited human intelligience can be and explains why Science et al have such a difficult time accepting this Bible based fact.

[FONT=&quot]God Evolved [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Alpha First Beginning[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Isaiah 44:6
“This is what the Lord says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12
“Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 21:6
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.

Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Isaiah 43:10. "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD (Yahwah), "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no god formed, nor will there be one after me. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The missing links are missing because life did not evolve in this Universe.[/FONT]

 

[SonOfCaleb]

[FONT="]God Evolved [/FONT][/B]
[B][FONT="]Alpha First Beginning[/FONT][FONT="]

[URL="http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Isa%2044.6"]Isaiah 44:6[/URL]
“This is what the Lord says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12
“Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 21:6
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.

Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. [/FONT]

[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Isaiah 43:10. "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD (Yahwah), "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no god formed, nor will there be one after me. [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[B][FONT="]The missing links are missing because life did not evolve in this Universe.[/FONT][/B]

None of those scriptures support your argument. All they state is that God is the first and the last, which is indeed correct as he is eternal.

Moses said in prayer to Jehovah: “You have always been, and you will always be.” (Psalm 90:2, The Holy Bible, New Century Version). Revelation 4:10 tells us God is "the One that lives forever and ever" his existence stretching into the eternal future and the eternal past.

It should be self evident that the logic around the creation of the creator is spurious. As if God was indeed created than who created the creator that made God and so on and so forth. This kind of logic is flawed and demonsrates circular human 'reasoning'.

 

[CherubRam]

None of those scriptures support your argument. All they state is that God is the first and the last, which is indeed correct as he is eternal.

Moses said in prayer to Jehovah: “You have always been, and you will always be.” (Psalm 90:2, The Holy Bible, New Century Version). Revelation 4:10 tells us God is "the One that lives forever and ever" his existence stretching into the eternal future and the eternal past.

It should be self evident that the logic around the creation of the creator is spurious. As if God was indeed created than who created the creator that made God and so on and so forth. This kind of logic is flawed and demonsrates circular human 'reasoning'.

I guess you did not see the word "formed."

 

[alwight]

Bs'd


What is quote-mining?

"Quote-mining" is an expression, invented by evolutionists, who, because of cognitive dissonance, are unable to understand and/or accept the meaning of very clear, straightforward statements made by very scholarly evolutionists.

Because of that cognitive dissonance they become very irrational, and start saying absurd things, for instance, that somebody who quotes an evolutionist professor is a liar, and they cannot understand that then the one who made that statement is really the liar, because he is the one who made that statement in the first place.

They also claim that the statement is taken out of context, and that it really means the opposite of what it says.
When they are then confronted with the context, and it is then clear for everybody that the context doesn't change anything of the meaning of the quote, then they usually start attacking a straw man, meaning that they are going to "prove" something what was not a discussion subject at all. Then they start for instance saying that the one who made the quote believes in evolution, something that was never a point of dissension.
In the last stage they resort to name calling.

Of the above mentioned stages one or more can be skipped in a debate. The intellectually lesser gifted evolutionists usually immediately start name calling.

“Rabbi, you are using the old creationist trick of quote mining”​

And I say that when you quote expert opinions in your atheistic articles, you are guilty of “quote mining.” Gee, it seems we are at an impasse. What I am trying to illustrate, of course, is that the accusation of “quote mining” is childish and trivial. Not only does it not contribute to an adult-level exchange of ideas, but it actually inhibits such an exchange. It is perfectly valid to claim that a citation has been taken out of context … As long as you can back it up with a reasoned argument. If you have nothing more to contribute than hurling unsubstantiated accusations of “quote mining” please go back to high school and shoot spitballs and do all the other things that immature adolescents do.

I repeat: It is perfectly valid to claim that a citation has been taken out of context … As long as you can back it up with a reasoned argument. If you have nothing more to contribute than hurling unsubstantiated accusations of “quote mining” please go back to high school and shoot spitballs and do all the other things that immature adolescents do.

What is Spamming?
The above is ^!
(I'm not allowed to post links to other forums)

But I learnt something:

Eliyahu Bs"d The above is an abbreviation of the Aramaic expression "Ba siata desmaya", and that means: "With the help of Heaven".

:spam:

 

[SonOfCaleb]

I guess you did not see the word "formed."

I did. Like i said none of those scriptures support your argument. And if you think your argument is rationale then who or what, or what process created God....

 

[CherubRam]

I did. Like i said none of those scriptures support your argument. And if you think your argument is rationale then who or what, or what process created God....

If the words "first," "beginning," "alpha," and "formed" dose not work in your understanding, then there is nothing I can do for you.

 

[6days]

The Bible is not a book of Science.

The Bible is also not a psycholgy book, nor a history book. However when God's Word touches on areas of science, psychology, history etc.....We accept that as inerrant truth.

It tells is why, but doesnt explain 'how'

It does explain 'how'... or as much of the 'how' as we need to know. His Word tells us He spoke things into existence over the course of six days. His Word tell us He formed Eve from Adam's rib....etc

... the overall message and theme of the scriptures which is the vindication of Gods name and his reestablishment as the sole universal soverign.

Now that isn't scriptural is it? In fact it is heretical, although perhaps you just worded it poorly. God has always been the Soveriegn Ruler. He does not need to be reestablished

 

[Jose Fly]

I wonder who S.J. Gould was referring to when he said this?

Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists—whether through design or stupidity, I do not know—as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Now that isn't scriptural is it? In fact it is heretical, although perhaps you just worded it poorly. God has always been the Soveriegn Ruler. He does not need to be reestablished

Really....and yet Satan raised the issue of Universal Sovereignty in Eden which caused Adam and Eve to sin. If Jehovah God was recognized by ALL creation as THE Universal Sovereign then John 5:19 would have had no reason to say "but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one".

Matthew 4:8-9 "Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.  And he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me".

Luke 4:6 "Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish."

Its self evident from these scriptures that the Devil disputed Gods sovereignty and right to rule as he couldn't have offered Jesus any authority if it wasn't his to give. In fact its the Devil who is the current ruler of this world.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

If the words "first," "beginning," "alpha," and "formed" dose not work in your understanding, then there is nothing I can do for you.

No you can, by answering my question

who or what, or what process created God

using your unsound logic?

But i know you can't as your point of view doesn't stand up to scrutiny and is simply illogical as well as demonstrating a misunderstanding of the Bible. In fact Colossians 1:15 refutes your point as it says that Jesus is "the firstborn of all creation" further proving that God is indeed eternal just as Moses and Solomon said thousands of years ago.

 

[Elia]

I wonder who S.J. Gould was referring to when he said this?

Bs"d

Gould said: "Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups."

So it is clear enough that between species, there are no transitional forms.

He claims that there are between larger groups, but that is reasoning like: "Here we have a mouse, there we have a horse, and the dog is the transitional form in between them."

Again: Evolution is totally lacking in the fossil record.

 

[Jose Fly]

Gould said: "Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups."

So it is clear enough that between species, there are no transitional forms.

No. "Generally lacking" is not the same as "don't exist at all".

Again: Evolution is totally lacking in the fossil record.

How do you know? Just how much time have you spent studying fossil specimens and trends in the larger fossil record?

 

[Crucible]

It does remain a serious challenge to Christianity.

:doh: Having confidence in chance rather than the Maker is not a 'serious challenge' for Christianity. They are simply Hell bound for trying to turn people away from divine Creation.

Let the reprobates be reprobates. The theory of evolution is all about scapegoating on nature for man's sins.

 

[6days]

Really....and yet Satan raised the issue of Universal Sovereignty in Eden which caused Adam and Eve to sin. If Jehovah God was recognized by ALL creation as THE Universal Sovereign then John 5:19 would have had no reason to say "but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one".

Matthew 4:8-9 "Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.  And he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me".

Luke 4:6 "Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory,because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish."

Its self evident from these scriptures that the Devil disputed Gods sovereignty and right to rule as he couldn't have offered Jesus any authority if it wasn't his to give. In fact its the Devil who is the current ruler of this world.

I still don't know if you are wording things poorly..... or have fallen for cult teaching.

God always has been soverign. God always will be soveriegn. Satan can do nothing unless permitted by our Soveriegn God.

God allows Satan to roam to and fro, but God is still the Soveriegn Ruler. Satan can dispute God's soveriegnty, and so can you. But if you think that actually makes Satan soveriegn, you are heretical.

Colossians 1:15 refutes your point as it says that Jesus is "the firstborn of all creation" further proving that God is indeed eternal just as Moses and Solomon said thousands of years ago.

Again... it seems you couch your words to not reveal what you believe. Yes...God is eternal but are you saying that verse means Jesus was born, or created; therefore not God? Or, are you saying that "firstborn" is a title of Jesus, and that He is God? After all, Jesus can't be a created being and the creator of all creation

 

[Elia]

No. "Generally lacking" is not the same as "don't exist at all".

Bs"d

"The fossil record itself provided no documentation of continuity - of gradual transition from one animal or plant to another of quite different form."

Stanley, S.M., The New Evolutionary Timetable: Fossils, Genes and the Origin of Species, 1981, p. 40

S.M. Stanley is an evolutionist and professor at the John Hopkins university in Baltimore.
He wrote many articles, also together with Niles Eldredge, de co-inventor of the punctuated equilibrium theory.
One of his articles is “Paleontology and earth system history in the new millennium” which has been published in “Geological Society of America”

For more info about prof Stanley look here: http://www.jhu.edu/~eps/faculty/stanley/index.html#research

How do you know? Just how much time have you spent studying fossil specimens and trends in the larger fossil record?

Evolutionist experts on the fossil record tell me so.

For the finer details look here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/fossiles

 

[Elia]

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